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Balance of the Four Basic Stats


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#1 Rimmy

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 01:18 PM

Most players have generally come to the agreement that there is an inherent imbalance between the Strength/Intelligence stats and the Health/Agility stats. Generally everyone agrees that STR/INT are mostly useless, while HLT/AGI are much more useful.

What are your thoughts on this -- more specifically, what do you think should be done to balance them? Buff STR/INT and leave HLT/AGI alone? Nerf HLT/AGI and leave STR/INT alone? Or something else? Please share your thoughts.
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#2 StormHaven

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 01:31 PM

But Str so maybe it adds Armour ignoring dmg chance. or something
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#3 Yurai

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 02:53 PM

But Str so maybe it adds Armour ignoring dmg chance. or something


Your sentence is phrased a little weird, but I'm assuming that you mean that adding str will allow you to shred armor at a certain %?
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#4 Jumpluffspore

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 03:01 PM

Your sentence is phrased a little weird, but I'm assuming that you mean that adding str will allow you to shred armor at a certain %?

That's what I got from it. Maybe Int could shorten duration of status effects?
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#5 Reviren

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 03:06 PM

That's a good suggestion, might I also suggest that INT gives MP Recovery + and not %, and by high amounts so that MP Recovery becomes a more useful stat, when combined with MP Recovery %.
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#6 Kazu731

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 03:12 PM

Str adding raw damage would be perfectly swell in my eyes, but I don't agree that there should be opportunity for it to bypass armor either. If the ATK it would add would be scaled upwards considerably I think it would be good.

Int should do the same as Str but with MATK and such. I'd think it'd be a pretty nice addition if there were certain breakpoints that would add a small % of cast-time decrease or something. If CD wasn't so readily available I'd suggest the same thing at intervals in the Str formula as well.
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#7 Jumpluffspore

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 03:14 PM

Every 5 Str, .05% of target's defense ignored? Or is that too much...?
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#8 Reviren

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 03:15 PM

Str adding raw damage would be perfectly swell in my eyes, but I don't agree that there should be opportunity for it to bypass armor either. If the ATK it would add would be scaled upwards considerably I think it would be good.

Int should do the same as Str but with MATK and such. I'd think it'd be a pretty nice addition if there were certain breakpoints that would add a small % of cast-time decrease or something. If CD wasn't so readily available I'd suggest the same thing at intervals in the Str formula as well.


Lol, I always thought that STR and INT would add ATK and MATK. ><;
<- Fail
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#9 Jumpluffspore

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 03:20 PM

Str adding raw damage would be perfectly swell in my eyes, but I don't agree that there should be opportunity for it to bypass armor either. If the ATK it would add would be scaled upwards considerably I think it would be good.

Int should do the same as Str but with MATK and such. I'd think it'd be a pretty nice addition if there were certain breakpoints that would add a small % of cast-time decrease or something. If CD wasn't so readily available I'd suggest the same thing at intervals in the Str formula as well.

I suggested this because of the existing problem with +20 armors. However your idea works as well.
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#10 Rimmy

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 03:24 PM

That's what I got from it. Maybe Int could shorten duration of status effects?


Mm, an interesting idea. Alternatively, perhaps INT could be the foundation of new "Magic Aim Rate" and "Magic Evade Rate" stats. Working similar to Agility, perhaps Magic Evade Rate could give a % chance of avoiding status effects, and Magic Aim Rate could give you a better chance of bypassing that barrier on your opponents (similar to the way Aim Rate/Evade Rate work, but balanced perhaps according to Yurai's new formula, and working *strictly* for status effects, not damage). So say you have a thief with 200 INT shooting a level 10 Rocket Punch at a mage with 300 INT -- the RP would have roughly a 66% chance of taking effect. Keep in mind, to achieve high amounts of INT, players would have to sacrifice other stat stacking (HLT, AGI), so it might work out being decently fair. The way I see it, this would be an alternative for players who want to focus on a support role in combat, focusing on hitting enemies with or avoiding status effects rather than having top-of-the-line survivability or the ability to deal damage frequently. Anyways, just a thought.
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#11 Jumpluffspore

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 03:26 PM

Mm, an interesting idea. Alternatively, perhaps INT could be the foundation of new "Magic Aim Rate" and "Magic Evade Rate" stats. Working similar to Agility, perhaps Magic Evade Rate could give a % chance of avoiding status effects, and Magic Aim Rate could give you a better chance of bypassing that barrier on your opponents (similar to the way Aim Rate/Evade Rate work, but balanced perhaps according to Yurai's new formula, and working *strictly* for status effects, not damage). So say you have a thief with 200 INT shooting a level 10 Rocket Punch at a mage with 300 INT -- the RP would have roughly a 66% chance of taking effect. Keep in mind, to achieve high amounts of INT, players would have to sacrifice other stat stacking (HLT, AGI), so it might work out being decently fair. The way I see it, this would be an alternative for players who want to focus on a support role in combat, focusing on hitting enemies with or avoiding status effects rather than having top-of-the-line survivability or the ability to deal damage frequently. Anyways, just a thought.

You have transformed my idea into a beautiful use for the intelligence stat. I am in awe.
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#12 StormHaven

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 05:56 PM

Your sentence is phrased a little weird, but I'm assuming that you mean that adding str will allow you to shred armor at a certain %?


Yes that's what I meant exactly. lol
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#13 Maronu

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 08:38 PM

Imo, different classes should get a different amount of benefit for each stat. Str, Int, and even Agi should play more important roles in determining a characters total stats.

Changes I would make:
Block should reduce damage by a certain amount, determined by strength, instead of ignoring it completely. The characters will get different amounts of hp, mp, crit rating, evade, etc from different stats depending upon their class and level. Spells (attacks from mages) are treated differently and must be resisted instead of dodged. Base resistance works like magic evade and is determined mainly by int and slightly by agi. Base spell hit (mage aim) is determined similarly. Base aim (used for physical attacks) becomes slightly affected by int. Warmages deal higher damage, but become much more squishy. Priests become more squishy, but like warmages get the advantage of being able to land attacks more easily due to the addition of spell hit and resistance. Warmage's healing ability is slightly reduced to further balance their attack power. Adding resistance and spell hit would give more of a purpose to int!

Crit rate becomes a stat displayed on the menu. Mousing over your aim/spell hit, crit rating, or evade/resistance rating will display your % hit, % dodge, or % crit against characters or monsters with 0 evade or aim at your level. This percent is scaled by level; it takes more evade, aim, crit rate at higher level to get the same evade %, hit %, crit %, as it does at lower level. The highest value these stats can reach is capped based upon level and character class. This means it will not benefit you to stack evade rate, aim rate, or crit rate beyond a certain amount (however you may still benefit from stacking agi or int for attack bonus). Players will not obtain game breaking values in these stats, and characters will be encouraged to diversify their stats. The aim - evade formula is used, but you will get a more precise answer when using it. The formula is no longer approximate and is now done with %. There is an appropriate penalty or bonus to this percent for each level over or under you that the opponent or monster is (such as 2% per level). These keeps lower levels from getting any sort of advantage from the level scaling.

The additional attack from stats and hp from health increases with level. Currently hp already does this, but attack from stats does not and is also terribly underpowered.

Table showing benefits via class
(1 = below average bonus, 2 = average bonus, 3 = above average bonus)   	


Archer
Agi: increases physical attack power (3), increases crit rating (2), increases evade (2), increases aim (3), increases spell resistance (1)
Int: increases mp (2), increases spell resistance (2), increases aim (1)
Hlt: increases hp (2)
Str:

Thief
Agi: increases physical attack power (2), increases crit rating (3), increases evade (3), increases aim (2), increases spell resistance (1)
Int: increases mp (2), increases spell resistance (2), increases aim (1)
Hlt: increases hp (2)
Str: increases physical attack power (2), increases damage reduction on block (2)

Mage
Agi: increases crit rating (1), increases evade (1), increases spell hit (1), increases spell resistance (1)
Int: increases mp (3), increases spell resistance (3), increases spell hit (3)
Hlt: increases hp (1)
Str: 

Warrior
Agi: increases crit rating (2), increases evade (1), increases aim (2), increases spell resistance (1)
Int: increases mp (1), increases spell resistance (1), increases aim (1), increases evade)
Hlt: increases hp (3)
Str: increases physical attack power (3), increases damage reduction on block (3)

Edited by Maronu, 15 August 2011 - 08:42 PM.

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#14 Rimmy

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 09:11 AM

Good ideas, Maronu, I like. I especially like the table, and agree with pretty much everything in it as far as which classes should benefit most/least from each stat.
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#15 Reviren

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 09:24 AM

The only thing I noticed that was missing is magical attack increase from INT for Mage. Since there's physical attack from STR, why not magical attack from INT? o.o
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#16 MVPq

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 06:42 PM

How about... the more STR you have the more 'armor penetration' you would get? This is a longshot... but here's an example.

I have 300 STR, I get 20% armor penetration.
The enemy has 10000 DEF.
When I attack them with my armor penetration, my attacks will 'penetrate' through there armor so its like they only have 8000 armor.

I don't know how well this would work, but I got this idea from another game.
The example is no where good, it would need a lot of balancing.

I'm just giving an idea.
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#17 GrapefruitGod

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 06:46 PM

Then no one would be laughing at my near 300 int :handshake:
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#18 Jumpluffspore

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 07:44 AM

How about... the more STR you have the more 'armor penetration' you would get? This is a longshot... but here's an example.

I have 300 STR, I get 20% armor penetration.
The enemy has 10000 DEF.
When I attack them with my armor penetration, my attacks will 'penetrate' through there armor so its like they only have 8000 armor.

I don't know how well this would work, but I got this idea from another game.
The example is no where good, it would need a lot of balancing.

I'm just giving an idea.

This was mentioned twice on this thread.
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#19 Endbringer

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 08:08 AM

I like the concept of Maronu's idea. But some of the subclasses are polar opposites(by definition, not by current practice) So that seems silly to let pallys be so offensive, or myrms gaining block rate from str. Perhaps breaking it further down to subclasses would work better.

Also, no Crit rate/magic attack from int for mages?
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#20 Nolanvoid

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 12:04 PM

I like the concept of Maronu's idea. But some of the subclasses are polar opposites(by definition, not by current practice) So that seems silly to let pallys be so offensive, or myrms gaining block rate from str. Perhaps breaking it further down to subclasses would work better.

Also, no Crit rate/magic attack from int for mages?


I would also agree with Endbringer here. A Dragoon, "should" be by nature more of the defensive class more than the offensive class. Where as the Overlord should be the Offensive warrior. Therefore, the breakdown would need to go further as Endbringer has stated.
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#21 Rimmy

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 05:56 PM

Yeah, good point, Endu.

However, I'd like to caution against us trying to force every class into a hard-and-fast role with no real room for creative builds. I agree that each class should be encouraged to play a certain role, but I also believe players should have some freedom to experiment and come up with successful builds that stray a bit from the norm. That is, give players good class advantages if they try to fulfill their sub-class's role, but also give them the freedom to stray from it a bit and maybe stretch their role somewhat. If you make stat bonuses too class-dependent, you might end up forcing everyone of a certain class to play with more or less the same stats, leading to many characters who end up being almost identical. Really, I just think that PvP should give players freedom to explore and customize a bit. Gear customization helps somewhat, but will inevitably rely on the stat system in place.

Edited by Rimmy, 19 August 2011 - 05:59 PM.

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#22 Nolanvoid

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 06:00 PM

Yeah, good point, Endu.

However, I'd like to caution against us trying to force every class into a hard-and-fast role with no real room for creative builds. I agree that each class should be encouraged to play a certain role, but I also believe players should have some freedom to experiment and come up with successful builds that stray a bit from the norm. That is, give players good class advantages if they try to fulfill their sub-class's role, but also give them the freedom to stray from it a bit and maybe stretch their role somewhat. If you make stat bonuses too class-dependent, you might end up forcing everyone of a certain class to play with more or less the same stats, leading to many characters who end up being almost identical. Really, I just think that PvP should give players freedom to explore and customize a bit. Gear customization helps somewhat, but will inevitably rely on the stat system in place.


That depends more so on what the other stats do for the class. So once you go ahead and breakdown the classes to more defined base stats, the other stats play a role in specialization. It definitely gets more sensitive, the further you go.
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#23 StormHaven

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 06:08 PM

As much as I like Monaru's idea it'll just make the game more cookiecutter than it already is at this point.
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#24 Jumpluffspore

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 06:09 PM

I'd like to get some confirmation that WP would be able to implement these suggestions, because as wonderful as they are; a few of them seem hard to implement and seeing as how they are the provider and not the publisher I don't think they can make these changes, but merely suggest programming changes to gravity/barunson.
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#25 Rimmy

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 06:14 PM

Yeah, it will be tricky, but I think we can come up with something. Maronu's idea was a great start, now we just need to take it to the next level and break it down again, see how it works out, and then we can think about fine-tuning the system. Maronu, would you care to add a breakdown for sub-classes, or would you mind if someone else takes a whack at it? I ask b/c I don't want you to feel like someone else is running off with your idea, but at the same time I'd love to keep this conversation going and trying to come up with a good "final" suggestion that we could perhaps pass along to the developers.

Edit: @Jumpluffspore: True that the developers probably won't make the exact changes that we propose, but I don't think it'll hurt to throw some ideas at them -- especially if it's clear that they're well-thought-out and include input from some dedicated players.

Edited by Rimmy, 19 August 2011 - 06:18 PM.

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