39 replies to this topic

[TheUraharaShop]

Simple;

-Watch
-Take away that most games are not designed like this anymore, just walls of text, then muddling around and it not really telling what to do next
-It should give a CLEAR objective by introducing a character stronger than you and telling you YOU CAN GET THAT STRONG
-Discuss on how some simple changes can really change the way a game is received by players, both old and new in the early stages of the game .

It's guaranteed that you will go "Ah what tha -_-!?! That's exactly how I want a game to be introduced to me"

Edited by TheUraharaShop, 03 November 2011 - 09:11 AM.

[wonka]

great a very very funny megaman video but i get the point~ i like'd it

[wonka]

i loved roll saying "megaman! megaman!" that was epic hilarious

[Mefistofeles]

true........... at least in crash they just give you a free waku waku mask if you keep getting killed like an idiot, now even the super mario bross wii have a mode where they do the work for you........... BUT BIOSHOCK ITS THE BEST GAME EVER..............................

[Tsurugi]

I lol'd. Thanks for making my morning a good morning.

Megaman 4 Eva.

Edited by Tsurugi, 01 November 2011 - 11:09 PM.

[IronPlushy]

I'm assuming that this video is posted in reference to how unfriendly the new player experience is in ragnarok. As one of the freshest new players, I think it is fair to say that RO is not the freshest of new player experiences (see what I did there?). It really boils down to the game mechanics. RPG mechanics are several degrees more advanced than platformer mechanics, and ragnarok is no exception. Gameplay is deep, but I would guess that most new players never find that out. Mega Man X is a great example of an intuitive tutorial. Ragnarok isn't as terrible as one might expect. I mean novice class? That's genius, you're allowed to test the basic classes before you even have to decide? It's great. But ragnarok is deep and complicated, it's fundamental gameplay is careful planning and pinpoint customization.

At one end of the RPG spectrum is FFXIII. Streamlined exploring, essentially none for the first 30 hours. Action from the start, very limited customization.

At the other end is a game like Ragnarok. Exploration is limitless. Customization is limitless. A pleasant experience is highly dependent on careful planning.

FFXIII is very newbie friendly, you stat with limited simple mechanics, gain a few paradigms and spirits, pogress, not too much planning involved.

Ragnarok is very unfriendly to new players. One thing new players are not good at is detailing all their plans for progression in a brand new game. Gear, stats, skills, careful planning can be the difference between an unpleasant and pleasant experience. I mean when I started for the 4th time, I thought placing points in vit and str was an obvious choice for a swordsman, then I found out that a vit knight isn't the best choice for a new player. New players might not realize the greatness of flywings. Don't know how to level efficiently at the start. Are unaware of how to get to Eden, are unaware of turn ins and Eden missions. And have zero clue how to manage zenny. What level do you have to bring a Merchant to before they can vend effectively? What new player wants to drag a character into 20's, only to start the whole thing over with a new character? It's just stupid game mechanics. And why are there Cool Event, Kafra, AND Eden? It would be much easier and require far less tutorial dialogue if it was just one group.

The game is fundamentally flawed for new players. I think a lot of things that were implemented to inhibit bots now inhibit new players. This game REQUIRES that you constantly use irowiki, and it is a huge pain for new players to have to read a guide just to play a game. The tutorial should be intuitive enough that referencing the forums and irowiki isn't a constant necessity. A player should be able to look at the classes on the mainsite, maybe reference the forums and ask questions about a class they might like, or even just base their decision on testing in the newbie grounds. They shouldn't be punished for not knowing what the stats do. I mean doesn't every game tell you what stats do in the game? Just scroll over STR in your equip window and it says "Increases ATK, Carry weight, etc." Is that too much?

Starting Ragnarok is like doing a report. I studied Battle Priest and asked millions of questions, just ask Xellie or Squishy.

1. I still think Mentor players would be an excellent idea. Just a pool of players that can are willing to answer questions at designated times. Maybe they're automatically added to your friend list, and you can decline this option.

2. The price of potions is too damn high! The price of pot should be balanced against a crappy player using a vit knight who collects loot. The last thing a new player wants is to come to the realization that they have no money. And a new player doesn't want to drop what they're doing to make an effective merchant. I don't give a crap how ragnarok has always worked. This necessity of making a merchant in early game completely detracts from any immersion a new player might experience. It is new player repellent. Once they're comfortable and enjoy their second class character, with a variety of abilities, and maybe they have their eye on a certain card or equip. THEN it's ok to utilize a merchant.

I do love and appreciate the rebirth system. It's like a test run where after you rebirth, NOW the game is serious. You have a chance to do what you wanted to do the first time. The novice class and rebirthing is just excellence. I would suggest that normal characters level faster, just so a new player isn't discouraged before they have a chance to rebirth.

3. Maybe suggesting ragial in game is a good idea. Let them know there is a reference site for items. But it detracts from immersion to have to look up every item you gather. It is time consuming, and for the most part boring and pulls players away from immersion. Is there a way to change the font color to indicate an items worth outside of NPC selling?

Okay it is super late and I should wrap things up. These are the delirious musings of a very green player. If you want to see any other new players making these kind of contributions, you need to create an environment conducive to retaining new players. Please give serious consideration to what I've said. I am not colored by years of Ragnarok experience so I am coming at this with the fresh perspective of a new player. I mean, how many years ago were any of you new at this game?
P.S. I liked the first three Mega Man Battle Networks, I never played the original mega men.

[Mefistofeles]

I'm assuming that this video is posted in reference to how unfriendly the new player experience is in ragnarok. As one of the freshest new players, I think it is fair to say that RO is not the freshest of new player experiences (see what I did there?). It really boils down to the game mechanics. RPG mechanics are several degrees more advanced than platformer mechanics, and ragnarok is no exception. Gameplay is deep, but I would guess that most new players never find that out. Mega Man X is a great example of an intuitive tutorial. Ragnarok isn't as terrible as one might expect. I mean novice class? That's genius, you're allowed to test the basic classes before you even have to decide? It's great. But ragnarok is deep and complicated, it's fundamental gameplay is careful planning and pinpoint customization.

At one end of the RPG spectrum is FFXIII. Streamlined exploring, essentially none for the first 30 hours. Action from the start, very limited customization.

At the other end is a game like Ragnarok. Exploration is limitless. Customization is limitless. A pleasant experience is highly dependent on careful planning.

FFXIII is very newbie friendly, you stat with limited simple mechanics, gain a few paradigms and spirits, pogress, not too much planning involved.

Ragnarok is very unfriendly to new players. One thing new players are not good at is detailing all their plans for progression in a brand new game. Gear, stats, skills, careful planning can be the difference between an unpleasant and pleasant experience. I mean when I started for the 4th time, I thought placing points in vit and str was an obvious choice for a swordsman, then I found out that a vit knight isn't the best choice for a new player. New players might not realize the greatness of flywings. Don't know how to level efficiently at the start. Are unaware of how to get to Eden, are unaware of turn ins and Eden missions. And have zero clue how to manage zenny. What level do you have to bring a Merchant to before they can vend effectively? What new player wants to drag a character into 20's, only to start the whole thing over with a new character? It's just stupid game mechanics. And why are there Cool Event, Kafra, AND Eden? It would be much easier and require far less tutorial dialogue if it was just one group.

The game is fundamentally flawed for new players. I think a lot of things that were implemented to inhibit bots now inhibit new players. This game REQUIRES that you constantly use irowiki, and it is a huge pain for new players to have to read a guide just to play a game. The tutorial should be intuitive enough that referencing the forums and irowiki isn't a constant necessity. A player should be able to look at the classes on the mainsite, maybe reference the forums and ask questions about a class they might like, or even just base their decision on testing in the newbie grounds. They shouldn't be punished for not knowing what the stats do. I mean doesn't every game tell you what stats do in the game? Just scroll over STR in your equip window and it says "Increases ATK, Carry weight, etc." Is that too much?

Starting Ragnarok is like doing a report. I studied Battle Priest and asked millions of questions, just ask Xellie or Squishy.

1. I still think Mentor players would be an excellent idea. Just a pool of players that can are willing to answer questions at designated times. Maybe they're automatically added to your friend list, and you can decline this option.

2. The price of potions is too damn high! The price of pot should be balanced against a crappy player using a vit knight who collects loot. The last thing a new player wants is to come to the realization that they have no money. And a new player doesn't want to drop what they're doing to make an effective merchant. I don't give a crap how ragnarok has always worked. This necessity of making a merchant in early game completely detracts from any immersion a new player might experience. It is new player repellent. Once they're comfortable and enjoy their second class character, with a variety of abilities, and maybe they have their eye on a certain card or equip. THEN it's ok to utilize a merchant.

I do love and appreciate the rebirth system. It's like a test run where after you rebirth, NOW the game is serious. You have a chance to do what you wanted to do the first time. The novice class and rebirthing is just excellence. I would suggest that normal characters level faster, just so a new player isn't discouraged before they have a chance to rebirth.

3. Maybe suggesting ragial in game is a good idea. Let them know there is a reference site for items. But it detracts from immersion to have to look up every item you gather. It is time consuming, and for the most part boring and pulls players away from immersion. Is there a way to change the font color to indicate an items worth outside of NPC selling?

Okay it is super late and I should wrap things up. These are the delirious musings of a very green player. If you want to see any other new players making these kind of contributions, you need to create an environment conducive to retaining new players. Please give serious consideration to what I've said. I am not colored by years of Ragnarok experience so I am coming at this with the fresh perspective of a new player. I mean, how many years ago were any of you new at this game?
P.S. I liked the first three Mega Man Battle Networks, I never played the original mega men.

in kro they implemented a web browser in-game already, then you can open ragial from the game

and if you noticed already,this game its based on your social skills, becouse you wont know to do a-_- if no one tells you XD, like the main links: irowiki,ragial/ragnastats etc...

Edited by Mefistofeles, 01 November 2011 - 11:27 PM.

[TheUraharaShop]

Play the old ones and then Megaman X, you'll see how easily adding in a sliding feature and continues side scrolling on a map help re-create an old classic that lasted well over 20 years. Grab an emulator and rom and you should be good to go.

But I did read your post, quite good. I agree with everything, expect for the potions, that's a different discussion for a different time.

If we look at some of the job change quests for the 2nd classes, we can see how they show you how to play the class.

[Zayik]

Ego-Raptor is the man!

[Luckywhiterabbit]

I wish people would stop fawning over old games like museum pieces. These are some solid game design tips but they don't apply to every genre, nor do they apply to modern games in which the systems are usually a lot more complex than jump, shoot, wall jump.

Some texual direction is necessary in newer games because in most cases there is a lot more to learn.

Edited by Luckywhiterabbit, 02 November 2011 - 12:06 AM.

[kite24]

Really smart vid. I guess every megaman game was like that (except for legends).

[TheUraharaShop]

I wish people would stop fawning over old games like museum pieces. These are some solid game design tips but they don't apply to every genre, nor do they apply to modern games in which the systems are usually a lot more complex than jump, shoot, wall jump.

Some texual direction is necessary in newer games because in most cases there is a lot more to learn.

If that's the case, if games should be left behind because the industry changes, when will players realize that most gamers aren't looking for a grind majority of the time when the play a game? iRO falls in that category... so should we kick it to the curb and stop fawing over it? Or should it be changed to help compete with other MMO's, RPGs, and other games in and out of it's genre?

But every explanation of what needs to be done in iRO for majority of its life span has been focused on text teaching players. Seriously, players would spam enter to get past the walls of text; if this method worked, any player that started playing should be able to understand how the game works in the first 2 minutes. While it takes about 10 minutes for a player to really start to understand what role they play. Hell do they even know who they're suppose to defeat? Satan Morroc? Bapho? Dark Lord? That d&ck in pvp? What about your stats? Gear? Leveling spots and progression? It's not clear, which is the point.

Edited by TheUraharaShop, 02 November 2011 - 12:44 AM.

[Orlim]

I am very sympathetic to your cause, but:

This game has as much in common with a sidescroller like megaman X as a dolphin has in common with a rock.

While there are many more "intuitive" MMORPGs than Ragnarok Online, they achieve this at a significant cost at a different end of the game. May it be immersion, customizability or general complexity. There will be some drawback.

Ragnarok Online has been designed originally to be a long term grind game that was supposed to be done in a party or with friends willing to make sacrifices for their other friends (slaving, leeching etc.).
As a new player in Ragnarok Online you are EXPECTED (common sense since you decided to play an MMOG) to make friends and find a tutor or someone that can answer questions about the game.
I find it sickening that MMOGs are currently being designed like single player games with a multiplayer option i.e. World of Warcraft, Rift and many many more recent titles. Ragnarok, at some point, jumped on to that bandwagon and discouraged partying (somewhere post rebirth).

This is a MultiPLAYER game. Your social skills are your guide. Make friends and ask questions. If you are unable to achieve a dialogue you might find many MMOGs un-fun. Stick to SNES games?

<3

[TheUraharaShop]

I am very sympathetic to your cause, but:

This game has as much in common with a sidescroller like megaman X as a dolphin has in common with a rock.

While there are many more "intuitive" MMORPGs than Ragnarok Online, they achieve this at a significant cost at a different end of the game. May it be immersion, customizability or general complexity. There will be some drawback.

Ragnarok Online has been designed originally to be a long term grind game that was supposed to be done in a party or with friends willing to make sacrifices for their other friends (slaving, leeching etc.).
As a new player in Ragnarok Online you are EXPECTED (common sense since you decided to play an MMOG) to make friends and find a tutor or someone that can answer questions about the game.
I find it sickening that MMOGs are currently being designed like single player games with a multiplayer option i.e. World of Warcraft, Rift and many many more recent titles. Ragnarok, at some point, jumped on to that bandwagon and discouraged partying (somewhere post rebirth).

This is a MultiPLAYER game. Your social skills are your guide. Make friends and ask questions. If you are unable to achieve a dialogue you might find many MMOGs un-fun. Stick to SNES games?

<3

Trolling we see...

They are in common because most of the content of Megaman would be classified as having the basic makeup of a RPG. Similar to how a Shooter on Rails has the similar makeup to a First Person Shooter. An MMO progression isn't based on social skills, how ever it is based on what you do with in the world and (it) should have an effect on that world; aka Rift and it's dynamically changing world. For Ragnarok Online however, there are only a hand full of quests and content which is depended on socializing or to have a certain number of players complete it to progress - i.e the seal quests. So when you go "Insert trolling remark" I'll refer you to the push for about 3 years to get more party oriented game content and the nay-sayers who tell them to just solo rather then just party with them... why? Because it's all about the EXP and the DPS, not about the social interactions.

You say you hate how it's all moved to that "lone wolf" mentality, however you forget The farther backward you look, the farther ahead you can see.

The similarity has nothing to do with the styles specifically; it's more focused on the fact that the game is over 20 years old and still has a strong following. What they're doing specifically in terms of game design, of course cannot be applied here. However the concept of building on top of an existing system with small and simple additions can HELP CREATE A WHOLE NEW GAMING EXPERIENCE and can create a CLEAR INTRODUCTION TO THE GAME TO HELP PLAYERS UNDERSTAND HOW TO PLAY AND PROGRESS TO THE END GAME is the point of watching it.

Seriously, who are we suppose to be defeating? Satan Morroc? Most players when they start have no idea what to do first. Really what is the first thing a player should do? How do they know how to progress if there is no clear line of progression. Just bunch of quests that kinda sorta tell you what kind of cluster -_- you're stepping in to, but really doesn't prepare you for the at least a (calendar) year of training and luck needed to attempt to defeat that MVP. But wait... what are these messages about this person or group taking a castle? WTFITS!?!?! Yeah no clear introduction to that either.... Again, which is the point.

Edited by TheUraharaShop, 02 November 2011 - 01:27 AM.

[Orlim]

I am a bit sad that you feel that I am "trolling" you. I can assure you that that was not my intention and I am having a hard time seeing how you came to that conclusion. Perhaps our viewpoints are just too far apart to find common conversational ground.

I get the feeling, from your posts so far, that you would like to see the game moved to an objective based style where the game hands you the objective and you go out and try and achieve it. Streamlining the game to give new players an insight to the higher level content right from the beginning and so forth. Please let me know if I am misunderstanding you. I have to admit I have a hard time extracting the underlying points from your posts.

My personal love for Ragnarok Online began in the open beta days. There were NO quests. ZERO. You had some small optional item related quests and the novice and job related quests not more. I love(d) the fact that I had no clue what I should be doing or where I should be doing it. I enjoyed exchanging information with other players to optimize my leveling or talking about what items to find where (at that time there where NO item databases). And even now people have to host and maintain fansites for database content. People post and formulate class specific guides and they are never final and always open to comments or optimization for a specific role. You figured out along the way what it was that you wanted to do. Many players just saw the game as a colorful chatroom and still do! Some take their WoE seriously (This was not even released until MUCH later). Some took MvPing seriously and aimed for that when they got killed the first time by running in to Eddga.

I think I am trying to convey to you that there are many different styles of games and game introductions. If you like Exel and Flowcharts and Economics go play EvE Online! If you like bright colors and top notch gear dropping on your head with constant gratification go play WoW! If you need an NPC to hold your hand and guide you through a game and tell you "What it's all about" go play RIFT!
I play Ragnarok Online BECAUSE you get punished for dying in PvE, because you can mess up on you character build/creation, because you are forced to make friends along the way or hang the game on the rack and because you are not constantly influenced; consciously or subliminally(a la megaman) on what it is that you should be doing.

Gravity, over the years, has tried to make the new player experience much MUCH easier. Free POTIONS! o m g, I wish i had that when I started loving the game. Now you come out of the training grounds ready to change job! They even let you try some skills! Some basics are submitted to you to read or not. I have to admit it is not yet a complete introduction but alone by doing what they have done they completely eliminated your novice life... and a complete experience there of... *reminisce.

I will certainly expect a new-age-esqu ragnarok II, but this game has been made easier and easier and easier over the years which in terms (in my book) makes it less and less and less rewarding in the long run. My good friends (IRL) that I have played this game with quit shortly after transcendence due to bad game design decisions that you would have likely praised.

I would love of you if you would cease your superimposing attitude. I stated in my first response that I respect your views and concerns, but I also disagree with them. I am getting sick of the Global homogenization of the gaming market. bleh...

have a great day, honestly.
<3

[TheUraharaShop]

Spoiler

I am a bit sad that you feel that I am "trolling" you. I can assure you that that was not my intention and I am having a hard time seeing how you came to that conclusion. Perhaps our viewpoints are just too far apart to find common conversational ground.

I get the feeling, from your posts so far, that you would like to see the game moved to an objective based style where the game hands you the objective and you go out and try and achieve it. Streamlining the game to give new players an insight to the higher level content right from the beginning and so forth. Please let me know if I am misunderstanding you. I have to admit I have a hard time extracting the underlying points from your posts.

My personal love for Ragnarok Online began in the open beta days. There were NO quests. ZERO. You had some small optional item related quests and the novice and job related quests not more. I love(d) the fact that I had no clue what I should be doing or where I should be doing it. I enjoyed exchanging information with other players to optimize my leveling or talking about what items to find where (at that time there where NO item databases). And even now people have to host and maintain fansites for database content. People post and formulate class specific guides and they are never final and always open to comments or optimization for a specific role. You figured out along the way what it was that you wanted to do. Many players just saw the game as a colorful chatroom and still do! Some take their WoE seriously (This was not even released until MUCH later). Some took MvPing seriously and aimed for that when they got killed the first time by running in to Eddga.

I think I am trying to convey to you that there are many different styles of games and game introductions. If you like Exel and Flowcharts and Economics go play EvE Online! If you like bright colors and top notch gear dropping on your head with constant gratification go play WoW! If you need an NPC to hold your hand and guide you through a game and tell you "What it's all about" go play RIFT!
I play Ragnarok Online BECAUSE you get punished for dying in PvE, because you can mess up on you character build/creation, because you are forced to make friends along the way or hang the game on the rack and because you are not constantly influenced; consciously or subliminally(a la megaman) on what it is that you should be doing.

Gravity, over the years, has tried to make the new player experience much MUCH easier. Free POTIONS! o m g, I wish i had that when I started loving the game. Now you come out of the training grounds ready to change job! They even let you try some skills! Some basics are submitted to you to read or not. I have to admit it is not yet a complete introduction but alone by doing what they have done they completely eliminated your novice life... and a complete experience there of... *reminisce.

I will certainly expect a new-age-esqu ragnarok II, but this game has been made easier and easier and easier over the years which in terms (in my book) makes it less and less and less rewarding in the long run. My good friends (IRL) that I have played this game with quit shortly after transcendence due to bad game design decisions that you would have likely praised.

I would love of you if you would cease your superimposing attitude. I stated in my first response that I respect your views and concerns, but I also disagree with them. I am getting sick of the Global homogenization of the gaming market. bleh...

have a great day, honestly.
<3

What you need to realize, majority of the players didn't progress through this game (or any other games for that matter) as you did. However you're focus is still stems from the years of you playing the game. If you were a new player, which is my main argument and the point of the video; the game doesn't help tell the story. Being in a world with NO CONVEYANCE is a bad game. If you watched the video you'd see the game Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde; which is a clear comparison to iRO. If play the game enough you'll know exactly what to do when to do it, but that takes along time to do since there is NO CONVEYANCE.

As for your own experience, the end game is always hard to deal with; this is not me superimposing.
Please read; very helpful
http://mhauckonline....o-make-mmo.html

So there SHOULD be SMALL changes made not big made and then clearly defining what changes are being made to which specific Game Stages. Because them making Novice Potions Account Bound rather then being trade able, never affected you, only the new players. ON the same token, when they changed some of the HP and VIT on the MVP's, that didn't affect the 1/1 Novice, it effected the player who clearly was in the end game stages; being you.

We need to recognize where we stand in terms of new and changing content and how it's suppose to affect the players in those Game Stages. Or we just need some conveyance to help direct players through the game as any other game, TV show, Book, Manga or any story in general. When there is little or no conveyance; things start looking like a M. Night Shyamalan movie @_@.

Edited by TheUraharaShop, 02 November 2011 - 02:22 AM.

[Luckywhiterabbit]

If that's the case, if games should be left behind because the industry changes, when will players realize that most gamers aren't looking for a grind majority of the time when the play a game? iRO falls in that category... so should we kick it to the curb and stop fawing over it? Or should it be changed to help compete with other MMO's, RPGs, and other games in and out of it's genre?

But every explanation of what needs to be done in iRO for majority of its life span has been focused on text teaching players. Seriously, players would spam enter to get past the walls of text; if this method worked, any player that started playing should be able to understand how the game works in the first 2 minutes. While it takes about 10 minutes for a player to really start to understand what role they play. Hell do they even know who they're suppose to defeat? Satan Morroc? Bapho? Dark Lord? That d&ck in pvp? What about your stats? Gear? Leveling spots and progression? It's not clear, which is the point.

It's not meant to be clear, that's the point. in an MMO like this, you decide what your goals are. It's not a simple side-scroller where players must defeat Dr. Wiley at the end of stage whatever and become stronger than Douchezero.

It's a game where you learn how to fight, then go find something to apply it to, and get strong enough to fight stronger monsters. Everything else is up to the player.

I can't stand the stress of WoE so I just farm ales and try to make money. I could care less about Satan Morocc and such.

[TheUraharaShop]

It's not meant to be clear, that's the point. in an MMO like this, you decide what your goals are. It's not a simple side-scroller where players must defeat Dr. Wiley at the end of stage whatever and become stronger than Douchezero.

It's a game where you learn how to fight, then go find something to apply it to, and get strong enough to fight stronger monsters. Everything else is up to the player.

I can't stand the stress of WoE so I just farm ales and try to make money. I could care less about Satan Morocc and such.

That's a bad argument @_@.

For the most part, it shouldn't "hold your hand" but when a player joins there should be some clear concept of what the game wants the player to understand, become a part of, and complete. The world to iRO is very simple to understand JUST AFTER you struggled to understand, read the countless guides and posts on a forum board OR you get someone to show you what to do and you're able to progress. Quite frankly, for the longest, new players aren't helped, they're alienated and insulted by older players, coupled with the lack of conveyance to help guide them to some objective many have walked away. Proof being... people from all game stages have walked way.

You dont learn to fight in RO, you struggle to fight. Most of the information you needed to learn to play was never conveyed until way- WAY after the fact. Seriously, many players who've started have honestly -_-ed their first 5 to 10 charactera over; it took me about 12 characters to get it right. First with a Rouge with Vit and Luk, to a Full Forge Blacksmith, fast forwards to a VIt Hunter, then to an ME Priest, DD Assassin, Vit Knight, Stings Bard and so on.
http://ropd.info/?account=3874571

5 years of play just to be slightly above the average; which shouldn't be the case. A player who just started to day shouldn't be placed on the same level of expectation of understanding game mechanics and progression as a Vet. would. Honestly a friend of mine has a +4 Tripple Saharic Ice Fist for his Combo monk that had no Agility or when he created a Kingbrid Broad Sword [1]. Yeah...

When a player starts, they need to know what to do, hell even in Pokemon, you need to know you need to do;
-rescue some people from the bad guys
-kick ass and take names

Every where in between, the [any] story guides you to that final fight. Since the game has Conveyance most who've played get it and understand who's suppose to get the ass stomping and are able to progress towards... well stomping in more friends. From the very first fight, you have a very clear understanding how how things work. Once you've progressed in, about your 5th badge, you understand what most effects are, you're seeking to gain more information on which Pokemon to use for your final fight and of course ROOM TO MAKE MISTAKES. iRO, doesn't allow you to make mistakes which is the biggest turn off to the game in addition lacking a straight forwards plot that players can draw a clear line of causation between them selves and defeating the bad guys.

When can you go "Hey I want to do this" and the plot line leads right towards it; players do feel more apart of the story; they want to play the game. Not to beat, but to watch them selves grow in to the warrior that they were told they could.


About you...

Spoiler

A bit of a check... http://ropd.info/?account=3967228 If it's only about farming Ales, there would be no purpose in leveling, transcending [and possibly] or reaching 3rd Tier. Those higher classes don't make it easier to get them because you can get as many as you collect on average with simple 2nd class characters. So there is a conundrum being that the only reason why you'd strive to get 3rd teir is to follow along with the end game plot, since you'd be able to avoid woe and farm for Ales with out them.

Edited by TheUraharaShop, 02 November 2011 - 09:01 AM.

[IronPlushy]

For anyone to say the game is fine the way it is, especially the beginning segments, just shows how out of touch veteran players are. Veterans are so immersed in this game, they tend to be blind to its numerous faults. Of course it's easy for YOU to start a new character, you know how EVERYTHING works, you know exactly where to go, and exactly what to do. You have access to gear and zenny, you have access to your guild and friends. You are so deep seated in the game, you cannot possibly imagine what this game is like for new players. Yeah you were new once, but how many years ago was that? What were videogames like 4-8 years ago? How vastly different were MMOs 4-8 years ago?

A new player comes into this game with a certain set of expectations. They will passingly discover Ragnarok through warp portal, see a video of WoE on youtube, check MMOHut's top rated list and listen to the glowing view. More unlikely they will be recommended by a friend. They will be drawn to the cute sprites, deep class system, glowing reviews, and the hint that this game is infinitely deeper than it appears to be.

A new player will enter this game with a general idea of what class they wanted to be. They will get this idea from the homepage and maybe the forums.
The first thing they are greeted with is a customization window. For new players, the allocation of these few stat points may seem tremendously significant to play, like the few stat points you are given in a game like Fallout. Even though the window gives zero indication of what the stats do.

They are transported to an unknown area, have to read 30 walls of text, arguably they will reach a point where there is too much damn reading and rapidly press enter. They will not understand the significance of fly wings for combat. Grudgingly, after endless walls of text, they make their way to the training grounds. They have their gear and a basic hunting mission. They are gradually understanding the basic game mechanics. Click to walk, click to attack. They won't know all the hotkeys right away so they use alt+v constantly to access menus. They won't realize you have to allocate your stat points right away. They won't realize you have to warp off the map you are on to complete their first few missions.

After deciding their class, and being forced to reach level 10, they will be teleported to the proper job for their town, complete their job change, and check their quest window to find it empty. They will be confused at this point. They will wonder what they did wrong. Hopefully a new player will start talking to every npc, searching for a quest, talk to the eden teleporter, they may or may not choose to warp, and will end up in a room crowded with hundreds of vendors. Assuming this is some kind of marketplace they will leave.

Eventually a new player will get out of town, even though entrances are nothing more than a red dot on the map. They go out in the field and start killing things. They are successful. They continue killing, gaining job levels, learning 1 or 2 skills, learning hot keys. Hopefully they are not killed by someone's MVP like I was 4 separate times. After they kill for a while they may return to town, find the shop, and see that the loot they collected is worthless. Either they continue on the first map, or they explore into another area. On a map like Prontera Field 1, there is a 50% chance they will go to a safe map for their level, or they will go to the desert and get killed by a pecopeco. It should occur to them that the red lettering was an indication that the specific monster was too strong for them. They might stay on the first map, explore somewhere else, or just quit at this point because the game doesn't appear to have a point.

Every MMO they played before gave them some kind of objective that pulled them into the story. They were sent to a town, found even more missions there, were sent to a specific place, maybe discovered a cave, were given gear with a slot and a crappy card, just to learn how cards work. Were sent to the upgrade NPC to learn how to upgrade equipment. Maybe they are sent to hunt and collect from a specific monster, and they learn of a valuable drop. Ragnarok has absolutely no conveyance. It is fine to discover things in this game, grinding until you can go deeper into a dungeon, stumbling on a quest which is pretty unlikely, finding a great place to grind, learning some of the games history or legends.

New players will be reluctant to talk to other players, hostile environments like WoW or Maple Story make new players apprehensive about asking for help. I think automatically friending like 4 different mentors for new players to ask questions would be great. I think being given the first eden quest when you start is an excellent idea. Instead of getting a worthless badge just give them the first quest. They go to their job town, change jobs, check their quests, BAM they have a quest. Ideally it wouldn't be in Morroc, because when a new player checks the map, there is no route to Morroc. You do have to hold their hand the first few hours, just so they can settle into the game.

A NEW PLAYER HAS NO REASON TO CONTINUE PLAYING THIS GAME. THEY HAVE NO EMOTIONAL ATTACHMENT, THEY HAVE NO VESTED INTEREST IN CONTINUING TO PLAY. There are thousands of MMOs and if you can't convince a new player in the first 2 hours that they should be playing Ragnarok, they WILL find a new game that grabs them.

Changes must be made to the new player experience. The new player experience is clumsy, has next to no conveyance, and at times is punishing, not to mention boring. I agree that discovering things is fun, that crafting your own adventure can be a truly rewarding experience. But you have to understand that new players enter this game with a certain set of expectations. They expect a comfortable amount of guidance without an avalanche of text. They expect some kind of imperative after changing from a novice. You have to have a beginning mission, you have to have a potion system that is forgiving for new players. New players are not going to overlook this games mistakes. At a certain point they will be fed up with the lack of direction. They have no reason to embrace a free MMO. They didn't pay for the game so they do not have to give it the same chance as a game that cost them money. Players today do not have the attention span they did 11 years ago.

In the video, Dr Jekyll and Mr. Hyde was cited as everything that can be wrong with a videogame. That extreme lack of conveyance coupled with the punishment of new players will deter the vast majority of new players. Things have to change. It does not matter what drew the veteran players to this game. You're already here, we are not trying to draw you in again. We are discussing the new player initiation. Stating that you enjoyed the lack of conveyance does not help bring new players to this game. It is the lack of conveyance that drives people away; it does not drive them in.

[Oda]

Great discussion, I want to hear more perspectives but the beginning of the game is something that we do want to make a better experience.

[Zayik]

I think an emphasis of learning through play and not wall of texts is a great thing. I have played this game for so many years, and even though I know what the basic novice grounds are saying, I get annoyed spamming enter through it to get levels. I think that's a big turn off to some people. Its not necessarily reading that turns them off, but, not being able to play and spending x amount of time reading. The novice grounds should have a more "give hints" and small advice as you go on. I know complex games are hard to put out so much information and have the player truly learn. That process of condensing all sorts of information in easy ways for players to understand is great. Players don't need to be told that monsters can be aggressive or not. Just have a zombie start running towards them. They're going to be like OMG A FRICKEN ZOMBIE WHAT THE HELL?!?! IT'S GONNA GET MEEEEE!" Fabres, I guess are aggressive in the novice grounds, but I think a low level zombie would do the job much better and demonstrate that monsters can be aggressive. I know this is a VERY BASIC and to many seems like common sense. Its just the method of teaching that I really like which Ego-Raptor demonstrates in his video.


I think RO needs to be driven by storyline more. I like how expansive the world is, but, doing a lot of the quests seems pointless, or just a means of gaining experience. It feels like a bunch of quests were made and just clumped together. You have to SEARCH for the quests, rather than knowing about them, RO has such a huge and immense storyline, but I think players rarely ever get involved in it. I know I haven't, but the Satan Morroc part is interesting too.(I'm still pissed about Morroc being changed!!!!!!) I likes my happy Morroc music.
I think, if players knew a bit if the story line in the beginning and had a series of storyline quests post-training grounds, it'd be fantastic. This would attract new players not only through gameplay, but also the story. Players could learn the world through these quests as well, rather than having to randomly go to x place to find y monster that will give z experience. It will become, players will go to x place to explore y storyline that they're interested in, and in the proccess find z monster. That's a huge difference.

How many times have you guys said %$%$# or ^%$^#@#$#^%$#^^%*%^ ^%&^%&^% &^%&^ Because you finally learned about a really great leveling place only to find out you need to do 7430958403 quests to get to it? This mentality in my opinion is brought on by the lack of appeal of learning the story. Players haven't been caught in, and due to that, feel like they have to spend hours reaching that place. I understand this would happen to players who've done the quest before, but at least the first time would be a great experience rather than a chore. Anyways, that' all my gibberish talk for now! Off to class!!!!!!

And don't make the quests require huge amounts of traveling from town to town. Let me clarify, make it so if a destination will lead to a town, make the path of quest points LEAD to the town. Maybe you gotta go through a spooky forest or something to find a person. (And *wink wink*, the forest actually leads to the next destination) I'm tired of these quests that say go to pront! NOW MORROC!! Haha, you made it here, go back to PRONT! And some old granny wants to speak to you in izlude! Now back to MORROC! Now pront! BWAHAHAHAHA!! Where your zenny at now ##$%$#!!! Thats what some of these quests feel like btw.

Edited by Zayik, 02 November 2011 - 01:20 PM.

[TheUraharaShop]

That's a very good question... do we still have the legacy forums (on a side note)?

For the most part, showing how potions work, combat, trading, heal items, seeing their 1st class in action all before they start passing out stats, would be the best.

The best question would be... is it possible to have two monsters fight each other? We can glitch them... but it would be nice to see if we can get them to attack each other to show 1st class combat... or possibly can we get them to use skills Like for Ninja; Blaze Shield, Gunslinger Desperado, Archers; Improve Concentration and Thief: Hide. Showing players has a more profound effect then pushing them straight to "the wolves".

Also can a buffer map like Prontera be created. This map would be the stepping ground between the training grounds and the rest of the world. This shows rather then tells them how things fall into place.

Also... could you all make a Skills called "Novice Bolt" and "Novices Heal", this could really help a player try to deiced what kind of character they want:

Melee
Caster
Support

[Scuba]

Spam through the intro dialogue, skip the tutorial and start winning. That's how its supposed to be.

See^ easy. 1 line. Did not need to be in essay form.

Edited by Scuba, 02 November 2011 - 01:44 PM.

[Oda]

I've been encouraging the fungineers to create some tutorial videos, but the task is open to anyone. Youtube is so ubiquitous at this point that it could be a very useful teaching tool for new players to get into the game.

[TheUraharaShop]

I've been encouraging the fungineers to create some tutorial videos, but the task is open to anyone. Youtube is so ubiquitous at this point that it could be a very useful teaching tool for new players to get into the game.

Using Youtube to show how dynamic a class and in action is great for showing the depth of a class and skills, however seeing it happen while you're actually there, gives more of a connection to the game. iRO doesn't have cut seems, so we should improviser.

When a player sees something during the game play and then be able to reenact it, or peruse it, gives meaning to the story.