56 replies to this topic

[Yurai]

I don't really think the current format of the tournament is really representative of player skill. Let's break this down to each individual stage.

The first elimination round is a Free for All match where players compete to get kills against their opponents. However, FFA mode is one of the most laughed upon modes in terms of competitive play. The key to winning this is to choose a class that has interruptions and huge burst in a skill or two. The problem lies in that the person who gets the last hit on the opponent gets the credit for the kill. Overall, not representative of a single player's skill.

The second batch of rounds is a 5 minute Death match. This game mode is significantly better than FFA, but it still does a poor job of representing the player's skill. Why? The main reason is that players do not get reset upon deaths. It does not allow either player to fully fight each round. While this may make more sense in real life (as you would not get a reset to full "vitality"), it does not make as much sense in a game. A skilled player will be able to defeat their opponent from full HP and MP. If they cannot, it just shows that they are not as skilled as their opponent. There's no reason to give them an HP and MP handicap just because they died first.

A much better solution for hosting the matches would be a three round Elimination match (the game mode) instead of Death matches. The semi-finals could have a five round Elimination, and the finals can be further increased to nine rounds. I understand that the reason for the FFA may be due to time constraints, but it undermines the purpose of the tournament if players are not demonstrating their skill.

An alternative solution if time is an issue here would be to host a team based tournament. Each team could have 4 members, up to a total of sixteen teams for the same 64 participants. They would fight in the same manner described in the previous paragraph. The team format would also eliminate a lot of the skill imbalances, so the need to restrict skills would no longer be necessary. The victors here would be able to demonstrate not only their individual skill, but also their teamwork. The prize distribution here would still be similar. The first place team could get the full prizes while the second place gets half. The third and fourth place teams would each get an even share of IM points, which would still be the same amount of winners and a similar amount of prizes. If necessary, the prizes could be toned down a bit since there would technically be four first place winners instead of just one.

In addition, we should have WarpPortal staff put together a slew of tournament accounts for each class, with a large amount of skill resets. Give the accounts a predetermined level and a good amount of skill points (IAH tournaments had 2000 SP for each class). This eliminates level from being a factor in the tournament, as well as different amounts of bonus stats allocated past level 60. In addition, it would remove the imbalance presented by skills higher than level 5, which some people do not have access to.

Input on these suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.

Edited by Yurai, 29 October 2011 - 06:55 PM.

[StormHaven]

There need to be more detailed skill restrictions also, such as No Anti Air Shot spamming for more than 3seconds or 1/4 of the opponents HP, no infinite combo-ing,etc.

[Kazra]

I agree.

Deathmatch has alot of problems already which is why no one plays that mode. Now with the current rules stated the mode can be even further abused. There are classes that need to expend their full MP bar to kill another while there are also classes that rely on 1 or 2 combos. Since HP/MP isn't reset on kill, then it'll easily become player A kills player B, player B kills player A, and so on. If 2 players are evenly matched, they'll just keep dying and have the same amount of kills/deaths. HP% is a poor deciding factor because of combos. Some classes slowly chip down health, while others take down huge chunks in each combo. That brings me to another issue; running. I think you guys need better judgement on what counts as running. Ninjas can pretty much run away the entire time while using Swift Attack whenever it comes off cooldown and Rocket Punch occasionally to win by having higher HP%. With many of the instant catch skills banned, it's a rather impossible matchup especially with the block rate and evade of a Ninja in naked PvP. DoT skills are similar in that sense where you can land one and run until the debuff is over. I think a tie in kills/deaths should warrant a rematch with Elimination mode. I realize Deathmatch saves time but that mode is a joke for tournaments.

http://www.twitch.tv...tra/b/298687455
Don't really care anymore but just going to use my match as an example. Clearly just ran away the entire time while throwing out random Rocket Punches and Swift Attacks. Once I got hit by the DoT, just ran away the entire time. Apparently this isn't avoiding the fight according to Aramis.

Edited by Kazra, 29 October 2011 - 02:26 PM.

[Nolanvoid]

Please provide as much discussion to this as possible. We will be removing any responses that are off-topic or are flaming. We are welcoming all suggestions so that the next tournament will be enjoyable.

[Rimmy]

Yeah, I agree with Yurai that team matches would be more fun. 1v1 is way too one-sided based on class/level (some classes enjoy being OP at certain level ranges vs. other classes at the same level, for example).

[mimodi]

i dont like the hp rule the first to die should lose or more death=lost. people have the same amount of kill n death then respawm would auto get more hp.

[Yurai]

I agree.

Deathmatch has alot of problems already which is why no one plays that mode. Now with the current rules stated the mode can be even further abused. There are classes that need to expend their full MP bar to kill another while there are also classes that rely on 1 or 2 combos. Since HP/MP isn't reset on kill, then it'll easily become player A kills player B, player B kills player A, and so on. If 2 players are evenly matched, they'll just keep dying and have the same amount of kills/deaths. HP% is a poor deciding factor because of combos. Some classes slowly chip down health, while others take down huge chunks in each combo. That brings me to another issue; running. I think you guys need better judgement on what counts as running. Ninjas can pretty much run away the entire time while using Swift Attack whenever it comes off cooldown and Rocket Punch occasionally to win by having higher HP%. With many of the instant catch skills banned, it's a rather impossible matchup especially with the block rate and evade of a Ninja in naked PvP. DoT skills are similar in that sense where you can land one and run until the debuff is over. I think a tie in kills/deaths should warrant a rematch with Elimination mode. I realize Deathmatch saves time but that mode is a joke for tournaments.

http://www.twitch.tv...tra/b/298687455
Don't really care anymore but just going to use my match as an example. Clearly just ran away the entire time while throwing out random Rocket Punches and Swift Attacks. Once I got hit by the DoT, just ran away the entire time. Apparently this isn't avoiding the fight according to Aramis.

Based on the video, it does seem like a problem. I only realized it now, but the person was just running around and spamming swift probably hoping for the venom proc to deal the damage over time. Perhaps ban DoT skills for the next tournament as well if we're sticking to 1v1 fights. Disabling dash jumps may also make it so that running away is further discouraged.

Yeah, I agree with Yurai that team matches would be more fun. 1v1 is way too one-sided based on class/level (some classes enjoy being OP at certain level ranges vs. other classes at the same level, for example).

I can agree with 1v1 being one-sided as well. Sometimes, it's just the class matchups that cause a loss. Just look at this tournament -- it was filled primarily with ninjas and paladins in the top rankings.

Edited by Yurai, 29 October 2011 - 02:47 PM.

[GrapefruitGod]

Yurai, Kazra, and mimodi have got it. And you can clearly see the reason no one uses deathmatch in pvp.

[mimodi]

edit- team tournament would be fun


Rule should be if no death its base on hp.
If there is death is should be base on first kill(sudden death) if score r tie.

Edited by mimodi, 29 October 2011 - 03:28 PM.

[samxslam]

The tournament rules is fine as it is already. We all play it for fun. Competitive people take it real serious about it. If there is team in the future, then people will try and ask to assemble their own team and stuff.

[zabmaru]

The tournament rules is fine as it is already. We all play it for fun. Competitive people take it real serious about it. If there is team in the future, then people will try and ask to assemble their own team and stuff.

I thought the point was to be a little serious about it and try to win. Also, I'm pretty sure it was an unspoken assumption that teams would be formed together. I think everyone can agree the rules are fairly flawed.

[samxslam]

I thought the point was to be a little serious about it and try to win. Also, I'm pretty sure it was an unspoken assumption that teams would be formed together. I think everyone can agree the rules are fairly flawed.

The tournaments are actually fun even if people lost it was all fun and games. The Rules sure balance everyone out in this tournament.Because before the tourny tehy give people the chance to suggest stuff for the tourny and they did what people wanted. Naked, lvl 25 weapon, handicap. Just gotta do your best and good strategy to make it to the top.

Edited by samxslam, 29 October 2011 - 04:29 PM.

[Yurai]

The tournaments are actually fun even if people lost it was all fun and games. The Rules sure balance everyone out in this tournament. Just gotta do your best and good strategy to make it to the top.

You lost me on the part where it currently requires "good strategy" to make it to the top. Also, the point of a team tournament is for people to create their own teams. Random assignment of teams would result in teams that contain more than one of the same class and does not create variety, resulting in imbalanced teams.

In addition, I really don't see any problems with creating your own team. Unless you don't have three friends to play with, or you really feel that you don't have what it takes to win the tournament (which in turn would mean that you are admitting that you are not as good as other players), I'm not quite sure where the issue comes from. I'm sure that everyone has three friends or three guild members, right?

Edited by Yurai, 29 October 2011 - 04:34 PM.

[samxslam]

You lost me on the part where it currently requires "good strategy" to make it to the top. Also, the point of a team tournament is for people to create their own teams. Random assignment of teams would result in teams that contain more than one of the same class and does not create variety, resulting in imbalanced teams.

In addition, I really don't see any problems with creating your own team. Unless you don't have three friends to play with, or you really feel that you don't have what it takes to win the tournament (which in turn would mean that you are admitting that you are not as good as other players), I'm not quite sure where the issue comes from. I'm sure that everyone has three friends or three guild members, right?

sure your online friends sure. Random team is fair for a tourny. You always take it serious in any event or games. You act like other people that are new in this game can get their own team. Random team is the best way to start off the tourny. You only want to do whats best for you and Umnot for others.Not all new people have skills liek the old player from this game. so mixing up strong and weak people randomly is fair enough.

Edited by samxslam, 29 October 2011 - 04:40 PM.

[Yurai]

Um sure your online friends sure. Random team is fair for a tourny. You always take it serious in any event or games. You act like other people that are new in this game can get their own team. Random team is the best way to start off the tourny. You only want to do whats best for you and not for others.

What kind of anti-social person has no friends by level 40? Are you going to drag your real life friends to start off in this game so you can participate together in the tournament? Why wouldn't you be asking your online friends? Isn't the point to take it seriously?

The tournament rules is fine as it is already. We all play it for fun. Competitive people take it real serious about it. If there is team in the future, then people will try and ask to assemble their own team and stuff.

You said it yourself that it's supposed to be taken seriously. If myself and others are not taking it seriously, then that just proves there's a flaw in a tournament that gives out hundreds of dollars in prizes. Is the tournament supposed to be just a joke?

If you're that worried about forming teams, then it just means that you're not confident in your skills and/or your teamwork with your friends. In that case, I'd suggest practicing.

Also, don't bother adding slander to your posts. I am putting this out there as a suggestion for future tournaments. I don't see how this is in my own best interest when people that I don't even know are agreeing with the ideas in my post. If you're going to attempt to contribute to a meaningful discussion, please refrain from putting your personal feelings into your posts.

Okay, since you edited your post:

sure your online friends sure. Random team is fair for a tourny. You always take it serious in any event or games. You act like other people that are new in this game can get their own team. Random team is the best way to start off the tourny. You only want to do whats best for you and Umnot for others.Not all new people have skills liek the old player from this game. so mixing up strong and weak people randomly is fair enough.

Isn't the point of this tournament to show who is the strongest? Why would it matter if all four players on a team are strong? That just further exemplifies the purpose of the tournament -- to show who are the strongest players in Dragon Saga. Having random teams can also result in team members purposely throwing a match just because there's someone in there that they don't like.

Basically, what you're saying in a roundabout way is that my ideas do contribute in demonstrating who is skilled at the game, but you feel it is unfair that the most skilled players get to win the tournament.

Edited by Yurai, 29 October 2011 - 04:50 PM.

[Kazu731]

sure your online friends sure. Random team is fair for a tourny. You always take it serious in any event or games. You act like other people that are new in this game can get their own team. Random team is the best way to start off the tourny. You only want to do whats best for you and Umnot for others.Not all new people have skills liek the old player from this game. so mixing up strong and weak people randomly is fair enough.

Isn't that the same thing as letting people who don't put the same effort in ride off of what the "stronger" players do? It's a voluntary event with prizes; if you can't bring something to the table yourself it's the same thing as trying to get free stuff off of someone with more skill. It's to encourage players to have fun in understanding the system for themselves rather than punishing those who do not know what they're doing. I certainly don't participate in PvP but I would never discount the effort it takes to understand the facets of it and bring your own playstyle to your team.

Edited by Kazu731, 29 October 2011 - 04:50 PM.

[StormHaven]

Random teams are only fair if you're lucky. Teams could just as easily be stacked with all weak players or all strong players.
and just to remind people.

Please provide as much discussion to this as possible. We will be removing any responses that are off-topic or are flaming. We are welcoming all suggestions so that the next tournament will be enjoyable.

Edited by StormHaven, 29 October 2011 - 05:04 PM.

[to0n]

I'd like to suggest a double elimination set up rather than single elimination. This would give players a second chance and allow them to fight different people.

By double elimination. there's a winners bracket and a losers bracket.
Everyone starts in the winners bracket, and when they lose they go down to the losers bracket.
If they lose in the losers bracket, they are eliminated. The champion from the winners bracket faces the losers bracket.
Winners bracket should have to win 1 and loser should have to win 2.

Also @Samxslam
Random teams is a bad idea.

Edited by to0n, 29 October 2011 - 05:22 PM.

[Rimmy]

The things I like most about team PvP are that it pretty much eliminates the need for most skill restrictions and it encourages players to consider a wide variety of factors when choosing a class.

It's obvious that some classes are better than others in 1v1s, so everyone goes with the same 2-3 classes that tend to dominate in that department. But when you host a team tournament and restrict teams to having a max of one member from each class (one paladin or one priest, for instance), all of a sudden it becomes less about choosing a class with the best catching skills or the skills with the highest damage and becomes more about choosing a class that complements the classes your teammates choose.

You can each choose a class that makes up for teammates' weaknesses, for instance. If one person chooses a mage who can't catch but has good support skills, another chooses a class that acts as a good front-line combatant who can tank some damage and keep opponents busy/distracted, giving the mage openings to contribute with devastating spells/debuffs. Heck, even the playstyle of some of the standard "OP" classes like paladins changes a little bit, b/c the weaker teammates will be relying on them for protection in case they get locked.

Basically, it's just more interesting and fun to play as a team, IMO -- and I agree with Yurai that it's a better test of skill, too, because in proper team matches you can't just pick an OP class and expect to dominate opponents using just one skill combo or strategy over and over in every situation. You have to constantly adapt to new challenges, b/c the teams you face will vary and they'll be using many varying approaches depending on which classes they're using and what type of teamwork they excel at.

1v1s basically boil down to each opponent throwing out catching moves until one connects, then following up with a combo, retreating, rinse, repeat. In team matches, the whole affair is so much more dynamic, b/c you're forced to consider how to defeat not just one opponent, but multiple opponents at the same time -- and you also have to be thinking not just about the dangers they present individually, but how they might combine their skills to devastating effect.

[hungfido]

I agree with team tournaments. Since each class has their own strengths and weaknesses, a team of individual classes will force to equalize the imbalances. Since the teams will be on par in terms of strengths and weaknesses, what's left is based on the players in the team (skill level).

Having a longer tournament can be more worthwhile. This calls for to0n's suggestion on having a winner and loser bracket from the start. At least the first round losers will have a 2nd chance at claiming constellation prize.

[samxslam]

I agree with team tournaments. Since each class has their own strengths and weaknesses, a team of individual classes will force to equalize the imbalances. Since the teams will be on par in terms of strengths and weaknesses, what's left is based on the players in the team (skill level).

Having a longer tournament can be more worthwhile. This calls for to0n's suggestion on having a winner and loser bracket from the start. At least the first round losers will have a 2nd chance at claiming constellation prize.

Yeah your right. But these guys want to put up own team. That mean we can put a whole team of pally or so. If it was random people teaming then it be fair. Putting a team together of own choice will not be good.

[StormHaven]

Random teams are a terrible idea. You could end up with a whole team of pallies then also.

[samxslam]

Random teams are a terrible idea. You could end up with a whole team of pallies then also.

Same as making a whole team of pally if its not random team.

[Rimmy]

Yeah your right. But these guys want to put up own team. That mean we can put a whole team of pally or so. If it was random people teaming then it be fair. Putting a team together of own choice will not be good.

That's why I mentioned restricting teams to having one of each class. So you couldn't have, for instance, two or three pallies on one team.

[Jumpluffspore]

Someone needs to draw up a table of classes that are weak against other classes and work with making teams in accordance to imbalances. Players can still pick their teams, but they can't stack something like a pally with a myrm.
Also I'm wary of anything over a 2v2. Most of those matches end up in lock and it's rather boring.

Edited by Jumpluffspore, 29 October 2011 - 06:51 PM.