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Making Gfist Balance


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#26 Gantrithor

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 05:51 AM

Saftey Wall is getting changed to no longer have overspill damage and GFist is going to be nerfed. If I remember correctly, Heimdallr said we should be starting to get the kRO balance patches in April May June July August.
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#27 Kadelia

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 06:06 AM

yea nerf fist,
if you nerf fist the whole game will be balanced, no more OP.
Mvp scene will be fixed because acid bomb sucks and so does dragon breath and clashing and every other skill anyway!
No more suras fisting me in woe/pvp because i suck at hiding and playing my class.
best of all: no more getting oneshot in woe!!

why buff other classes?
just
nerf nerf

narf

strange, it sounded sarcastic but almsot everything you said was true. Weird.

Guillotine fist (solo) is like 2x+ the DPS of the next best thing, acid bomb, and like 20x better DPS than dragon's breath (lol).

Hiding to get away from gfist only works when you're not under fire, requires a lot of reaction speed/coordination which many people (myself included) do not have, and doesn't work with cursed circle, which is nearly the only time you'll get gfisted these days anyway. basically you're talking out your rump roast.

And yes, nerfing top tier makes more sense than buffing low tier, because buffing 3rd classes raises the disparity from the previous class tier (2nd/trans) and skews MVP/PVM balance. Again, sounds like you were being sarcastic, but that can't be the case because I don't think you could really be that ignorant of some really basic concepts with math and the like.

Also it sounds like you are sarcastically defending 1 shot in woe; there are a few things that can do it, ranging from Gate of Hell on low HP classes to Storm Blast in certain situations, and yes, people want these skills scaled back, because this is an RPG, not a first person shooter. Headshots and respawning every 5 seconds sets the bar way too high and causes few people to play. There are more players on slower-paced PVP games like WoW for a reason.

To summarize: I agree with most of what you said, and if you're being sarcastic you should go outside instead of trolling by trying to defend a bad game from becoming a good game.

I have no problem with gfist being the only 1 shot skill in the game, else there would be problems with people being neigh impossible to kill. I was more or less making fun of your faux intelligent narcissistic attempt at sarcasm.

Edited by Jaye, 24 August 2011 - 06:20 AM.

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#28 Gantrithor

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 06:16 AM

Don't forget Ruwach!
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#29 asayuu

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 06:17 AM

Oh, I know. Just decrease Sura's SP mod to the same as the RK's SP mod. This way monks and champions will not be affected.

This may be "sufficient" to "fix" Guillotine Fist.
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#30 Kadelia

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 06:33 AM

Regarding MVPs;

I could see a lower SP mod on Sura being helpful, as old SP gear seems really crummy in comparison currently (diab rings, maestro, etc), and the large SP potions (from genetic) etc would become more vital of the base SP were lower. Pretty much any % reduction to SP is a similar reduction to gfist anyway. Lowering the SP total of Sura by some 25% or so would make it so that gfist would only be 1.5x the DPS of acid bomb solo, which might be a little more fair(?) that's sort of uncertain, since acid bomb is clearly better with party support (magic strings & sacrament together). Dubious as to how much better gfist should be at soloing mvps than acid bomb when acid bomb's dps is higher in a party. Though it is unquestionable that gfist/wingingortanking allows you to kill more mvps easier solo than acid bomb or any other skill really. Its probably too good by any account. Lifestream on MVPs could resolve this too, but might be wayyyyy too annoying for parties. Soon as you wipe, progress is reset. heh.
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#31 DarkDan

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 06:42 AM

I doubt this happens. They could put a 10 sec cast delay for Gfist maybe but not allowing sp pots for 10 sec after you Gfist is insane. If you Gfist you pretty much die. Kind of like a mech self destruct skill lol.

Maybe they could break down how much SP a Gfist consumes. 5 spheres does a quarter sp used, 10 spheres half and 15 spheres full. :blaugh:

Definitely do not put changes into pvm. Sura is a killer class. Should be able to compete for MVP.

Edited by DarkDan, 24 August 2011 - 06:45 AM.

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#32 Daray

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 08:25 AM

<snip>
Hiding to get away from gfist ... requires a lot of reaction speed/coordination which many people (myself included) do not have
<snip>
...respawning every 5 seconds sets the bar way too high and causes few people to play. There are more players on slower-paced PVP games like WoW for a reason.
<snip>
...you should go outside instead of trolling by trying to defend a bad game from becoming a good game.
<snip>
I have no problem with gfist being the only 1 shot skill in the game, else there would be problems with people being neigh impossible to kill.



Bold parts show that you are clearly very bias when it comes to Gfist.
Just because - YOU - are too slow/lazy to hide from it or work on becoming fast enough to hide it doesn't remove Hide as a counter for Gfist.
Just because - YOU - think WOW pvp is slow-paced, doesn't make it so. Ever thought that maybe it was just you not being that good in WOW pvp/arena either?
Just because - YOU - think respawning every 5 seconds sets the bar too high, and that this is because of Gfisting. Let me tell you this, it kills 1 person, look at other classes and skills that take out almost entire (medium field) guilds. (tip for an example: look at RKs)
Just because - YOU - think not nerfing Gfist is a bad idea, doesn't mean that this person has a bad idea. Your personal vision is not what this game or community is built around. Also nice job insulting the poster.

In this and your next post you constantly contradict yourself, and I don't see the purpose of your posts. You're all over the place.
Lowering the SP mod as a whole would be a horrible idea,...

Also I'd like to point out that if you think that the competitive MVP scene allows you to tank/wing and wait for 10 seconds after a fist and still win, you're sorely mistaking.
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#33 fgabriel26

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 08:34 AM

just cap dmg to 33% of on mvp and there will be competitions
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#34 GhostShadow

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 08:36 AM

Yanzan made very good point with this, G-Fist for PVP & woe may be needed, however do not touch this for MVP & PVM people will not mass QUIT!
Don't agree with the Saftey wall aspect of this issue, if you mess with saftey wall you will screw other Melee class, not cool when trying to balence things out.
3rd class should be using 3rd class skills in woe & pvp, personaly I would have made GoH 3x3 very small AOE not too OP, yet makes people want to use it more than G-Fist,
I would like to say make GoH Ghost Property, but people would complain too much, especialy if they have & rely on Ghost Ring armor, not to mention give a new area of MVPs
that other classes rely on for income that this game already makes very difficult for its players.
but I'll say it again, if they screw with G-Fist for MVP, that will make many people quit, this is a fact.

Edited by GhostShadow, 24 August 2011 - 08:40 AM.

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#35 Andini

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 08:41 AM

whether or not gfist in a pvm settings is overpowered or not is one thing, but mvps are a joke. there is no mvp that you can't solo in renewal. even morroc prerenewal required at least 2 people dualing some clients. now he's like the orc hero of prerenewal.

Posted Image


more like

Posted Image

Edited by Andini, 24 August 2011 - 08:45 AM.

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#36 GhostShadow

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 08:49 AM

I'm not with you on this one Yanzan.
People tend to forget there is a high-cost upkeep with playing a Sura. (currently 180K to 200K zeny per fist)
Also don't forget the gear needed to perform and kill well is quite on the expensive side. (counts for both PVM as WOE)
I'm also quite sure they plan to implement the "cooldown" on all maps, making playing a Sura aside from expensive also not worth it anymore for PVM.

I play iRO for the class diversity, it keeps the game interesting. If I wanted homogenised classes, I'd have stayed in another MMO. There are enough ways to counter a Sura.

By the way, I don't see how you're even so much affected by Gfist, you just hide and Sirens them in WOE, right? :blaugh:
You have a sura Gfist with Gloomy card armor on a certain high-end MVP, right? :sigh:
I guess that by the time this patch comes in, you guys will be rich enough not to care anymore. But that doesn't mean everyone will be.
And having to level a new character just because they broke the one I invested in (both time and money) is not something I'm so sure I'm willing to do at this point. Not sure about the others.


PS: I bet that once this nerf goes in, people will start saying 'nerf GOH', 'nerf KA', 'nerf combo GFist' and 'nerf TC'. A week later threads will pop up 'NERF MENTAL STRENGTH!!!!'. People will always find something to complain about <insert any class here>.


I think you misunderstand, there is a nerf comming, yanzan is trying to do damage control before it happens and Gravity shoots them self in the foot by pissing off many players, and having a mass quit seen. This is the purpose of this thread.

Edited by GhostShadow, 24 August 2011 - 08:51 AM.

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#37 JAYRAD

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 08:56 AM

5-10 seconds of cool down, only on g-fist is what needs to be done.
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#38 Susan

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 09:25 AM

:blaugh:

ok let me clear things out
you can hate all you want on my opinion, ONCE you understand it :sigh:
  • In my opinion Acid bomb is comparable good to gfist, because it's long range dmg and spamable, and dragon breath is superior to gfist, on ghost monsters.
  • I never said i support the way CC+Gfist works, this thread is about gfist only.
  • I have no idea what rump roast means.
  • I think especially magic attacks need a buff, instead of nerfing other skills. personal opinion. Unless you think nerfing gfist ends up in warlocks becoming more useful in mvp/pvm, but again, i personally don't think so.
  • i don't like lame one shot skills that require no skill, sorry if i didnt point that out very clear.

strange, it sounded sarcastic but almsot everything you said was true. Weird.
...
To summarize: I agree with most of what you said, and if you're being sarcastic you should go outside instead of trolling by trying to defend a bad game from becoming a good game.
...
I was more or less making fun of your faux intelligent narcissistic attempt at sarcasm.


please do not take any posts i make as personal insults. i have no interest in insulting anybody, not even when i troll or use sarcasm.
My english sucks, i'm european, no worse, austrian. Count that in.
Also i would like to say that i only state my personal opinion and do not think that i'm right even close to all the time.

Besides, i used sarcasm on the internet, just about how smart (or serious) do you think i am?
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#39 Daray

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 09:53 AM

I think you misunderstand

I did, and Yanzan and me talked about it on vent, no biggy.
I left my post because it did contain some decent argumentation about why it shouldn't get nerfed even more - if even that.
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#40 Mefistofeles

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 10:05 AM

actually i hate more storm blast than gfist.... but theres a update that half the damage from that rune XD I LOVE THAT PATCH!
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#41 Dreimdal

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 10:09 AM

People wouldn't ragequit this game if they would just accept it and be grateful for it and stop complaining about something new every maintenance.

Grateful? For what? Like people are going to sit back and say "Thank you for making this game less fun to play!" That's asinine. People don't play games in order to suffer, they do it for enjoyment. Customers giving feedback about a product is natural and common. You might not like it, but that's how the world works.

And lol, hypocrisy. Telling people to stop complaining when your very post does the same thing.

If people want to QQ, so what? Let them, because it ain't gonna hurt you. Just "accept it and be grateful for it".


Rest assured, GFist won't be nerfed. It's actually supposed to be a one-hit kill attack (unlike some other one-shot skills).

Edited by Dreimdal, 24 August 2011 - 10:11 AM.

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#42 Fibrizzo

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 10:09 AM

If Gfist was nerfed (damage wise) rk's wouldn't really die to anything, bar deathbound.

lol


Indeed. And Royal Guards too.

Thank you Green Ales!!
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#43 DieNasty

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 10:25 AM

Indeed. And Royal Guards too.

Thank you Green Ales!!



If this is true then I can finally bully those Suras with my Crush Strike/Storm Blast. Muahahaha I feel OP already.
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#44 Sebastien

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 10:46 AM

small 3~5s cooldown on just gfist and fix safetywall.. the 10s sp item cooldown was and always will be a horrible idea

Edited by Sebastien, 24 August 2011 - 11:16 AM.

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#45 huad

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 01:27 PM

How to stop a G.fist
1.) G.fist can be interrupted, so just poke them with a quick attack or provoke. Most of the time, people are casting AoE so it's hard to G.fist people during WoE.

2.) Dispel ==> no more fury ===> no G.fist

3.) Mandragora Howling ==> ridiculously slow cast time ==> easily interrupted G.fist

4.) Spell Breaker while the Sura is casting G.fist

5.) Spiritual Sphere Absorption ==> no spheres ==> no G.fist

6.) Leech End ==> G.fist is constantly interrupted and Zen will also be interrupted ==> cannot gain spheres nor get a g.fist off

7.) Blood sucker ==> G.fist is constantly interrupted and Zen will also be interrupted ==> cannot gain spheres nor get a g.fist off

8.) Inflict freezing status ==> slow cast time ==> easy to interrupt G.fist/Zen

9.) IF you're an RK, cast Deathbound.

10.) If you're an RG, just put reflect damage and whatever other OP skills you guys have.

11.) Divest the Sura ==> no weapon ==> no G.fist

12.) Break the sura's weapon ==> no weapon ==> no G.fist

13.) White imprison, manhole, masquerade weakness, blah blah blah


I'm sure there's more. I just thought of those all right now, so please stop the QQ'ing. I personally play a Sura and when I WoE against people that actually know how to WoE, it's hard for me to get a G.fist off, even with CC+G.fist. If you're QQ'ing about CC+G.fist combo, it's probably b/c you PVP all day and we all know that PVP is trash.

Yes, playing a Sura is expensive. 180k per G.fist. What other class requires 180k for 1 chance at a kill?

Suras and MVPs. Again, it's expensive to G.fist. Also, Suras can't do jack against Ghost. There are other classes that are great at solo'ing MVPs too, so why are you targeting the Suras? Are you on a crusade to stop everyone from solo'ing MVPs?

Edited by huad, 24 August 2011 - 01:30 PM.

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#46 Mefistofeles

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 02:13 PM

rising dragon makes fury un-dispell-able
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#47 Viri

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 02:22 PM

rising dragon makes fury un-dispell-able


THIS IS WHERE I COME AND TELL YOU THIS IS WRONG. AGAIN.
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#48 Andini

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 02:37 PM

@ huad - there are so many things wrong with your post game mechanic wise and in a general sense. all in all though, i agree with you that gfist is not overpowered in a woe setting

Edited by Andini, 24 August 2011 - 02:39 PM.

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#49 Sebastien

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 02:46 PM

Point is it's a 1 shot almost everytime when meg'd even with deviant/ghostring/energy coat/feather beret/combat knife/foods/hp pot/maybe even revitalize and the cast is fast enough with secrament and +9 kvm fist that interrupting it is nearly impossible; especially if they speed pot constantly... which they are.

Some of the counters you listed are more viable than others. Spell breaking a full speed gfist is a little ambitious. Howling is broken and stops everyone in their tracks. Spiritual spirit absorption casts slow enough that they can get the gfist off before you take their spheres. Leech ending a sura seems only viable with deadly infect from a chaser; and for sure they have to back up and get antidote/clearance with that one. Blood sucker isn't that great of a counter in woe; doesn't last long and the sura still has options to deal with you if the geneticist doesn't have some back-up. Freezing status they clear themselves with gentle touch cure; and later on the arch bishops will take care of that status easily. Rune knights deathbounding will be a double kill everytime probably unless the sura isn't geared properly. Royal guards need to be masquerade weakness'd first to deal with them anyways so they just get cursed circled first unless the sura's willing to die to reflect for a potential kill. Masquerades are broken and can crush anyone. Breaking the sura's weapon isn't an option considering kvm weapons. White imprison, manhole, and dispell can all be countered with a gtb shield and when they are speed potting constantly to get a kill it can get difficult to target.

I don't know what your sura's name is huad, or whether or not you've been participating in the higher end WoE alliance and GvG battles.. the suras are pretty smart and fast. Forcing them to rotate to other skills for a short period of time wouldn't be a bad thing in my opinion.
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#50 Viri

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 03:00 PM

So all the ways to "beat" a class you'll just write off as "broken" such as masquerades and howling. k
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