66 replies to this topic

[StormHaven]

I have 100eva without my guardian on. 90% of ppl can not hit me. zzzz

Edited by StormHaven, 25 August 2011 - 08:57 AM.

[SpringSky]

Edited by SpringSky, 25 August 2011 - 09:12 AM.

[EnderW]

I have 100eva without my guardian on. 90% of ppl can not hit me. zzzz

are you kidding?

maybe I've just had a much easier time getting aim crafted :/

With my guardian gear all off I have 336 aim and 158 evade

Granted not all of that will count in PvP as some of my gear (most) is expanded (but not to the max level it can be expanded too yet)

Guess my trip balloon could be next on the "oh it's a bug" list

Edited by EnderW, 25 August 2011 - 09:05 AM.

[Maronu]

Yep forget evade it's so broken, let's just +20 our armor and mess with the broken damage formulas. IIRC the difference between atk and def is a gigantic steep as well. Sure people rely on evade to pvp but what about people that rely on their defense, then they are super skilled?. I mean how much damage can a +20 weapon do on someone with +20 armor? I suggest nerfing evade formulas not make it completely useless with this accessory buff.

This. Evade can be bad, but defense that is too high to deal with and classes with heals are pretty bad as well. Both my characters are squishy against those who have a decent hit rate on them, and this change probably means that pretty much everyone will be hitting me 100%. Maybe the game balances are part of a larger set of changes that we haven't yet seen yet (considering WP doesn't give us any warning in advance about anything), but right now, I'm wondering how much thought went into this...

[Coolsam]

I have 100eva without my guardian on. 90% of ppl can not hit me. zzzz

224 aim and never had guardian set. Problem?

[StormHaven]

are you kidding?

maybe I've just had a much easier time getting aim crafted :/

With my guardian gear all off I have 336 aim and 158 evade

Granted not all of that will count in PvP as some of my gear (most) is expanded (but not to the max level it can be expanded too yet)

Guess my trip balloon could be next on the "oh it's a bug" list

mines not even expanded :|

[EnderW]

to be honest the expanding I have done has helped my aim more so far I think hero bone earring is just nuts for aim (over 20% total 13% special option) and my kimart (14.8% only expanded to x1.3)

Edited by EnderW, 25 August 2011 - 09:14 AM.

[Rimmy]

Fair enough I don't think the evade on armors really adds up to much though it's 9% at the high end which is almost the same as aim on rings/earring/necklace now to say nothing of backs/weapons which can get more I think over all it's already close to being balanced and that the removal of stats from the guardian sets should be enough to bring it back into line without this double aim being needed (I use both the fire back and water gloves (+10 evade on each) and without any of my guardian gear on my evade drops by almost 100 points to a level were pretty much anyone with just a little aim could hit me (granted I don't have evade on all of my equips that can get evade)

Evade on armor doesn't add up to much? See, I disagree.

Helm + Chest + Bottoms + Shoulders + Gloves + Boots = 6 items. 6 items x 9% Evade Rate = 54% Evade Rate.

If you take cash gear into account, you could have anywhere from 12%-30% Evade Rate on those armor pieces, as well (depending on whether you use Guardian level 20 pieces or the other level 1 pieces, 2-5% ER on each piece).

So that's a total of about 84% extra Evade Rate max, just from armor pieces. The change to accessories should mean a max of 32-40% extra Aim Rate (depending on whether or not belts get counted as accessories in the change), not even covering half of that.

As for extra Aim Rate on backs/weapons... You can get a max 12.2% AR on a back (blizzard muffler), which is about even with the 12% ER you can get on a back, so that balances itself out. The only "extra" source of soulcraft option Aim Rate is weaponry, which (if you take both normal and cash gear into account) works out to about 10% AR + 18 AR, total. Add that to the 40% from the change, and ER is still superior to AR.

That doesn't take into account the fact that Agility inherently favors Evade Rate over Aim Rate, either. Observe (taken from the IAH Attributes guide):

Accuracy = (100 + AGI * 0.12) * (100% + ACCp) + ACCb
Where;
AGI = Total AGI
ACCp = Total ACC% from Equipments/Medal/Skill/Etc.
ACCb = Total ACC+ (pure points) such as from weapons with ACC + 16.0 or Skeleton Bandage's ACC +5.0

Evasion = (AGI * 0.14) * (100% + EVAp) + EVAb
Where;
AGI = Total AGI
EVAp = Total EVA% from Equipments/Medal/Skill/Etc.
EVAb = Total EVA+ (pure points) such as from Kestrel Set Bonus' Evade Rate +11.0

The key difference is the .02 difference between the first parts of each equation. But that .02 means that as Agility continues to climb higher, the rate at which ER outpaces AR will continue to increase (under the current formula).

Of course, there is also a 100+ in front of Aim Rate, which more or less acts as the pure value of base Aim Rate (this was necessary because you need to have 100 Aim Rate to hit 0 Evade Rate).

EDIT: I can't seem to find a source that lists the hit rate % formula, but according to tests on multiple servers, it's generally accepted that you need 100 more Aim Rate than your opponent's Evade Rate to have a 100% hit rate.

Edited by Rimmy, 25 August 2011 - 10:40 AM.

[Endbringer]

Thank you for going to the trouble to do that Rim, i was going to do that myself but you beat me to it.

[Kazu731]

Fighters have a buff for 200% Evade when the skill is level 3/3.

Edited by Kazu731, 25 August 2011 - 10:19 AM.

[Coolsam]

Fighters have a buff for 200% Evade when the skill is level 3/3.

They also have temp. 100% block rate buffs. C-c-c-c-combo breaker?

[EnderW]

Fair enough rim I respect your opinion.

I think overall there's more balance issues than just evade and aim though lets throw crit damage into the mix and the fact that pallies in particular can stack a hell of a lot more of it than anyone else how is that fair? I've always thought of my savage's easier time stacking agi/evade/aim as making up for that and now that one advantage is being taken away

I think we can all agree that pallies are already too OP and that the devs need to stop buffing them right?

[StormHaven]

Fair enough rim I respect your opinion.

I think overall there's more balance issues than just evade and aim though lets throw crit damage into the mix and the fact that pallies in particular can stack a hell of a lot more of it than anyone else how is that fair? I've always thought of my savage's easier time stacking agi/evade/aim as making up for that and now that one advantage is being taken away

I think we can all agree that pallies are already too OP and that the devs need to stop buffing them right?

fighters and summoner's stomp all over pallies.

[EnderW]

fighters and summoner's stomp all over pallies.

and my reaction to that is as follows: Great fix a big problem by making a bigger one

[Rimmy]

Fair enough rim I respect your opinion.

I think overall there's more balance issues than just evade and aim though lets throw crit damage into the mix and the fact that pallies in particular can stack a hell of a lot more of it than anyone else how is that fair? I've always thought of my savage's easier time stacking agi/evade/aim as making up for that and now that one advantage is being taken away

I think we can all agree that pallies are already too OP and that the devs need to stop buffing them right?

Without going too far off-topic, I completely agree. There are indeed a lot of balance issues across all classes, and it certainly isn't fair to expect only Evade Rate-dependent classes to take a hit -- and this is a significant blow to them, albeit not as earth-shattering as some are making it out to be, IMO. But unfortunately, it seems that since the developers are extremely busy preparing new content all the time, we're going to have to work our way forward slowly, tackling one or two balance issues at a time.

Also, while I understand it may be frustrating, please try to keep an open mind about the accessory changes, at least until we test it out in New Origins to see if adjustments need to be made. I fully realize that this will mean Evade Rate isn't as valuable as it once was, but I think you'll find that thieves, especially, are getting some excellent buffs that will put them in the upper tiers in PvP (ninja crit buffs, and pretty much all the savage buffs), IMO. Also, keep in mind that while it will be easier for enemies to hit you, it will also be easier for you to hit your enemies -- this is a buff/nerf that will both help and hurt you, which is better than one that just hurts you.

To take the matter concerning doubling accessory Aim Rate even further, I've already done some calculations and, TBH, I have to agree that it might be just a bit excessive based on the initial numbers I'm seeing. But everything is dependent on so many widely variable factors, it's difficult to tell for certain what impact this will have until we witness it for ourselves. If it's obvious that this change is too harmful, I'm sure we can always decrease the Aim Rate % bonuses on accessories a bit until we find a balance that is sufficiently fair to everyone.

[StormHaven]

and my reaction to that is as follows: Great fix a big problem by making a bigger one

just because they can beat pallies doesn't mean they're a problem for other professions you pessimist

[zabmaru]

I've said it once and I'll say it again.

>Balanced PvP

>MMORPG

Choose one.

[Rimmy]

Just a reminder to everyone:

If you have constructive suggestions on how to improve game balance, please visit the Game Balances sub-forum and share your thoughts.

Gravity Games (a.k.a. "the developer") is open to suggestions and already has given consideration to or addressed some of the balance issues raised by our community. While not all suggestions for game balance are practical or possible, it doesn't hurt to share your thoughts.

Let's all work together to further improve our beloved Dragon Saga!

Edited by Rimmy, 25 August 2011 - 01:34 PM.

[GrapefruitGod]

Really?

seems to me anything the server population at large says doesn't matter and that it will always be a small minority that has their voice heard.

stop being selfish

[Rimmy]

Really?

seems to me anything the server population at large says doesn't matter and that it will always be a small minority that has their voice heard.

It was the GMs themselves who asked that the players start a Game Balances section so we could get a greater variety of opinions on the balancing issues.

[Coolsam]

How bout block rate? Nothing done bout that.

[EnderW]

It was the GMs themselves who asked that the players start a Game Balances section so we could get a greater variety of opinions on the balancing issues.

Yeah

http://forums.warppo...522#entry516522

but I see a number of people there saying that the guardian sets are not that unbalanced compared to the special grade IM sets and they have all been ignored since we're getting the stats taken off.

So at the end of the day I don't get the feeling anything we say has a real effect on things (either way) it was the same on THQ the devs have always screwed with the NA release.

[Rimmy]

Yeah

http://forums.warppo...522#entry516522

but I see a number of people there saying that the guardian sets are not that unbalanced compared to the special grade IM sets and they have all been ignored since we're getting the stats taken off.

So at the end of the day I don't get the feeling anything we say has a real effect on things (either way) it was the same on THQ the devs have always screwed with the NA release.

At this point, I think the simple fact is that Gravity Games (the developer, not the publisher) said the stats needed to come off because they weren't supposed to have them in the first place. And TBH, I agree that our opinions probably aren't going to bring back those stats -- *because* they are considered bugged, not because Warp Portal doesn't care about us or want to listen to us.

Rather than continue to argue the merit of removing the stats, I think at this point it would be better to turn our collective attention to the matter of compensation, as that is something Warp Portal does control and our opinions could end up making a difference there.

[Maronu]

At this point, I think the simple fact is that Gravity Games (the developer, not the publisher) said the stats needed to come off because they weren't supposed to have them in the first place. And TBH, I agree that our opinions probably aren't going to bring back those stats -- *because* they are considered bugged, not because Warp Portal doesn't care about us or want to listen to us.

Rather than continue to argue the merit of removing the stats, I think at this point it would be better to turn our collective attention to the matter of compensation, as that is something Warp Portal does control and our opinions could end up making a difference there.

I think you are mixing your threads up. Anyway, Rim, I'll need to see some end game equip analysis with max values to see what the aim buff actually does before I can judge this. We are losing 20 pure evade and 18% evade from switching from mixed guardian to special set (I wouldn't use guardian as example in your calculations), and that combined with the increase % to aim does seem a significant change when you consider that base aim starts 100 higher than evade so you gain a larger boost from aim % than evade %. That .02 difference from agi doesn't seem like a huge deal unless we are talking about agi that is well above 1k, but I could be wrong. We are also losing agi from the guardian nerf, and new origin may make up for it, but I doubt we will be seeing that substantial increase to agi that will completely mess up our formula anytime soon.

It would still likely be best to change the formula to make the gains from the stat the same early just in case.

Edited by Maronu, 25 August 2011 - 02:51 PM.

[Nhat]

At this point, I think the simple fact is that Gravity Games (the developer, not the publisher) said the stats needed to come off because they weren't supposed to have them in the first place. And TBH, I agree that our opinions probably aren't going to bring back those stats -- *because* they are considered bugged, not because Warp Portal doesn't care about us or want to listen to us.

Rather than continue to argue the merit of removing the stats, I think at this point it would be better to turn our collective attention to the matter of compensation, as that is something Warp Portal does control and our opinions could end up making a difference there.

To be honest I'm actually more irritated that we recieved no type of warning about this at all and how they think that 1 w-coin and 2 soul stack is enough to compensate for the time and gold we spent on guardian set rather than the actual nerfing of the set. So if they were to come up with a better compensation, a lot more people would be less hostile torward this nerf.