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Rep system went bye bye?


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#26 Susan

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 11:13 AM

The Rep system works.

The only "problem" is stupid people who have extreme posts which multiple people dislike.


You don't see anyone complain when there's a post that has +20 likes do you? No. You don't. Because that post would have been written in an excellent way with good content and people like posts with meaning and good points.


The super-stupid posts by Droyd/Cydra were disliked a lot because they were retarded. Normally when someone doesn't like a post they will dislike it, this is normal.
See the big problem with it was that instead of giving Droyd/Cydra a warning saying "Hey, you're posting threads that are spam/trolling. Stop your shit or we will deny you posting-access."


That, would have worked. Hyping up someone to feel they are popular when they are really being hated and made a laughing-stock on a public forum by adding 10k likes to their account rep and challenging the other users to "see how long it takes to reach 0" is simply stupid.

Extremely bad judgment by whichever mod/admin did that.



No.

What happened was that the CM's realized that "Oh :D, we did something really stupid! Better remove everything and 'fix things' before they go further bad, redeeming us slightly in the process.".



What really happened is:

You're a person whom the operators of this forum saw that was getting some attention because your threads and posts were idiotic and were getting a lot of dislikes, they didn't realize that you are a stupid person; one operator thought he would be funny and/or smart and up your rep to ridicule the rest of the forum; This lead to you being disliked more than anyone on the entire forum with all members combined; Which lead to the operators going "oooh, it wasn't smart and/or funny after all", :waddle:; which is now your current situation.


I find it stupid that someone made this happen. I mean even if you have barely three braincells your common sense will kick in and you will think that "Oh doing that isn't smart, the consequences are unfortunate".



Seriously. You're the rebecca black of Warpportal forums.


i'd vote for you for moderator volunteer
sadly, people thinking and posting like you just get their posts edited and hello kitty answers to their posts, from moderators.


:)
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#27 Oda

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 11:40 AM

The system as it was was just encouraging bad behavior. Posters like Cydra posted to troll for negative votes, new posters were neg-shamed for asking questions and in general it made things more toxic than necessary. You can still up/downvote individual posts.
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#28 Xellie

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 11:43 AM

THIS IS WHY WE CANT HAVE NICE THINGS
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#29 Inubashiri

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 11:45 AM

THIS IS WHY WE CANT HAVE NICE THINGS


hahaha nice
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#30 AtlasThunderbeef

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 12:14 PM

I'm not a moderator figure. I like responsibility as much as the next guy, but my personality doesn't match the requirements to be a mod here.
In a few years, maybe.


But Oda the system does work. It gives users freedom to not like things, as well as like. It doesn't promote abuse, it promotes 'freedom of choice'.

The real 'problem' is people who are making multiple accounts and upping their own posts to look popular.


On other occasions, it's perfectly fine to give minus rep.
For example, since I log into Dragon Saga from time to time, I noticed their new Naruto-copies. They had changed them so they didn't have distinct markings such as the village-symbols, but that was it.

I asked "Is this legal? Can the gm's do that? Isn't it sketchy?" and got a huge amount of minus-rep as well as many negative posts with somewhat good points as to why they were in game.

They said things like "the models are changed, not the same" and "iRO has their Observer, DBZ anyone?", in a harsher tone but still, perfectly valid points.


The problem was; I didn't think that this is a common practice for games. iRO does it, everyone does it. I reacted because I felt thay "wow, this is a popular thing, it might get noticed by those who make naruto".
This minus rep didn't make me go baaw and press alt+f4, it made me think "oho, I guess they are right. Well the minus points are alright I guess. Kinda stupid question when I think about it a second time".



Now I'm doing a lot of quote and drawing similarities and using metaphors a bit. The main point is that the rep system works.


You can look at it from a negative view and think "It promotes abuse because people can minus just to minus".

Or from the positive; "It promotes cleverness and thinking, making people work on their posts so they get + rep instead of - rep."

If you think negatively you are of course taking into account the people who might abuse it and it's always better to be safe than sorry, but not thinking about the good things makes it stupid to have it in the first place.


And if someone makes 10 alt accounts to boost their rep with each post than they are way to much into foruming and taking it way too seriously, and you will notice that some users suddenly have a ton of rep without making too great posts, just average.

In the end, it's better to have the rep system, as users are more likely to listen to someone with a lot of + rep, or at least an amount of + rep, rather than someone with a ton of - rep.
An example? Anyone with + rep, and then a user with - rep, such as Cydra or Droyd.
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#31 Xellie

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 12:16 PM

But trolls always ruin it. I was getting minus repped by one girl on 4 accounts, but + rep but 20 different people. It only takes one idiot to ruin the good that can come from it.
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#32 weaseI

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 12:20 PM

What is a forum without a troll. I know, the old lame iro forum.
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#33 Oda

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 12:37 PM

What is a forum without a troll.

Nirvana.
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#34 Inubashiri

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 12:41 PM

What happened to the days when people actually used words to have a debate, I think people can decide for themselves whos bad and whos good. Anyways, the system did not promote democracy, but instead promotes a mob mentality that tears down the individuals deemed by the community to be 'not good enough,' whether legitimately or not, and prevents them from finding any way of redeeming themselves by constantly harassing them encouraging other users to do the same.
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#35 Anchors

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 12:44 PM

In the end, it's better to have the rep system, as users are more likely to listen to someone with a lot of + rep, or at least an amount of + rep, rather than someone with a ton of - rep.
An example? Anyone with + rep, and then a user with - rep, such as Cydra or Droyd.


Not gonna do the whole caustic ironic post thing I did on my last comment about the rep system since you did nothing to deserve it. In fact, you make a few salient points totally worth consideration. But I have to say, I completely, utterly disagree with the idea that a person should disregard or pay more attention to posts posted by users with whatever value of so-called reputation. I say this mostly because that one number doesn't do anything to describe the content of someone's post(s) other than to say, "someone liked this post," or, at least, "more users liked this post than users who didn't."

That one number won't tell you anything about whether the poster is a remarkable character builder, a hilarious jokester, an insightful problem-solver, a brilliant coder, whatever. A person can be a total idiot with regards to one topic and just amazingly helpful with another. But evaluate the content according to its content - not for whatever other people MAY have thought about that item or absolutely anything else that the poster posted.

TL;DR: Don't let an arbitrary little number make your decisions and judgements for you. :3
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#36 AtlasThunderbeef

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 01:07 PM

You might say that, but if you are a new guy coming onto the forums you will take notice of the numbers regardless.

It happens on a sub-conscious level as well as a conscious level.



This is common psychology nowadays, in a choice between two sides; one with 100 'rep' and one with 5 'rep' and the base content is pretty much the same, your instinct is to go for the one with the highest score.



I don't mean to sound pompous and whatnot now, but I believe the system works. It might not work "as intended", where you in a utopia would be able to control people and go "Thou shall use it but naught abuse!". But it does work when the users choose to.

Let it stay in I say. If someone does get massively disliked, then they might start thinking for once. Or they are being harassed by the other members of the community, if that is the case then it is the moderators task to control that, at least on the forums. Removing the rep-system removes a line of passive information on the forum, as well as a "Oh he has a lot of rep, he must be active and make a lot of posts", and the "Oh that person has a lot of bad rep, probably a troll".
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#37 Oda

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 01:11 PM

See, remove poster rep for just a few hours and the quality of discourse and debate is already improving. People arguing their points and peacefully disagreeing?

Dat's more like it!
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#38 Xellie

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 01:15 PM

Oh my god I got rep from Oda.

screw you guys and your + reps, mine is worth 10x any of anyone elses
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#39 Inubashiri

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 01:17 PM

See, remove poster rep for just a few hours and the quality of discourse and debate is already improving. People arguing their points and peacefully disagreeing?

Dat's more like it!



I agree, use words to debate, not plus and minus signs.

Oh my god I got rep from Oda.

screw you guys and your + reps, mine is worth 10x any of anyone elses


I gave you one earlier :)

Edited by Inubashiri, 04 August 2011 - 01:18 PM.

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#40 Kagrra

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 01:18 PM

I think the rep system was pretty useless, as it pretty much told people how to think about other people. Without it, it's easier to form opinions based on what you read opposed to their reputation. I'm pretty sure a person with any sense could tell a helpful post from a troll post ( most of the time >> ).
Also, a person with a low reputation could also have a low post count, but who would notice a post count with that attention grabbing green/red mark with reputation in it?

Also, I completely agree with Inu. :/
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#41 Anchors

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 01:35 PM

You might say that, but if you are a new guy coming onto the forums you will take notice of the numbers regardless.

It happens on a sub-conscious level as well as a conscious level.



This is common psychology nowadays, in a choice between two sides; one with 100 'rep' and one with 5 'rep' and the base content is pretty much the same, your instinct is to go for the one with the highest score.[1]



I don't mean to sound pompous and whatnot now, but I believe the system works. It might not work "as intended", where you in a utopia would be able to control people and go "Thou shall use it but naught abuse!". But it does work when the users choose to.

Let it stay in I say. If someone does get massively disliked, then they might start thinking for once. Or they are being harassed by the other members of the community, if that is the case then it is the moderators task to control that, at least on the forums. Removing the rep-system removes a line of passive information on the forum, as well as a "Oh he has a lot of rep, he must be active and make a lot of posts", and the "Oh that person has a lot of bad rep, probably a troll".[2]


[1]That's part of the problem, in my opinion. How do you prevent that kind of complacent thinking (at least, if the two sides are of different opinions) where a forumite simply follows a school of thought just because the user has a high rep on this particular forum? Granted, people are free to think (or not think) however they want, but I feel like the point of a good forum is insightful discussion, which is not just not encouraged but discouraged by a reputation system that fails to encapsulate any significant portion of qualifications for a positive reputation.

[2]I am in full agreement with your italicized statement. But what kind of passive information is described by that single number? It's impossible to tell whether a post is a reasonable contribution to a discussion or topic just by that number; either way, you have to read it. You can't even tell for certain that that number is indicative that the content of the post will be helpful, useful, interesting, whatever in any way in the context of the topic. Either way, you have to read it.

But encouraging people either TO read or NOT to read a post just based on that number isn't encouraging helpful or even plain active discussion. If you happen to post a point of view in a less-than-diplomatic way that goes against the grain and you get de-repped for it, does that mean you weren't making some kind of contribution to the topic at hand? This happened to you in your own anecdote; you posted a concern that the game might be placed in some kind of legal jeopardy due to whatever copyright issues you may have brought up. And then people torched you for it, yet clearly you're 1) just concerned about the game's legitimacy and 2) able to debate. Had I gone to that forum and saw a negative reputation not knowing that it was from this one kind of silly issue, should I have given your posts any less credit or consideration?

I admit that there are, without a doubt, users who would be ideal candidates for euthanasia (among other things), but the qualifier for that isn't that large red (or green) number under their name; it's the content of their posts. If you see such a person continually making enough trouble, you can of course simply ignore their posts. But other users shouldn't be making that decision for you in any way.

On a side note, I'm enjoying discussing this with you. Most folks don't write essays in each of their posts, ha ha.
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#42 slaves

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 01:36 PM

its good without it! coz some people are just messing with it
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#43 Tigra

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 01:36 PM

Posted Image
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#44 Mwrip

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 02:16 PM

I'm... neutral on this.

It did a good job of pointing out who the people were that regularly tried to help others (I was up to 300ish mainly from that). This was in turn good for newbies as they could tell in advance that someone with a large green number was very likely to be offering actual advice and not trolling.

Unfortunately, it also got used A LOT for people carrying out personal vendettas or playing the "how far into the negatives can we drive this guy" game. Cydra definitely made a few posts that deserved a few negs, but there's no way she should have had a -1000 or whatever absurd number the count was without CM intervention.
Edit: Then again, I only saw her posts that *didn't* get nuked by CMs, so it may have been a lot worse than I think.

Maybe when you click the + or -, you should have to select a reason.
For +:
-This was insightful.
-This helped me with an issue.
-This was funny.
-This provided useful information.
-This was creative or otherwise interesting.
For -:
-This is trolling.
-This is a flame.
-This is spam.
-This gives intentionally misleading information, and is not in jest.
-This duplicates a thread that's still on page 1.

Then, for the people who are regularly mis-flagging negs, take away their +/- rights, for a week, then a month, then permanently.

Edited by Mwrip, 04 August 2011 - 02:19 PM.

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#45 Nomad4Lyfe

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 02:18 PM

I always tried to use my +1's to counter posts that I thought didn't deserve being in the red. If someone is trying to discuss some class that could use some adjusting in a thoughtful manner, and is being downvoted by people saying "stop qqing", then I try to fix it. I'm pretty sure there were others with that mentality too, since I've seen posts come out of the red like this.


The only thing I still don't understand is this: why can't the mods just ban cydra from the forums? Do I have to submit a troll ticket with a screenshot?
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#46 Inubashiri

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 02:46 PM

I always tried to use my +1's to counter posts that I thought didn't deserve being in the red. If someone is trying to discuss some class that could use some adjusting in a thoughtful manner, and is being downvoted by people saying "stop qqing", then I try to fix it. I'm pretty sure there were others with that mentality too, since I've seen posts come out of the red like this.


The only thing I still don't understand is this: why can't the mods just ban cydra from the forums? Do I have to submit a troll ticket with a screenshot?


The worst thing mods can do is take away posting rights for a while/permanently. If someone is trolling, I recommend sending a PM to Oda with proof and let him decide. If its immediately needed then turn to a VM and we'll figure out something temp until a CM can deal with it.
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#47 TankHunter678

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 03:24 PM

On the League of Legends forums, the up vote down vote system which you guys used for rep was used in place of moderators.

If a post got to a certain level of -'s then the post was "minimized" like as if the forum went and put the entire post into a spoiler tag. If you wanted to read the post, you could click on it. If the Opening Post of a topic was put to this point, then the thread was closed.

Thus trolling threads, and troll posts in general were quickly locked or closed so that actual content could be looked at. While +'s generally just meant someone liked the post.

Here I did not see much point to the rep system, it was just a growing or deflating number with no purpose. Sure, when Cydra got to 10k rep by one of the mods and then we were challenged to see how fast we could - rep him I went and put a - on every cydra post cause well, we had a forum game around -ing Cydra.

Even though some of the posts I saw by Cydra, from my point of view before identifying him as a troll, actually lacked any semblance of trolling and provided valid opinions (enough to make me go "why is this post -30?") and information.
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#48 Xellie

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 04:44 PM

cydra is mad and down repping me!
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#49 DrAzzy

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 05:58 PM

I don't know what the point of forum rep is in general, to be honest, because the people who deserve good reputations won't give a rats ass about the rep system, whereas the trolls and n00bs* pay attention to it and try to game the system. Good riddens to it!

*n00bs, as in the obnoxious immature players, not newbies who are just new to the game.
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#50 Inubashiri

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 06:07 PM

*n00bs, as in the obnoxious immature players, not newbies who are just new to the game.


hahaha that made me laugh
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