18 replies to this topic

[Vandong]

how much dex do you need for a hybrid DD/crit sin.

at the time i got morri set + +10 trip crit jur & ice pick.. dunno what dagger for the other hand u_u..

i played around with stat cals.. and so far i was plannin on 99 str 80 agi & 53 dex..

lookin for tips ... and what weapon is best for DD all around..since dont have much money

[GuardianTK]

2/2 Race/Size Main Gauches works wonders for maximizing damage with DD. Basically put your Ice Pick on your right hand while having the Race/Siz MG on the Left Hand. I'd recommend getting at least 90 base Agi, lower your Str, and get at least 70 base Dex. According to your stat build, you're probably calculating things based on Pre-Renewal settings. In Renewal, everything requires a lot more Hit nowadays for efficiency. 53 base Dex is simply not enough when you get into the 80+ range. Str also does not help you as much as it used to (No longer damage bonuses every 10 points...Just +%atk to your weapon per pt of Str).

[EvilLoynis]

2/2 Race/Size Main Gauches works wonders for maximizing damage with DD. Basically put your Ice Pick on your right hand while having the Race/Siz MG on the Left Hand. I'd recommend getting at least 90 base Agi, lower your Str, and get at least 70 base Dex. According to your stat build, you're probably calculating things based on Pre-Renewal settings. In Renewal, everything requires a lot more Hit nowadays for efficiency. 53 base Dex is simply not enough when you get into the 80+ range. Str also does not help you as much as it used to (No longer damage bonuses every 10 points...Just +%atk to your weapon per pt of Str).

Don't you mean 2/2 Race/Element Cards? Both Race and Element cards increase damage by 20% each so have it like I mentioned gives you a totaly of +96% damage. Size cards only give + 15%, the +5 Atk bonus only applies to offhand I believe, in your case whereas % bonus applies to main hand as well.



Mind you my DD Sin used +7 Glad [3]'s carded with Small & Med cards and MG's 2/2 Race/Element, or in the case of Earth Guys just 4x Race. (Kaho cards are a pain in the arse to get and WAY to expensive at 11m+ each.)

Also I have a +7 Tripple Beholder Scalpel and +10 Quad Beholder MG for both Siroma and Magmarring (also works on Metalins hehe) and then just use Elemental Endows to max damage. With 90 Str/Agi and 60-70 Base Dex I was dishing out 2.5k damage per hit with double attack.

Edited by EvilLoynis, 25 September 2011 - 08:15 PM.

[GuardianTK]

Size cards worked fine for me though, but Element cards do work better for maximizing damage as you suggested. I just wanted a general weapon without having to buy/make so many specialized daggers, hence why I suggested Size cards.

[EvilLoynis]

Size cards worked fine for me though, but Element cards do work better for maximizing damage as you suggested. I just wanted a general weapon without having to buy/make so many specialized daggers, hence why I suggested Size cards.

That's totally cool and I completely understand not wanting to have so many daggers geared only to a few guys. This is why I did the Glad 3x Beholder and MG 4x Beholder. There are so many formless guys these work on that they are always useful although ofc they key monsters for leveling would be Siroma/Magmarring from level 83-100+.

I Find that a Main hand Size Carded with offhand Race or element carded works ok and you would only really need 2 Main daggers, Small and Med. If hunting L monsters switch to Katar imho.

Edited by EvilLoynis, 25 September 2011 - 08:34 PM.

[GuardianTK]

That's totally cool and I completely understand not wanting to have so many daggers geared only to a few guys. This is why I did the Glad 3x Beholder and MG 4x Beholder. There are so many formless guys these work on that they are always useful although ofc they key monsters for leveling would be Siroma/Magmarring from level 83-100+.

I Find that a Main hand Size Carded with offhand Race or element carded works ok and you would only really need 2 Main daggers, Small and Med. If hunting L monsters switch to Katar imho.

Well...I was putting the new weekly TI's into consideration. Magmarings and Siromas aren't exactly the main monsters you should level on nowadays when you have those turn ins. Especially the new Eden Group quest boards for 90+(?).

[azmandual]

for ctrl+clicking:
right hand = +4 grimtooth (it only cost you 800k and has better damage than scalpel with three zipper bears)
left hand = +4 ice pick

for grimtooth+sonic blow:
katar = +4 unholy touch

go to magmarings use ur enchant poison, farm forever there (or til u become gx). thats all u need ^^. dnt think too much about equipment at low level /heh.

if u are doing turnins. check the monsters element if they are neutral or level 1~2 water/earth/wind/fire just use ur +4 grimtooth & unholy touch with enchant poison. if they are not, buy vvs elemental damascus or elemental katars to counter their element.

dont even bother about ur left hand. just use ice pick all the time. it's good for any monsters.

this way u dnt need to think too much about equipment at low level til u become gx ^^.

Edited by azmandual, 26 September 2011 - 09:44 AM.

[EvilLoynis]

for ctrl+clicking:
right hand = +4 grimtooth (it only cost you 800k and has better damage than scalpel with three zipper bears)
left hand = +4 ice pick

for grimtooth+sonic blow:
katar = +4 unholy touch

go to magmarings use ur enchant poison, farm forever there (or til u become gx). thats all u need ^^. dnt think too much about equipment at low level /heh.

if u are doing turnins. check the monsters element if they are neutral or level 1~2 water/earth/wind/fire just use ur +4 grimtooth & unholy touch with enchant poison. if they are not, buy vvs elemental damascus or elemental katars to counter their element.

dont even bother about ur left hand. just use ice pick all the time. it's good for any monsters.

this way u dnt need to think too much about equipment at low level til u become gx ^^.

Not sure what server your on but on Valk server the dagger Grimtooth goes for 3.5m easy, Ice Pick non slotted goes for 35-40m, slotted goes for 80m.

Also Grimtooth dagger does not do more damage then a tipple zip carded Scalp [3]

Scalp [3] = 120 Atk + 3 * 30 atk (Zipper bear Cards) = 210 Attack

Grimtooth = 180 Attack and has no slots.

It would deal equal damage if the scalp was tripple Andre Carded since that only gives 20 Atk * 3.

[weaseI]

It depends.
each str give 0.5% dmg based on weapon.
size penalty reduced grimtooh more than scalpel.
most leveling spot is medium size monster but the -3sp per hit kinda suck.
grimtooth might do less but 10 flee and 5 pdodge is always good to have.

[EvilLoynis]

It depends.
each str give 0.5% dmg based on weapon.
size penalty reduced grimtooh more than scalpel.
most leveling spot is medium size monster but the -3sp per hit kinda suck.
grimtooth might do less but 10 flee and 5 pdodge is always good to have.

The thing is for a Double Dagger sin they really don't need SP at all. I mean the only thing they would use might be steal. Either way you could always put in Andre cards remember for equal atk of grim.

Also I see you don't mention the -50% def of Grimtooth at all but you do mention the bonuses...hmm. Also the +10 flee is really not even needed for someone who does their stats right, which means not touching Str until Dex and Agi are at 60/90.

[weaseI]

enchant weapon, cloaking, backslide, soul destroyer, what?
-50% def doesn't mean you receive 50% more damage. Without shield, you dont have high def to start anyway.
due to flee mechanic, lack 10 flee from target is like lack 10% to flee, it's nothing like "only 10 flee". and nothing wrong if having more flee because it'll help when fighting +2 monster at a time.
+5 pdodge seems minor but pair with +5 wild rose and +10 2x yoyo, those 20 pdodge is pretty cheap and effective.

[EvilLoynis]

enchant weapon, cloaking, backslide, soul destroyer, what?

worthless, worthless, worthless and semi useful.

if you are doing a dual dagger build and ctrl clicking then these are quite useless except for SD.

Why the heck would you want to Cloak? lot easier just to wing if your in trouble.

Enchant weapon sucks compared to getting a Endow from a sage which just kicks but.

BSlide is quite useless when non mob leveling really.

I have never used these skills, other than SD, to level and could easily have gotten by without it. Dealing massive damage is much better than all of them.

[weaseI]

I don't know why you been so defensive when a lot of people said zipper suck because of the sp. Start learning to use them now, it is useful and not gonna reduced your exp rate. That's why a lot of GX failed on using those skill for solo or party. You need to get used to them for higher level map.

[EvilLoynis]

I don't know why you been so defensive when a lot of people said zipper suck because of the sp. Start learning to use them now, it is useful and not gonna reduced your exp rate. That's why a lot of GX failed on using those skill for solo or party. You need to get used to them for higher level map.

Sorry if I seem defensive don't really feel that way.

It is just that I have never seen much point in those skills for leveling.

Now if you were referring to the Enchant DEADLY POISON, that is different. I love that one but it has a way to high zenny cost to use and lasts for way to short a time. Although it increases your damage by an INSANE amount. And it does NOT change your element to poison unlike Enchant Poison.

I also found it SO much easier just to make an alternate Sage to help with Endowing for leveling purposes, which I find a lot better than having to buy so many different uncardable elemental daggers. 125% damage is ok but I rather the 150-200% from endows.

Soul Destroyer ROCKS, even with low Int. The main problem is it has a long reuse delay (3 seconds) and high sp cost. When I used it during leveling it was if say 3 monsters came at me at one time, I would just SD one of them and deal with the other 2 like normal. Unless you make a pure Soul Destroyer build, with lots of Int, then you really only get like 20 uses then have to rest.


Cloaking is only useable really when mobbing guys up for skill GTing them, Or in a few cases for getting around/through tougher areas, but is not really used for fighting since Sin's don't get any skill useable from Cloaking, U have to switch to Hide even for GT to work.

Backslide again useable for mobbing or escaping. Or for just looking cool of course


I agree Zippers have a high downside with the sp loss, which is why I also said it would be ok to switch to Andre Cards since these give you 20 Atk per and have no down side and are lots cheaper.

Edited by EvilLoynis, 26 September 2011 - 09:41 PM.

[Vandong]

So far thank you all for the reponse

so yeah after tweakin my stat using ROratorio calx RE version.. my stats were 70 dex 80 agi & 87 str .. 0 stat points left

hmm not really sure.. can you guys please give me some suggestion?

still not sure what daggers to put on other hand.. t_T how about assassin dagger? or gladius with minorous, skel worker, desert wolf card= Gigantic Boned titan hehe..

[EvilLoynis]

So far thank you all for the reponse

so yeah after tweakin my stat using ROratorio calx RE version.. my stats were 70 dex 80 agi & 87 str .. 0 stat points left

hmm not really sure.. can you guys please give me some suggestion?

still not sure what daggers to put on other hand.. t_T how about assassin dagger? or gladius with minorous, skel worker, desert wolf card= Gigantic Boned titan hehe..

They mentioned this above but it bears repeating.

YOUR AGILITY SHOULD BE THE HIGHEST.
There is no reason whatsoever that your Str should be higher than your Agi at any time.

[GuardianTK]

I concur about the Agi. You'll gain more benefits in the long run by increasing your Aspd slightly as well as Flee with every Agi as opposed to a 0.5% increase to your weapon's atk per Str. The difference is hardly noticeable when it comes to adding Str as opposed to Agi when it comes down to the Sin/SinX/GX branch. Str normally benefits classes using weapons with moderate to high atk.


Backslide is indispensable as a GX when it comes down to EDP+RollingCutter leveling though. And Cloak is normally a bad idea if you're already getting hit by a mob. Especially if the mob is either Demon or Insect race, which renders Cloak as a useless option for getting away from danger. I still run into GX's who think they can Cloak from Demons. xD

[Vandong]

uhm how about this 63 str 99 agi and 72 dex

[EvilLoynis]

uhm how about this 63 str 99 agi and 72 dex

Thats a lot better.

If you ever think you may get access to Rogues Treasures then getting 90 Str is needed but those cost and arm and a leg.

http://db.irowiki.or...item-info/2620/

I really hate items that drop at crappy card rates.

Edited by EvilLoynis, 29 September 2011 - 11:15 AM.