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#26 GrapefruitGod

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 03:49 PM

Just pointing out, even with the new aim changes and new aim items, it's impossible to get more than 30% hit rate on an evade stacker.

And I do mean impossible.
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#27 Rimmy

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 04:07 PM

Key reason being the new Dexterity buff boost. It pretty much negated the AR increase.
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#28 Reviren

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 11:33 PM

Key reason being the new Dexterity buff boost. It pretty much negated the AR increase.


This somewhat puzzles me... Doesn't Dexterity also increase AR? Or does it increase it in lesser amounts relatively to ER?
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#29 GrapefruitGod

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 04:40 AM

Take someone with 900agi, now give them 40% of that for 15 minutes.
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#30 Nhat

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 06:00 AM

Take someone with 900agi, now give them 40% of that for 15 minutes.

Irrc, Dexterity buff only add 40% of your base agi and not your total agi.
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#31 Rimmy

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 07:39 AM

This somewhat puzzles me... Doesn't Dexterity also increase AR? Or does it increase it in lesser amounts relatively to ER?


Three problems with that:

1. Only thieves have access to Dexterity. It is a buff that affects party members, but if you happen to not have a thief on your team, you're out of luck.
2. Thieves benefit from Dexterity more than some other classes, b/c they can achieve a higher base Agi.
3. Even when you do get the Dexterity buff, it doesn't increase AR as much as ER. Why? Because players can stack much more ER % than AR %, because ER % can be soulcrafted on all normal/cash armor pieces (helm/top/bottom/boots/gloves), while AR % can only be soulcrafted on normal accessories and normal/cash weapons and back pieces. Also, you have to take into account the fact that classes like ninja/savage get a lot of extra Agi from things like the Hero Bone/Secmathian helms, which usually give somewhere around 50-65+ extra Agi, and from set bonuses, which offer another 60-80+ Agi. While this extra Agi may not be included in the Dexterity buff calculations, it's still extra Agi other classes can't get that pushes thieves' ER even higher and further polarizes the difference between AR and ER.

Irrc, Dexterity buff only add 40% of your base agi and not your total agi.


I believe you're right, but 40% of your base Agi is still a pretty big boost when you have 300ish+ base Agi. My assassin at level 55 has approximately 160 base Agi, so I'm figuring that once you add in the Agi for leveling from 55 to 60 and the extra 100 Agi you can obtain from extra stat points for 60-80, you're looking at 300-ish, or possibly more (if you use Bubo shoulders). That means receiving about 120 extra Agi just from the Dexterity buff.

Having said all that...

I think the problem with AR/ER is two-pronged. First, the discrepancy between AR % and ER % contribute to the problem as described above. Second, the fact that Str/Int provide limited bonuses compared to Hlt/Agi encourages pretty much everyone to stack Hlt/Agi to the max.

The stat discrepancy leads to people who are pretty hard to kill for one of two reasons: Either they have extremely high HP and they can heal most of the damage they take, or they have extremely high Agi and they can simply avoid most of the damage they would take if they were getting hit.

That introduces additional problems.

The healing route is only viable for mages, and locking can negate their ability to survive via heals (actually, with the huge increases in damage potential for some classes lately, even just normal combos can prove fatal).

The evade route is a bit more viable for most classes, but the only ones who can truly take advantage of game-breaking ER are thieves -- and TBH, savages are even pretty limited in that department, making ninjas the main issue. Ninjas get two passive skills that provide huge ER boosts (25-30%ish+ for each one, I believe), and they also can obtain almost a 25% Block Rate. So essentially, you have a situation where you only hit them when the ER cap forces it (20-30% of the time), and even when you do hit them, 25% of the time those "hits" will be blocked.

So in the end, for a ninja with maximum ER, you're looking at about a 15-23% chance to hit and successfully deal damage (depending on whether you consider the ER cap to be 20% or 30% -- there's some debate over this). And that's if you're lucky. If you're unlucky and the Block Rate kicks in a lot, the success rate is even lower than that.

EDIT: To expand the discussion even further...

Consider the "main" atributes of each class (we'll assume Hlt is the "secondary" attribute for every class):

Warriors: Str
Mages: Int
Archers: Agi
Thieves: Agi

Obviously, judging from the way set pieces and set bonuses are configured, the developers intended for each of these classes to focus on stacking their "main" attribute. For instance, warriors get set pieces/bonuses that offer extra Str, mages get some that offer extra Int, and archers/thieves get some that offer extra Agi (again, we're assuming most folks would probably stack Hlt as their "secondary" attribute for survival purposes).

Now look at the benefits provided by stacking each class's "main" attribute. How do you think a warrior stacking Str would fare against a thief stacking Agi?

It would be a slaughter, of course, b/c Agi provides better bonuses than Str.

Herein lies the problem: Under the current setup for Aim Rate and Evade Rate, every single class is forced to stack Agi in order to be able to hit (most) opponents (although there are some they'll never be able to hit with anywhere near a 100% hit rate).

This forces pretty much everyone to focus on Agi as a "main" attribute, and in turn tips the scales of balance in favor of classes which are best at stacking Agi (archers and thieves).

Currently, the only way counter to this imbalance a bit is to stack massive Hlt and HP % stats on a healing class (mage) with high defense -- and even that isn't a very effective counter, b/c all it does is give you a chance to survive. You have to try very hard not to get locked. If you do, you're done, but if you don't, you'll probably be able to outlast your opponent's MP (if they can use MP pots, you're done).

And while you might survive, you won't be able to kill an ER-stacking opponent, so all you're doing is manipulating the mechanics of the game to make yourself somewhat OP just to have a survival chance against another class that can manipulate the mechanics of the game to make itself even more OP.

In any case, ideally, the best solution to the AR/ER problem would probably be to vastly increase the benefits provided by Str/Int so that players would be forced to be more considerate of which stats they stack, perhaps opting to try to balance themselves out instead of extreme stacking in one direction or another.

But (and this has been said before), as long as the game favors Agi, it's going to favor ER, and that's going to break the game on at least some level.

Edited by Rimmy, 08 October 2011 - 08:04 AM.

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#32 GrapefruitGod

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 11:41 AM

Irrc, Dexterity buff only add 40% of your base agi and not your total agi.

Then explain to me how someone with 32x evade jumps to 46x evade after the buff
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#33 Nhat

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 01:21 PM

Then explain to me how someone with 32x evade jumps to 46x evade after the buff

Well i can't explain why that evade went up so much but i did go check on a couple of my char with dexterity and it only add that much % off my base agi. If you don't believe me then you can ask someone else to test it.
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#34 Yurai

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 01:36 PM

Then explain to me how someone with 32x evade jumps to 46x evade after the buff


Pretty sure you wouldn't jump up that much. The only way I see that happening is if 2 level 10 dexterity buffs were stacked together. I think the dex buff gave me around 40 evade. They probably had a whole bunch of other stuff up. If their evade is 460, then it's still possible to get more than 30% hit rate. I currently have 500 aim at level 71 without the special 5% aim IM helm and without the new secmanthian necklace for more agi/aim. I'd probably have around 550 aim at level 80, especially if I dropped some CD for more agi. I imagine that a sentinel would be able to get even more aim rate considering that their aiming buff still gives more aim than dexterity by far.

I do think that the aim:agi ratio should be fixed so it matches better with the evade, though. The aim rate increase on accessories is only a fix right now because it falls in pretty nicely with the amount of aim/evade provided at our current level.

Edited by Yurai, 08 October 2011 - 01:37 PM.

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#35 GrapefruitGod

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 02:36 PM

So it's come to my attention that amps still work in bsq. That's why his evade jumped so much.
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#36 Nolanvoid

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 11:53 AM

So it's come to my attention that amps still work in bsq. That's why his evade jumped so much.


I'll have to take a look into that.
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#37 GrapefruitGod

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 07:26 PM

Not sure if they're supposed to work in emporia either, but they definitely do work as of now
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#38 Yurai

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 01:47 PM

I actually think the amount of aim rate we are able to obtain now is a bit overkill.
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#39 Nolanvoid

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 04:18 PM

Not sure if they're supposed to work in emporia either, but they definitely do work as of now


It should have been fixed in the latest big patch.
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