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Green Ales and why so angry?


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#126 Aishu

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 07:30 PM

Increase ale weight to 20 (keeps them slightly better than ygg seeds while still not allowing massive amounts to be carried)
Make the hats account bound (as the bots with them get banned it will kill the bot supplied ales eventually)
Make the hat/spare card not work on abuse-able maps (Wiping the memo's if you have the time)

Leave ales trade-able (if you want to reduce the amount of ales, 1 person having 30k+ only using 100 or less a woe is gonna take a long time)


botter's don't like my logic :\

Edited by Aishu, 01 November 2011 - 07:36 PM.

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#127 Wizard

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 07:35 PM

Funny how 90% of the people calling out botters are the ones botting ales


I was wandering the same thing...

PS: 7 Days...

Edited by Wizard, 01 November 2011 - 07:35 PM.

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#128 Shane

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 07:37 PM

ppl mad i mentioned the defense bypass bug? :)

Sry, if they're nerfing ales I can't survive your 35k storm blasts or 25k auto attacks anymore, that :dunno:'s gotta go.
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#129 Wizard

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 07:38 PM

Increase ale weight to 20 (keeps them slightly better than ygg seeds while still not allowing massive amounts to be carried)
Make the hats account bound (as the bots with them get banned it will kill the bot supplied ales eventually)
Make the hat/spare card not work on abuse-able maps (Wiping the memo's if you have the time)

Leave ales trade-able (if you want to reduce the amount of ales, 1 person having 30k+ only using 100 or less a woe is gonna take a long time)


botter's don't like my logic :\


Hi Lisa... lol... we gotta thanks Ebb for this I guess lol...

I guess there will be no permanent solution until balance patch adjust WoE skills...

Either that or putting WoE reduction damage to 60% or more...

PS: 7 Days...

Edited by Wizard, 01 November 2011 - 07:38 PM.

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#130 Lambor

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 07:38 PM

People need to stop thinking short-term. There's a obvious zeny drain on the servers (Ymir at least). Zeny is scarce for most, it seems. That didn't happen over night, did it?

Yes, there's a problem with Green Ales on the servers, but people need to start thinking about what will be preferred the most in the long run.

If ales are made account bound, short term, no more bots, but a valuable way for people to make some zeny is lost and guilds/people that bought ales for guild use are now useless and/or resale are no screwed. If hats are made account bound, short term, there will be bots now, but they will disappear drastically over the next month or so to the point where the only hats that remain are on legit players with legit intentions.

Change takes time. Forcing account bound ales to fix the problem today will solve the issue, but at what cost? Obviously upsetting a lot of people. But if a more favorable approach is taken that rewards the legit players by letting them keep their ale income while slowly weeding out the botters, everybody is happy in the long run.
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#131 YouLie

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 07:39 PM

http://bit.ly/u3NBjP

*sigh* ur all deceifed. no many bot farming ,just 1 bot farm many 10000+ ale

see fer urself
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#132 llzarrockll

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 07:41 PM

disable them in woe
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#133 Lambor

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 07:43 PM

And there can't be a damage nerf to WoE. It's already rediculous, and things are gonna be outta control once the balance patch hits.

We have a 30 second cool down on Mandragora Howl that was imposed for "now", but once the skill patch hits and the effectiveness is lowered, that 30 seconds will basically make this skill even MORE useless. And the same thing goes for WoE damage multipliers. By lowering the damage now (and it was lowered pretty recently too, right?), things are just going to be more chaotic. We're taking less damage as it is, and then we're gonna get skill nerfs. So, imo, people are gonna be invincible. I'm just gonna call it now.
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#134 rikai

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 07:43 PM

People need to stop thinking short-term. There's a obvious zeny drain on the servers (Ymir at least). Zeny is scarce for most, it seems. That didn't happen over night, did it?

Yes, there's a problem with Green Ales on the servers, but people need to start thinking about what will be preferred the most in the long run.

If ales are made account bound, short term, no more bots, but a valuable way for people to make some zeny is lost and guilds/people that bought ales for guild use are now useless and/or resale are no screwed. If hats are made account bound, short term, there will be bots now, but they will disappear drastically over the next month or so to the point where the only hats that remain are on legit players with legit intentions.

Change takes time. Forcing account bound ales to fix the problem today will solve the issue, but at what cost? Obviously upsetting a lot of people. But if a more favorable approach is taken that rewards the legit players by letting them keep their ale income while slowly weeding out the botters, everybody is happy in the long run.


+1

Refreshing to have people that actually think about the far-reaching implications of these fixes and post intelligently unlike the majority of the people wanting a band-aid fix that will screw up things for everyone, rather than fixing the problem they are trying to address.
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#135 epikhigh

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 07:44 PM

People need to stop thinking short-term. There's a obvious zeny drain on the servers (Ymir at least). Zeny is scarce for most, it seems. That didn't happen over night, did it?

Yes, there's a problem with Green Ales on the servers, but people need to start thinking about what will be preferred the most in the long run.

If ales are made account bound, short term, no more bots, but a valuable way for people to make some zeny is lost and guilds/people that bought ales for guild use are now useless and/or resale are no screwed. If hats are made account bound, short term, there will be bots now, but they will disappear drastically over the next month or so to the point where the only hats that remain are on legit players with legit intentions.

Change takes time. Forcing account bound ales to fix the problem today will solve the issue, but at what cost? Obviously upsetting a lot of people. But if a more favorable approach is taken that rewards the legit players by letting them keep their ale income while slowly weeding out the botters, everybody is happy in the long run.


agree with this 100%! Then again, I don't think any changes should be made UNTIL THE BALANCE PATCH COMES. It's like saying people are already frustrated that you delay everything, you mine as well delay this green ale changes as well.
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#136 FoxyWoxy

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 07:44 PM

First I apologize for only seeing this thread now. Regarding the botting of Green Ales. I was aware the only way to optain Green Ales was through +7 St Patrick's Hat. Granted I have seen some bot farms recently (obviusly since it's now free to make a character) none of them semed to have any headgear at all. Please clarify?
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#137 Wizard

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 07:45 PM

People need to stop thinking short-term. There's a obvious zeny drain on the servers (Ymir at least). Zeny is scarce for most, it seems. That didn't happen over night, did it?

Yes, there's a problem with Green Ales on the servers, but people need to start thinking about what will be preferred the most in the long run.

If ales are made account bound, short term, no more bots, but a valuable way for people to make some zeny is lost and guilds/people that bought ales for guild use are now useless and/or resale are no screwed. If hats are made account bound, short term, there will be bots now, but they will disappear drastically over the next month or so to the point where the only hats that remain are on legit players with legit intentions.

Change takes time. Forcing account bound ales to fix the problem today will solve the issue, but at what cost? Obviously upsetting a lot of people. But if a more favorable approach is taken that rewards the legit players by letting them keep their ale income while slowly weeding out the botters, everybody is happy in the long run.


At this point in the game... whatever solution GM's might implement, will carry consequences for either side... legally players and botters...

Just start thinking that there will be no "Happy Ending" to this...

PS: 7 Days...

Edited by Wizard, 01 November 2011 - 07:47 PM.

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#138 Dreimdal

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 07:47 PM

1. Increase Weight so at least in WoE they are less likely to have hundreds on them. It also brings them in parity to the Yggdrasil Seeds that they were meant to mimic.

Yes, weight should have been increased long ago. This is a very powerful item and the weight should properly reflect that, as it already does on Yggs (as you've pointed out).

2. Account bound : In the short term this is to get them trapped so we can deal with farmers. in the long run it makes them a seasonal sale, so in March and maybe September we can do Green Ale events where they are tradable and those that participate in those seasons get ahead.

The only problem with this is that people can still sell them, thus giving an incentive to keep farming them, you're merely limiting the period during which they can be sold. Personally, I'd go all or nothing. Make them non-tradeable, PERIOD. OR go with your idea number 4 below. If you make them non-tradeable completely, increase the selling window to 6 weeks, so people can completely unload any excess ales, and to be fair to people who've acquired them legitimately.

3. Disable the St Patricks Hat : This was considered, but since the hat was upgraded it causes problems with compensation with debuffing a hat, and truly punishes everyone.

Well... It should have been disabled back when the St Patty's event ended, but it wasn't, so now it's too late for this option. Can't change the past.

4. Adding a long reuse delay on Green Ales, this wouuld only affect the WoE usage and their value a little bit but wouldn't stop farms from profitting.

This one sounds good. If I could choose only one idea, then it'd probably be this one. 10-15 seconds. Raise the delay on the Yggs too. All those items that restore a percentage need to be used in only the most dire of situations. They're very much overused right now, and allow people to survive who, frankly, have no business surviving. The spamming needs to end.

In teh early days of WoE (prerenewal, but especially the good days of 2004-2005), you didn't get people running around surviving everything thrown at them. People dropped, and they dropped hard. It's a war and people are supposed to die in it. That said, in those days we didn't have third classers where almost every single person has a one-shot or two-shot kill attack. Hopefully the ongoing balances will help with this...

Also, raise the power of normal potions and also heal skills. Part of the problem is that those are a bit underpowered, practically forcing people to rely on OP items to live long enough to make a difference in battle.

5. Deleting all the Green Ales in the game, and then make sure that farming locations are not efficient. I know this would stop the issue temporarily at the cost of considerable community backlash (I know I'd be P.O.ed).

I'm pretty sure deletion would cause a number of people to quit. It's a bit extreme so let's rule that one out right now.

The second part of your idea, of making the farming locations inefficient, that's still good and should be implemented ASAP. Also, find a way to prevent people from accessing maps they're not supposed to, via old memos. Don't yet know the best way to do this, but it should be done.

Edited by Dreimdal, 01 November 2011 - 08:40 PM.

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#139 CyFire

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 07:48 PM

I wasn't saying to not make the hats account bound. I agree with that. What Im saying is that doing that alone would not solve the problem.
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#140 Chicboy

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 07:49 PM

To Heim: Since ur doing this major change to stop botters might as well remove ygg seed drops form aligators and stem worm also. w/ love slims users
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#141 TheSquishy

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 07:53 PM

Increase weight-fair
Reuse delay-fair (even Heal has a 1 second delay)

Concerning account bound Ales and Hats-doable:

I could support making green ales themselves account bound under certain criteria.

-It's done suddenly without giving the community a precise date. Give us say 1 or 2
weeks notice that it is going to happen and randomly change it. Real players won't
be caught off guard.

-Account binding is temporary. Let it last for however long GM's need to clean out the obvious botters


-Create a trade-in that encourages players to deplete their personal stores. 10 ales for an eden badge.
People are devouring badges like candy with TI reset. Give us all favorite dungeons for TI lvl 100-150
and those green ales will disappear in a week.

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#142 Carp

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 07:53 PM

Before you do something about the ales, improve the effectiveness of slims/mastelas/etc first. The very reason why people became reliant to ales because slims/mastelas/fat whites is outdated and SUCKS. They are comparable as potting red potions prerenewal days.
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#143 Minced

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 07:58 PM

People need to stop thinking short-term. There's a obvious zeny drain on the servers (Ymir at least). Zeny is scarce for most, it seems. That didn't happen over night, did it?

Yes, there's a problem with Green Ales on the servers, but people need to start thinking about what will be preferred the most in the long run.

If ales are made account bound, short term, no more bots, but a valuable way for people to make some zeny is lost and guilds/people that bought ales for guild use are now useless and/or resale are no screwed. If hats are made account bound, short term, there will be bots now, but they will disappear drastically over the next month or so to the point where the only hats that remain are on legit players with legit intentions.

Change takes time. Forcing account bound ales to fix the problem today will solve the issue, but at what cost? Obviously upsetting a lot of people. But if a more favorable approach is taken that rewards the legit players by letting them keep their ale income while slowly weeding out the botters, everybody is happy in the long run.

People need to stop thinking that the iRO wanted ales to be like this. I don't think anyone disagrees with your idea of binding the hats but there are other things that need to be done also.
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#144 Lambor

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 08:01 PM

I still don't see how a temporary account binding on Ales will make botters stand out. I brought this up before.

So. Let's use the TKM that was posted in the image a couple of posts back by YouLie.

He has a storage of 30k ales, let's say. The GMs make them account bound, but it's temporary, so they can catch the botters. Now, they are looking through the DB and they see this guy with 30k ales. It'd be false to say "He has 30k, let's ban him." They'd have to catch him in the act. And once they become tradeable again, he'll just pass them off anyways. I doubt whoever the c0nartist was on that TKM would be dumb enough to farm ales while they are account bound. So the GMs would never be able to catch him anyways.

But! If they made his hat account bound, yes, his 30k ales would leak out onto the market eventually, but they would get eaten up quick. My guild goes through about 2k every Saturday WoE. Add in the rest of the WoEers out there, plus PVMers and all. They'd be gone in a month. And now that his name is out there, people will be looking for him. And he also won't have access to that old, inaccessible Eddga map that that screenshot was taken on so he can't farm in an area where he doesn't have to worry about getting caught.

He'd get banned sooner than later and the hat would be gone forever and he'd have no way to farm ever again.
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#145 Lambor

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 08:07 PM

People need to stop thinking that the iRO wanted ales to be like this. I don't think anyone disagrees with your idea of binding the hats but there are other things that need to be done also.


Agreed. Slims used to be effective at potting like...4k damage a hit in WoE (BB damage? I can't remember what it was). They aren't enough to pot 30k+ damage in WoE.

To keep the same effectiveness as they had pre-renewal under the assumption that they were just enough for 4k damage a hit in WoE, to successfully be able to out pot a Storm Blast, they'd need to have their recovery amount multiplied by something crazy like...7.5x.

The problem in that example is that Storm Blast is broken. So that might be a poor example, but yea. People get the picture.
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#146 Minced

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 08:10 PM

Hence I also said about 3 times in the thread that whites need to be buffed to compensate for the nerf to ales. As I said before multiple things have to change not just the change to ales.


Also in terms of damage and hp go it's pretty much the same that 4k bb damage was hitting people with 6-8k hp pools, just like the SB is now hitting people with 40-60k hp pools. The only thing that didn't happen was white pots effectiveness didn't increase.

Edited by Minced, 01 November 2011 - 08:14 PM.

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#147 kite24

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 08:15 PM

Keep those HATS (not the ales) account bound, increase the weight, and get a person who'll focus his work with banning bots.

Or just exchange the hats for something else that'd help. That'd probably kill the ales soon. But make sure you get/increase a potion's effectiveness that'll match mastela's effectiveness before renewal.
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#148 HRdevil

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 08:16 PM

What I think about this:

1- Making St.Patrick hat account bound: Everything Lambor said I agree with this. Especially the part where the bot has bulk amount of green ales hat and cannot give them a hat to their new bots.

2- Trading St. Patrick hat for other items : I'm willing to trade my St. Patrick hat for a black devil mask or sunglasses [1] but I cannot tolerate an exchange for -_-ty short term items like +10/+20 foods. F.uck this idea.

3- If Green ales are going to be taking out of the economy completely for now allow trade ins for it : like +20 foods/+10 HD ores eden merit badges.

4- Encreasing potting efficiency: Pots in general needs a buff, not overpowerly but I think it needs a 20% Woe buff perhaps. In pvm its a joke how easy it is and for MVP'ing is a joke also, people depending on ales is just lame.

Edited by HRdevil, 01 November 2011 - 08:18 PM.

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#149 Wiggles

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 08:16 PM

Remove all Green Ales from server... or... Account bound all green ales.


Effectively for some people will be the same thing.
For me, I keep all my healing items on the same account. Which is my potter/forger.

So yeah, 10k Ales will be locked to my forger/potter.. effectively useless.

Do I get a refund on all the gum I used while killing snakes for coins?



Edit: I should probably contribute something. I like Lambor's idea. Also you should item/zeny whipe the person caught doing it in the above screen. (even though that jackass owes me money still)

Edited by Wiggles, 01 November 2011 - 08:18 PM.

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#150 lrresponsible

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 08:18 PM

Before you do something about the ales, improve the effectiveness of slims/mastelas/etc first. The very reason why people became reliant to ales because slims/mastelas/fat whites is outdated and SUCKS. They are comparable as potting red potions prerenewal days.


THIS. ^

Give us back our ales or increase the effectiveness of pots. Because as of now, they're pretty useless.
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