42 replies to this topic

[iZola]

Do YOU know about a way to use knuckles and still have the same effectiveness when using a Carga Mace?
I'm almost sure that most of us make Monks to play with knuckles.
But don't you think that the size modifiers are too much on them? (100% Small / 75% Medium / 50% Large)
Why there isn't any knuckle class weapon nearly strong as a Carga Mace?
Some days ago I was thinking with some guildies about how to overcome that.
But the only thing that comes to mind is a Drake Card. (Me, for example, can't double client, so no blacksmiths)
But how to use that card while the strongest claw out there have just one card slot?
Wouldn't you love if Drake Card was moved to acessories slot?
I'm aware of the card set that casts weapon perf. but the rate is too low.

[Ramen]

Not only that, but why is it that maces only have 2 less aspd than knuckles? That's bullcrap.

[IronPlushy]

Are you complaining that Sura's pre-class has a nerf?

[iZola]

@Ramen
Totally agree. If the reason for the lame knuckles is the aspd, I wouldn't mind getting a knuckle as strong as a mace with -2 ASPD.

@Iron Plushy
What I'm whining about is the weapon itself, not the pre-class nerf
It would be fair if size modifiers were around 75% Small / 100% Medium / 75% Large.
And we still had a knuckle as strong as a Carga Mace.
Even if Iron Fists lv10 there's no knuckle like that, know what I mean?

[Charon]

Some love for instruments and daggers too please

Daggers never reach the "omg awesom atk" range of swords and the like.
What if their specialty was that the size mods were all 100% then? XD

[TheSquishy]

I think it would be nice if weapon types had specific pros/cons
that made sense.

Dagger penalty against medium makes no sense.
I think something like:

100% small
100% med
50% large

The idea of equipping a dagger seems to have been intended to be superior aspd, average damage, zero range.

Here's an idea...make all the weapon masteries eliminate the aspd penalty for the corresponding weapon.
(max study eliminates it for books). The masteries are a huge skill point investment, may as well make it worth it.

[iZola]

You said just what I had in mind about daggers.
50% on large is fair because classes that use daggers can still use swords.
How does size modifiers affect sinx that use daggers and swords at the same time?
Do they deal 100% on every size?
I remember that when I heard about Sura class coming, I was expecting for a way of equipping 2 claws.

EDIT: I meant, 100% Small & Medium / 75% large

Edited by iZola, 03 November 2011 - 12:24 PM.

[Ramen]

Right. As it stands, there is very little reason to use certain weapon types outside of them being necessary for specific skills. My thought process is something like this.

Fist - probably gonna be same size penalty as using bare fist. The point of fists should be to attack very quickly, while not necessarily being as powerful as a mace. The whole point of the fist is for players that are going to be attacking quickly. Frankly, I think that the mastery bonus for fists ought to be a pretty significant increase in attack speed rather than attack. For example:

Iron Fist

1 - ASPD +1%
2 - ASPD +2%
3 - ASPD +3%
4 - ASPD +4%
5 - ASPD +5%
6 - ASPD +6%
7 - ASPD +7%
8 - ASPD +8%
9 - ASPD +9%
10 - ASPD +10%

Instruments/Whips - I don't see why there needs to be a size penalty for these. Maybe people will think this is stupid, but when I think of these types of weapons, I think they should be focused on big time status ailments. They may be a little lacking in damage, but they would make up for it in the fact that they have fairly high chances to cause one or multiple status effects.

Daggers - I don't mind the size penalties for these that much, though I do think they should have a significantly higher attack speed advantage over other comparative weapons, even if they don't have quite the high attack.

[iZola]

If common sense worked on this game. Using knuckles/claws would have to be just like using bare fists, as you said.
I love your idea. As we are now, it would be quite pleasant to have this:

Size:......... ATK | ASPD
Small ......100% | 100%
Medium .," 75% | 125%
Large ....... 50% | 200%

Instruments: Even so, the penalties on them are great when compared to knuckles/daggers.

Edited by iZola, 03 November 2011 - 03:14 PM.

[asayuu]

I think it would be nice if weapon types had specific pros/cons
that made sense.

Dagger penalty against medium makes no sense.
I think something like:

100% small
100% med
50% large

The idea of equipping a dagger seems to have been intended to be superior aspd, average damage, zero range.

Here's an idea...make all the weapon masteries eliminate the aspd penalty for the corresponding weapon.
(max study eliminates it for books). The masteries are a huge skill point investment, may as well make it worth it.

Books don't have ASPD penalty. Actually using a book on a sage is faster than barehanded, and Study only enlarges this gap. As much as a Linker has no aspd penalty with daggers and then other classes follow the route.

But well, they are masteries after all. If you use well some kind of weapon, the speed really should be boosted, not only the damage.

And daggers, depends mainly of the class. A novice is faster with maces than he is with daggers. 5 ASPD points, to be more exactly.

This is weird though... Maces are the fastest overall weapon >.<

@Instruments and Whips:

Who melee with them? Well, maybe the low aspd is the reason to not use them >.<

Well, at least their masteries buff the bard and dancer skills.

[Charon]

As much as a Linker has no aspd penalty with daggers and then other classes follow the route.

What? My linker has so awful dagger aspd after renewal, that I haven't lvled it since..

[asayuu]

What? My linker has so awful dagger aspd after renewal, that I haven't lvled it since..

[iZola]

Not fair! :<
Knuckles still have speed penalties, small, but they are there.

[Recette]

Books need love too.

[iZola]

Oh well, this was about knuckles and it's size modifiers, but feel free to post about what bothers you in a weapon. ;]

[CeruleanGamer]

Ahhh asayuu, your level 98 Linker is bothering me. I wanna level it. xD Got lazy on the last level?

[asayuu]

Lalalalalalalalalalala~~~~~~~

Maybe I can put her on 99.9% and get the last 0.1% when the third class linker appear.

Also. About the weapons. Some size modifiers are weird. Like, the staff/barehand modifier is 100/100/100. Like... A STAFF CAN DEAL MORE DAMAGE THAN A KNUCKLE IN LARGE MONSTERS? [Both have around the same ASPD in a priest class, but the difference is huge on a monk class]

Drake Card, giving "only" Weapon Perfection is a little sick. I mean, this is double damage against Ice Titans if you use Ice Pick but... It seems a small bonus for one MVP card which equips in weapon.

Iron Fist could give both mastery and equipment attack if barehanded. And only mastery attack if using a knuckle. And giving a % modifier on skills by using a knuckle [like Advanced Katar Mastery]

Edited by asayuu, 04 November 2011 - 07:10 AM.

[Luckywhiterabbit]

Melee attacking in general needs to be stronger. Once a character gets their skills, it seems like you should never melee anything.

[RacistBlackMan]

spear size penalty always pissed me off, random sc takes my dragon away and im doing 25% less damage

[Kadelia]

imo the only problem with the size system is it is not balanced. Example being maces are 100/100/75 and daggers are 100/75/50. The numbers don't add up. Mace is better all-around. This would make sense if the marginal increase in attack speed actually made up for the lower ATK and the size penalty, but it does neither let alone both.

Since all the weapons in the game (except for, say, books and rods) are actually modeled after real world weapons that had variations designed for warfare against people, I'd dare say they should all have 100% vs medium. the justification in "well, weapon A would hurt more than weapon B" should be made with the ATK not an imbalanced size penalty system.

All weapons should have 100% medium; none should have less than 75% either-- due to how important ATK is. Some could have like 110% bonus on certain sizes to make up for this in terms of variation.

Examples;

Axe: S/75% M/100% L/110%
Mace: S/100% M/100% L/90%
Katar: S/75% M/110% L/100%
Dagger: S/110% M/100% L/75%
Knuckle: S/110% M/100% L/75%
Sword: S/90% M/100% L/100%
Spear: S/75% M/100% L/110%
Bow: S/90% M/100% L/100%
Book: S/100% M/100% L/90%
Rod: S/100% M/100% L/90%
Whip/Instrument: S/100% M/100% L/90%

Edited by Jaye, 04 November 2011 - 12:09 PM.

[iZola]

Also. About the weapons. Some size modifiers are weird. Like, the staff/barehand modifier is 100/100/100. Like... A STAFF CAN DEAL MORE DAMAGE THAN A KNUCKLE IN LARGE MONSTERS? [Both have around the same ASPD in a priest class, but the difference is huge on a monk class]

Funny because as a Sura, a staff is only good to heal, if you leave it at lv3.
I though Lightning Ride would be a magical attack, but it counts as a physical attack (wth?).

Drake Card, giving "only" Weapon Perfection is a little sick. I mean, this is double damage against Ice Titans if you use Ice Pick but... It seems a small bonus for one MVP card which equips in weapon.

What's worse about it, is that you can't uncard gears here. So, before realizing how troublesome size penalties would get, I was planning to use elemental fists.
But imagine getting one drake card for each elemental knuckle, it's insane, no?
Putting Magmarings aside, most of the leveling places for lv100+ only have Medium and Large monsters.

"Most Weapons suffer size-penalties against certain sizes, although it is only minor when looking at damage on a grand scale." - iROwiki

Minor? I hope that's some sarcasm or irony.

@Jaye - At least every job that have a mastery skill, should be able to deal 100% on every size. Or it wouldn't be a "mastery" at all.

[Raidius]

mastery at maxed lvl should remove size penalty, but maybe someone would think its too OP.
anyways knuckles should be buffed, i agree that suras shouldnt have to use a spiked awfuly looking club to do decent dmg.

[iZola]

It wouldn't be really OP as player sizes are Medium and Small.
Or is it large when riding mounts?
But well, when it comes to fighting monsters, no one complains about OP skills / weapons.

[iZola]

Last night a friend told me about weapons you can earn by giving 200 EMBs to a NPC on battlegrounds or something like.
I wonder if it includes a good knuckle. >.>

[NeoNilox]

200 EMB for a BG weapon? It may be either this one or this one.