489 replies to this topic

[Unifan]

I'm sure they would put a sharing cd on all items that are alike so people couldn't do that.

but that is not nerfing green ales, if they do that, they also nerfing ygg seed or possibly berries, so this thread was made purposely to nerf those 3 items, instead of trying to decrease the amount of ales obtain by bots.

[rikai]

Ales are mainly used for WoE afaik, wish you luck having GMs attend those tickets in time. Most guild leaders buy Ales for their members, making them account bound is pretty senseless and will rend them useless in some cases. Just change their weight, code them like runes or ancillas, put some cooldown and make the hats account bound and level restrict it to 100 +, that will help you with your botting problem

I believe you're confused, i was referring to account bounding the hats, not the ales.

[Unifan]

@Lambor: i have a ton of ales, i lead the Valkyrie guild and I still think this is good move that should have happened a long time ago. It's okay to be selfish but there are limits buddy. And one of them is being an ass to people just because they cant reach your level of selfishness.

im prety sure when it comes to selfishness u had no right to talk. looking @ the valkyrie woe, your guild/aliance prety much defeat the game, that nobody even bother woeing. unlike in ymir when there are guilds that actually are competitive. if woe on ymir were like valk/ygg, then he prolly can say the same thing.

[Razgriz]

I believe you're confused, i was referring to account bounding the hats, not the ales.

Oh my bad, yeah you are right

[Lambor]

Can't wait for Valk/Ymir merge. If that'll ever happen.

rofl.

[Asuki]

im prety sure when it comes to selfishness u had no right to talk. looking @ the valkyrie woe, your guild/aliance prety much defeat the game, that nobody even bother woeing. unlike in ymir when there are guilds that actually are competitive. if woe on ymir were like valk/ygg, then he prolly can say the same thing.

you got that right, on ymir we break alliances if they ever get to strong, healthy competition keeps the game going instead of the monopoly u guys have on valk, ya go farm the server and say other ppl are greedy lol

[Zinja]

if the intention was to really nail the botters and exploiters on this . it should follow the scenario as was suggested already or something on similar lines of Account binding them this maint and Using that to nail the botters . i for once, think some these are pretty ok suggestions.

Edited by Zinja, 01 November 2011 - 07:07 PM.

[Shane]

I farmed 60k ales over the st. patricks day event, to date I have sold/used 43k, and have 17k remaining. I would be pretty pissed if all ales were deleted, as I spent a lot of time farming them up. I would not be terribly against account binding them, considering I have no real reason to sell them anymore because the market has stagnated with the amount of bots farming them. Regarding the weight issue, I agree that they are too efficient right now, but putting them up to 20 weight is kind of a bit of an overreaction.

In WoE, there are many instances where something simply does too much damage that you can't outpot it with whites, ranked or not. For this, ales are necessary. Some classes can survive these types of situations due to rather large HP pools comparatively, but others get the shaft if they're unable to carry as many ales for burst healing. Unfortunately, the ones who benefit the most from ales (high hp pools) also typically have high str, so they can carry even more ales than the lower hp pool classes. What it boils down to is damage is too high right now for there not to be ales in the game in bulk quantities, people will not be able to survive GvG situations with slim whites.

If you're going to nerf the ability to carry ales, then consider buffing the hp restore of whites, or perhaps nerfing melee damage in woe in general.

Kind of rambly and I lost my train of thought, but removing ales altogether or making them large weight will serve to make woe a lot less action-oriented. A few key classes will be all you need to wipe out entire enemy forces (that's done now, but without burst healing from ales it will be more pronounced).

Consider fixing the defense bypass bug that everyone's using nowadays as well.

Edited by Shane, 01 November 2011 - 07:07 PM.

[CyFire]

Account Binding the hats wont make any difference. As it is if a bot has the hat and gets banned that hat is gone anyway. Net effect of account binding the hat only = 0. With ALL the changes Heim proposed we would see the Ales and the bots botting them leave. The added weight may be the only unessary thing for this to work.


What we do need to see, however (like so many people pointed out earlier), is the current pots (whites and slims and such) do more. They were not reblanced well enough to deal with renewall.

Edited by CyFire, 01 November 2011 - 07:06 PM.

[fenryl]

im prety sure when it comes to selfishness u had no right to talk. looking @ the valkyrie woe, your guild/aliance prety much defeat the game, that nobody even bother woeing. unlike in ymir when there are guilds that actually are competitive. if woe on ymir were like valk/ygg, then he prolly can say the same thing.

i'm not sure whether i should mock you or pity you for that amount of ignorance... and I just looked at castles on ymir, solo guilds holding entire realms? really? looks like since insur left, that server might as well be called ygg 2.0, except only baddies are left on it...

[Minced]

but that is not nerfing green ales, if they do that, they also nerfing ygg seed or possibly berries, so this thread was made purposely to nerf those 3 items, instead of trying to decrease the amount of ales obtain by bots.

I could be wrong but im pretty sure there is no one with accounts full of ygg seeds and berries. iRO made a mistake by not taking action earlier and making people think the way the game was supposed to be played was to spam these ales like they are white pots.

you got that right, on ymir we break alliances if they ever get to strong, healthy competition keeps the game going instead of the monopoly u guys have on valk, ya go farm the server and say other ppl are greedy lol

I hope this was just a bad joke...

Edited by Minced, 01 November 2011 - 07:07 PM.

[rikai]

Account Binding the hats wont make any difference. As it is if a bot has the hat and gets banned that hat is gone anyway. Net effect of account binding the hat only = 0. With ALL the changes Heim proposed we would see the Ales and the bots botting them leave. The added weight may be the only unessary thing for this to work.


What we do need to see, however (like so many people pointed out earlier), is the current pots (whites and slims and such) do more. They were not reblanced well enough to deal with renewall.

Last i checked, account binding the hats means when a bot gets banned, they cant start a new account and obtain another hat like they have been, therefore permanently cutting off their ability to farm.


Please explain how this logic is faulty, because i fail to see how you don't understand it...

[Lambor]

I don't see how that'll "nail" any botters? If they are account bound, nobody is gonna stick out like a sore thumb. Maybe some 30k accounts will, but it's not having them that gets you banned. It's getting caught. And since the GMs already made their intentions public, I'm certain that none of the botters will be botting post maintenance. So we'll end up having accounts with bound ales. And then they'll release the binding.

[Anchors]

I am entirely against the following two suggestions:
(1) Adding a level requirement to the hat over 99;
(2) Making the St pattie's hat account bound.

Regarding (1)
Personally, I usually only "farm" ales on my lower level characters where having the right effects on your hat doesn't matter much. I currently have a whopping 98, all of which I farmed myself. I might have had 120ish had I not wasted a bunch on my first attempt at the Warlock job change test. Also, my highest level character is 109 and I plan to leave him there for now. I am simply not interested in getting higher base levels quickly. Having a level requirement in the 100-150 range would make my convenient hat for emergency rations on quests where the odds appear to be against me useless to me.

Looking at the bigger picture: I'm wondering where the high levelers with their high-level requirement pat hats will go when ale/blank drops are disabled on all the farmable nub maps? Low-level turn-in maps and orc dungeon, two places where nublets who may want to level up to job3 (and using the st pattie's hat) will suddenly have a more difficult time leveling. A lot of maps will have to be constantly switched on and off for ale drops just for one stupid headgear.

Regarding (2)
I almost wouldn't care about this if we could have about 30 characters per account and still be able to multi-client them. But we can't; we get up to 3 by default and up to 9 if we purchase VIP. I dunno about everyone else, but I switch between characters and accounts very frequently during my RO time, and I'd certainly be irate for being unable to both level and farm with my St Pattie's hat on. (Tending to a lot of characters is about efficient management after all.) Please, please do not force account binding onto this hat, which has been tradable for a good amount of time now.

tl/dr for this section: The changes proposed in (1) and (2) would suck, and I'm not summarizing it any further than that for the lazy people.

---

I read a few posts about how making just about any of the suggested changes will drastically alter the way WoE has been done since the ale surplus hit iRO. I have also read that WoE was never meant to be dependent on what were supposed to be emergency supplies/occasional boosts. It's a little late to try any kind of hotfix for these two issues, and I read Heim writing about how this is the time to do this etc etc, not to mention the posts about how this is too sudden, not enough warning yada yada yada...

That said, why not implement smaller, gradual ale changes until the skill balance patch is on our main servers? There are a lot of changes to damage, for instance, as well as cast times and delays and whatnot. If ales are slowly nerfed and players are given something of a schedule, all the inflexible QQers will have rather more time to adjust with a lot of the QQing replaced with somewhat gentler whining.

I know it's easier said than done, but time the final nail in the coffin on ales as the primary restorative WoE consumable to match up with the first major implementation of the skill balance patch on the main servers. Once all the skill changes are finalized, tweak the ales as needed until a good compromise is met.

tl/dr: Point is, the skill balance patch will significantly change WoE mechanics and flow anyway, so give us some time to adjust to this other proposed significant change in current WoE mechanics/flow. We've spent a lot more time in renewal WoE WITH ales than without, anyway, I think.

---

As for eventual changes to the ales to aim for, I'm all for the cooldown idea. We don't want to post-hypnotic-ly encourage binge drinking, after all.

Barring that and being a little more serious, I'm not sure if account-binding for the ales themselves will solve much of the ale dependence in WoE (though it'd solve a lot of ale-farm-botting); only that a lot of endgame will become farming ales (read: godawfully, ragequittingly boring) unless the drop rate is significantly increased. I do think the weight increase is reasonable, however, even if such a huge weight increase is currently not. (But you could always just slightly boost ale weight over the next few maints until target weight is reached.)

[CyFire]

Last i checked, account binding the hats means when a bot gets banned, they cant start a new account and obtain another hat like they have been, therefore permanently cutting off their ability to farm.


Please explain how this logic is faulty, because i fail to see how you don't understand it...

You are correct. What Im pointing out that the binding alone wont work since the same thing happens to the hat weather or not the hat is account bound.

[Zinja]

Reminds me of the times there were words of such intensity between chaos/iris/loki and then ymir came and created of huge mix of such people who taunted each other into one guild. hehe, its funny how they all magically seem to get along forgetting some of the intense words exchanged, can be no greater proof that some ppl change and some faster than others.it is only a matter of time when such a scenario repeats itself.

[fenryl]

@lambor: I dont think an ymir/valk merge will happen anytime soon, however we might get the cross-server woes since kro got them like a year ago.

[IronFist]

account bounding them isnt going to help, you'll just have certain players with 30k ales sitting in storage, these wont dissipate fast and if anything this will increase usage.

Weight.... so if i put say, 2000 ales into my cart, what would that doo ... hmm (good idea)

I think the best option is to remove this effect from st patties hat. But indeed these hats will soon skyrocket if the only way to obtain ales is from them.
Dracula has by far the biggest mob, 1 hit ko of 15 monster kills every 2-3 seconds... botting is by no means the fastest way to obtain ales

OVERALL the solutions here is, Keep them the same weight, dont change the effects BUT instead give them a DECENT sized cooldown
With the new White Potions which heal more and have a cooldown, this seems to be the most fitting solution

Edited by IronFist, 01 November 2011 - 07:23 PM.

[Tora]

Increased weight is a good idea.
A slight reuse delay is okay. (Yggdrasil berry 3 seconds, Yggdrasil Seed 2 seconds, Green Ale 2.5 I think this is fine for post balance patch, it's still a better spam rate than High Heal which I use well enough in PVM situations)
I don't think hats should be disabled or removed.
I don't think ales should be limited per character.

I read comments that the damage in WoE is too great and they need to spam Ales. Playing priest in war for quite a while, I found that you either survive a skill and are able white pot to full health quickly or you get one shot, so most classes with a health under 35k don't really need more than a dozen ales in a difficult spot, that is if their guild can stabilize the situation. Ales are mostly used by high health classes to spam and tank everyone for a while or used for SP to guillotine fist. I believe increased weight and a slight use delay are the only things necessary.

[Mefistofeles]

10 seconds for green ale and ygg seed and 15 seconds to berrie ONLY FOR WOE AND PVP, let then be spameble for pvm XP

[rikai]

You are correct. What Im pointing out that the binding alone wont work since the same thing happens to the hat weather or not the hat is account bound.

It does in fact work though, thats my point.

It wouldn't work if there were a way to renew the amount of hats out there, but since there are a limited number of hats on a limited number of accounts, over time the amount of botters with access to hats will go down, assuming the GMs actually ban the bots.

Are we going to account bound every single item botters bot?
Because if not, all that account binding ales is going to do is piss off a bunch of people, create 2 tiers of players (those with stockpiled ales and those without), and botters will move on to the next high value item, of which there are many.

Binding ales has no net benefit, binding the hat does, hence the people actually taking the time to think about it suggesting that route.

No matter what decision they make, some segment of the people are going to get screwed, that's unavoidable unless they completely scrap the idea.
I'm advocating the position that will have the most impact against bots while minimizing the impact against players.

[IronFist]

i was thinking more of, 30 seconds.... cause ur main pot's should be made by the guild
Yggs are still balanced no point in changing these

But ALES!, intoxication, tisk tisk come on people drink responsibly

SECONDLY, THE ONLY REASON BOTS ARE MASSING ALES IS +4-+7 IS SAFE!! kinda kills the point of the higher the + the rarer the items / the more that was sacrificed

Edited by IronFist, 01 November 2011 - 07:23 PM.

[Wizard]

10 seconds for green ale and ygg seed and 15 seconds to berrie ONLY FOR WOE AND PVP, let then be spameble for pvm XP

This will be a good idea after balance patch comes live... same as it is now on kRO...

PS: 7 Days...

[Lambor]

Account Binding the hats wont make any difference. As it is if a bot has the hat and gets banned that hat is gone anyway. Net effect of account binding the hat only = 0. With ALL the changes Heim proposed we would see the Ales and the bots botting them leave. The added weight may be the only unessary thing for this to work.


What we do need to see, however (like so many people pointed out earlier), is the current pots (whites and slims and such) do more. They were not reblanced well enough to deal with renewall.

If you don't bind the hat, a botter could stock up on hats today and when they get banned, they make a new account, put a hat on it, and start up again. They'll eventually run out of hats, but it'll take longer.

If you make them account bound, they can't give one to their new bot, so they can't start up again after the first is banned.

[CocaCola]

Funny how 90% of the people calling out botters are the ones botting ales