81 replies to this topic

[Rafa07]

Good god, where to start? Good luck CCing in scaraba2 without instant cast

One, none uses DF by itself. Two, one of the levels of FE gives something like 50%+ ranged reducs.

And for Three: Howling is crap with the new resists, hell plant damage isn't great and can't be stacked anymore after the balance patch, vines is only good for the ganb effect and has a crap cast time without megs sleips and hammer - and even then it's hit or miss everywhere in the AoE. Oh yeah, ONLY the DF damage is based on MATK... when it gets turned to AB it is caclced like a normal AB... but does more damage. Especially since DF + FE ignores the -50% against players ( tested in PvP, full demi reducs on a 150 AB AB does 18-20K / DF+FE on the same AB same gears does 38-40K), as well as stoneskin - but it can be magic mirrored by at least MVPs.

1 and 2- one of the levels give +50% damage with DF(on the SS before 857+400 per hit and that is very low) there is no lvl that gives you 50%+ranged but one level give +50% the other gives less ranged damage. http://irowiki.org/wiki/Fire_Expansion
3- howling might be crap but still useful and cheap to use when you cast DF you waste more money and the damage is 1~2 White pots with, vines that gives you better than ganb effect arent more useful than 1200 damage per sec?+ gives you around 3~6k and bypass pneuma? and yes is a bit expensive but it worth and thorn wall is awesome to cast on when you alot of ppl are together(breaking emp/Recall/barricades) ok it is not an PvM skill but still better than waste 13 point for DF+FE since you need at least lv3 for CRazy Vines, the cast is bad? a bit but with strings+bless is fast enough to clear one ME that other guilds spam on pre-cast/Emperium.
4(Bold part)- Are you sure? i just tested right now and gives even less damage (65 per hit on dummy with ADlv10 and 42 per hit on dummy with DF+FElv5)
5- Hell plant is awesome, good damage (15k), bypass thara and ray and stun targets forever(if they have less than 90 vit, usefull on PvM)
6- + Blood Sucker, doesn't give alot of damage but its an awesome DoT to stop casters and is a require for Hell Plant and Mandragora skills and cheap.
7- i soloed alot on scaraba TI using only CC and had no dif and didnt spend toons of money in other hand(if you kill 8 mobs with DF+FE per use you will spend ~3M/100 casts with a total of 800mobs, assuming that its one-hit-ko) isnt that bad but expensive and its really worth spend this skill points only to have a weaker AD 5x5 cast area? when you will loose Crazy Vines+Thorn Wall or hellplant+Blood Sucker+Mandragora Howl?

Edited by Rafa07, 24 February 2012 - 03:52 PM.

[meoryou2]

that dummy thing has crap for VIT.

Scaraba2 rake horn takes 150K damage from DF / FE and in PvP the FE-5 bypasses the -50% against players. Even against well geared players you are looking at 8-15K with DF / FE plus cast times are 100% reducable meaning you can sit in strings and bomb the crap out of people just like pre-re.

The rest of your arguments are invalid. I have full DF / FE + thorn wall + bloodsucker + crazy vines for chewing pnuema / sw / ETC as well as the useless in PvP sword training + all cart cart skills and even spore explosion ( hilarious when you spore someone and they run back to their guildmates, or spore the precast )

[Rafa07]

that dummy thing has crap for VIT.

Scaraba2 rake horn takes 150K damage from DF / FE and in PvP the FE-5 bypasses the -50% against players. Even against well geared players you are looking at 8-15K with DF / FE plus cast times are 100% reducable meaning you can sit in strings and bomb the crap out of people just like pre-re.

I just tested on rachel sac AD lv10 do 50k with DF+FElv5 36k, if works dif against player come to sakray and lets test and if i am wrong i come here and proves that i was wrong, but still i have my opinion a prefer having hell plant(lv5)+mandragora(lv5)+crazy vines(lv10)+blood sucker(lv3~5) instead of 5x5 area weaker AD

[meoryou2]

You fail. get off the test server that is KNOWN to be configured wrong on multi ways.

Fail one: not listening to your elders. Fail two: bomb the same type of monster not AB one and then FE the one with a big chunk less VIT. Fail 3: go to PvP yourself it's not hard.

[Rafa07]

You fail. get off the test server that is KNOWN to be configured wrong on multi ways.

Fail one: not listening to your elders. Fail two: bomb the same type of monster not AB one and then FE the one with a big chunk less VIT. Fail 3: go to PvP yourself it's not hard.

fail one: no one interesting here,and no way you are elder than me, plus not "elders" because you are the only one saying this, fail two: i bombed and DF+FE only Echios ignored all others, fail three: there is nobody on in Sakray Test server and let me add one more: dont be a morron and assuming stuff that you dont know any facts like you usually do but if you want i will SS again and show you and you will continue assuming stuff without any test.

time for SS:


what is it now? the Sakray Test Server is bugged? can you please show some SS from iRO so we can compare?

PS: now iam done, again please think twice before saying anything that you dont know, it already the 4 time you try do advice someone and end up give wrong advices and misleading people.

@Others players, its ok to come to forum read and ask question and info but if you not sure please test yourself and make your own build that works for you, dont make this or that just someone say so. dont be afraid to try and test until you find the perfect balance because everyone have different opinions you should form your own instead of adopting other ppl opinion

Edited by Rafa07, 24 February 2012 - 07:07 PM.

[meoryou2]

Herpa Derp:



and now for the SAME DAMAGE FE.....




now please be kind enough to go drool on your latest keyboard and short that one out as well.

[Rafa07]

ok, on Sakray the damage is bugged then, also isnt supose to give more damage? or only works on pvp?
i just notice something, can you show using FE lv5 the first hit and not the last? i even give you bombs if you want to waste yours.
Because here iam using AB and i used FE right after and it looks like the damage is from FE when its from AB


just like in your SS

Edited by Rafa07, 24 February 2012 - 07:49 PM.

[meoryou2]

ok, on Sakray the damage is bugged then, also isnt supose to give more damage? or only works on pvp?
i just notice something, can you show using FE lv5 the first hit and not the last? i even give you bombs if you want to waste yours

Unless it has changed in the last few months it seems to ignore the -50% to players in PvP. It also from what I saw on Queen Scaraba bypasses her stone skin. Also the cast is 100% variable from what I can tell ( was ungodly fast in strings - near enough to instant or actually instant with full cast reducs on ).

With acid bomb all hits are calculated out the same as the first hit. In Rachel from my SS you can see the DF / FE are 4484 so 4484 x 10 = 44840


Both Acid Bomb and DF / FE have variance because of the ATK portion of the calculation. I bombed a few times and used FE a few times in Rachel tonight they varied from 43K - 49K on both types of casting with an average of ~45K

[Rafa07]

Unless it has changed in the last few months it seems to ignore the -50% to players in PvP. It also from what I saw on Queen Scaraba bypasses her stone skin. Also the cast is 100% variable from what I can tell ( was ungodly fast in strings - near enough to instant or actually instant with full cast reducs on ).

With acid bomb all hits are calculated out the same as the first hit. In Rachel from my SS you can see the DF / FE are 4484 so 4484 x 10 = 44840


Both Acid Bomb and DF / FE have variance because of the ATK portion of the calculation. I bombed a few times and used FE a few times in Rachel tonight they varied from 43K - 49K on both types of casting with an average of ~45K

but cant you just take the SS on the first hit using DF+FE? i will pay all the bottles

[Chigikogou]

Now I am confused..

According to iRO forums people.. 3x AS Red Naught Seiger is much better than 3x AS Elemental Sword in terms of Acid Bomb ..

Which speaks the truth!? because I already have the x3 AS Red Naught Seiger

[Rafa07]

The Sakray isnt bugged, the thing is that DF+FElv5 dont work with Archer Skeleton card that is why you test show no change while mine reduce -13k damage, just one more reason not to use DF+FE.

[Kadelia]

Demon fire converted to acid bomb is considered a magic attack and doesn't utilize archer skeletons, no?

Against mobs, a convertered/endowed twin edge is best, notoriously when highly upgraded due to being lvl 4 vs 3.

Also in PVP all my tests against a neutrally armored person showed better damage with the twin edge. I can't imagine a situation where you'd want to use the elemental sword over the twin edge-- since you'll want to single target acid bomb as much as the AoE one, and you're single targetting someone, you want the best damage, while the AoE is useful even if a little weaker. I'd say switching weapons would be possible but it's never something I'd bother with. you'd probably want a mjollnir to cast fire expansion and whatnot anyway-- which invalidates the argument with elemental sword.

[meoryou2]

Demon fire converted to acid bomb is considered a magic attack and doesn't utilize archer skeletons, no?

Against mobs, a convertered/endowed twin edge is best, notoriously when highly upgraded due to being lvl 4 vs 3.

Also in PVP all my tests against a neutrally armored person showed better damage with the twin edge. I can't imagine a situation where you'd want to use the elemental sword over the twin edge-- since you'll want to single target acid bomb as much as the AoE one, and you're single targetting someone, you want the best damage, while the AoE is useful even if a little weaker. I'd say switching weapons would be possible but it's never something I'd bother with. you'd probably want a mjollnir to cast fire expansion and whatnot anyway-- which invalidates the argument with elemental sword.

No need for mjolnir if you have strings, you can get either almost instant cast or so close it might as well be. Hammer is only needed if you don't have a stringer, and even then it isn't really necessary. Also with DF, as soon as you cast FE you hit the CC key and you get a bonus CC after the bomb goes off...

And yes the AoE AB is magic, but it ignores the -50% damage against players and DEF reducs ( no one has good MDEF reducs).... imagine it with hibram shoes....

[Kadelia]

I just tested on rachel sac AD lv10 do 50k with DF+FElv5 36k, if works dif against player come to sakray and lets test and if i am wrong i come here and proves that i was wrong, but still i have my opinion a prefer having hell plant(lv5)+mandragora(lv5)+crazy vines(lv10)+blood sucker(lv3~5) instead of 5x5 area weaker AD

The reason is because regular acid bomb is physical and the fire expansion one is magical. Agav for example takes -14.5% from physical and -40.5% from magical. This is why the fire expansion one is weaker in pvm but stronger in woe/pvp; because players have crap for mdef and monsters have high mdef.

I do not believe hibrim shoes work on it. Both skills no longer deal -50% versus players. Pre-balance the fire expansion one always did full damage.

Crazy vines over level 3 or so is not very useful.

Also I do not believe you can get suitable ranks in cart cannon/hell's plant, thorntrap/wall 3+, and still get the AoE acid bomb skill. I think you fall short by about 2 points. You'd have to handicap hell's plant.

With Mjollnir the fire expansion might be worthwhile, that is about all. +30 dex food/int food makes cast times pretty fast in woe without strings, but come on.. that's ridiculously expensive/time consuming to have supplies to spam in woe with for 90%+ people.

Edited by Jaye, 12 March 2012 - 11:24 AM.

[meoryou2]

The reason is because regular acid bomb is physical and the fire expansion one is magical. Agav for example takes -14.5% from physical and -40.5% from magical. This is why the fire expansion one is weaker in pvm but stronger in woe/pvp; because players have crap for mdef and monsters have high mdef.

I do not believe hibrim shoes work on it. Both skills no longer deal -50% versus players. Pre-balance the fire expansion one always did full damage.

Crazy vines over level 3 or so is not very useful.

Also I do not believe you can get suitable ranks in cart cannon/hell's plant, thorntrap/wall 3+, and still get the AoE acid bomb skill. I think you fall short by about 2 points. You'd have to handicap hell's plant.

With Mjollnir the fire expansion might be worthwhile, that is about all. +30 dex food/int food makes cast times pretty fast in woe without strings, but come on.. that's ridiculously expensive/time consuming to have supplies to spam in woe with for 90%+ people.

demonic fire 3 ( pre-req level only, you cast level1 for fastest cast and re-use delay - currently 1 sec / level of FE) and no sword training ( haven't tested if it affects AB damage by a whole lot, can affect CC by 1-2K when you start hitting 10K+ ) and you can get FE5, boost5, CC5, TW5, HP5, sucker3 ( and the HP drain is a joke and only 4 seconds more at level5) and CV 3 + spore explosion crap for pre-reqs.

[Kadelia]

special pharmacy 4
thorn trap 3
thorn wall 3
blood sucker 3
crazy vines 1
hell plant 5
howl of mandragora 5
spore expansion 3
demonic fire 3
fire expansion 5
cart remodeling 5
cart cannon 5
cart boost 5

50 pts, over by 1... you'll have to take a point out of sometime extremely useful like cart boost, or etc.

I'd honestly rather max thorn wall than get fire expansion 5, thorn wall does some amazing damage and you can acid bomb them at the same time they are being hit with thorn wall-- much better than the fire expansion acid bomb effect.

Edited by Jaye, 13 March 2012 - 04:47 AM.

[Rafa07]

I'd honestly rather max thorn wall than get fire expansion 5, thorn wall does some amazing damage and you can acid bomb them at the same time they are being hit with thorn wall-- much better than the fire expansion acid bomb effect.

Expecialy in Woe when someone recalls, is awesome see them hitlocked by thorn wall while i CV all of them xD

[meoryou2]

special pharmacy 4
thorn trap 3
thorn wall 3
blood sucker 3
crazy vines 1
hell plant 5
howl of mandragora 5
spore expansion 3
demonic fire 3
fire expansion 5
cart remodeling 5
cart cannon 5
cart boost 5

50 pts, over by 1... you'll have to take a point out of sometime extremely useful like cart boost, or etc.

I'd honestly rather max thorn wall than get fire expansion 5, thorn wall does some amazing damage and you can acid bomb them at the same time they are being hit with thorn wall-- much better than the fire expansion acid bomb effect.

Thats because you have useless howling in there. With resists as they are now anyone who you should have to worry about is most likely not going to be affected by it..... and if you don't have to worry about them just do some carnage and not waste supplies that can only be gotten from 2 monsters in game.


Thorn wall from what I hear only does damage at something like upper 170s ASPD now ( 2-3 hits / second ) rather than the original like 190-193 ASPD....

[Kadelia]

Howling is not useless. Why are you giving genetic advice? lol

Thorn wall was hitting (maybe) 10-50 hits/sec (hard to say) like taekwon heat did and got lowered to 193 aspd on kRO (7/sec) but we don't have that update yet.

Edited by Jaye, 14 March 2012 - 10:40 AM.

[Rafa07]

And yes the AoE AB is magic, but it ignores the -50% damage against players and DEF reducs ( no one has good MDEF reducs).... imagine it with hibram shoes....

well if DF+FElv5 make AB magic that probably best use elemental sword over twin edge, since it gives +95 MATK

@edit: just tested for +8ES and +8Twin and the damage are very similar, on earth monsters twin do +25% more damage but do around the same damage on neutral and -50% on fire monster and -25% on water monsters

funny ps: test this on hodes in sakray test server got hode card after i close valkyrie when finish killing my BB's MVPS and no card xD

Edited by Rafa07, 14 March 2012 - 05:50 PM.

[meoryou2]

Howling is not useless. Why are you giving genetic advice? lol

Thorn wall was hitting (maybe) 10-50 hits/sec (hard to say) like taekwon heat did and got lowered to 193 aspd on kRO (7/sec) but we don't have that update yet.

Maybe because I know how to play my class? Because I can kill groups of people without god items?

If hownling isn't useless... it must be a difference between Ymir and you Yggies then, because on Ymir it is barely used at all. I don't WoE much anymore ( other than a suicide run now and again to take out some noob guild or something) and I NEVER see any genetics use it anymore. As for thornwall I was going from what I heard on irowiki , hence the "from what I hear". Haven't been hit with it in a long time.

[Rafa07]

As for thornwall I was going from what I heard on irowiki , hence the "from what I hear". Haven't been hit with it in a long time.

thats the problem, always test before saying-_-, always test before make a build, always test before taking one opinion, reading guides is usefull but isnt a way to learn how to play with a char you much test everything before defending one opinion.
as for mandragora, i play on Valk and all genetics use it alot, i really hate when i got hit by mandragora but i love to use mandragora howling on top of a guild recall, its one of the most usefull skill in woe.

[Kadelia]

Maybe because I know how to play my class?

Clearly not if you think mandragora howling is useless and you don't know what thorn wall currently does. Plus you had some pretty suspect math issues on iwiki the other day. If you know genetic please rectify my opinion of you by saying things that are actually correct going forward...

[meoryou2]

Clearly not if you think mandragora howling is useless and you don't know what thorn wall currently does. Plus you had some pretty suspect math issues on iwiki the other day. If you know genetic please rectify my opinion of you by saying things that are actually correct going forward...

Why? because I was in a hurry the other day? And on Ymir howling is very rarely used because everyone adjusted their builds to resist it most of the time?


Heres a clue for ya pal.... my genetic was 150 / 50 before yours, I didn't sue god items ( other than 20% of level 123 when I borrowed a friends slieps), and didn't use TI's to level.
Nowadays WoE is stupid boring and a waste of time. The only thing going to be remotely interesting in WoE is going to be homunculus S, some of them have some pretty nasty uses if you know how to play them. Oh yeah, and who has been ALWAYS saying twin edges are the best genetic weapon because you can wear a shield... I wonder.

[Kadelia]

I don't think you should give gene advice anymore lol