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Upgrade Event, and future developments


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#76 Hrishi

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 03:14 AM

Are you stupid? It's not NECESSARY. It's a CHOICE to use the base item for an increased chance. I would, personally, take that choice to increase my chances at upgrading. If you would not, all the power to you.
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#77 Codface

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 03:32 AM

It makes no sense to develope such a system, in theory maybe it would work but in reality no.

Firstly if every item requires its base type of item to upgrade it means you either need to.
A, Make an npc that creates special 'HD Valk Maneau Upgrade Elunium' for each different item in game.
B, Carry 50 or so of the items to the npc to upgrade your item. GL with the weight unless you carry just 10 at a time and then your boned if it drops to 6.

Secondly enjoy upgrading a rideword hat or any kafka event hat cos your definatly not going to get 50 or so of those.

basically in a downgrade/upgrade system it wont work or be used often enough to warrent implementing.

I've already shot down why they wont introduce it in a none downgrade system so I wont bother repeating that.

It would possibly work in +12 and above areas as the upgrade rates are so low. But still at 1 in 10/20 chance do you really want to see people with +16 KVM weapons purely because they had over 100,000 kvm badgers left over from boxster events.

And on a pay to win side. Next time an immune shield is out. You really want it so that someone can spend 1000$ and get it to +20. Thought not

Edited by Codface, 09 November 2011 - 03:36 AM.

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#78 Hrothmund

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 03:36 AM

I dont neccesarily think the "no -1 downgrade" is a good idea, I just put it out there as an idea for debate.

I'm not suggesting things to oppose what your suggesting in EMB's, but gear consumption needs to be worked into it somehow and for me using gears to get enriched rates makes a lot of sense at the higher end of things. I do think EMB's are not a solution, because that would require most mvp gear to be convertable to EMB's to encourage gear consumption, which in turn throws the MVP summons out of whack.

Just because enriched doesnt grant a bonus on +9 to +10 at the moment doesnt mean it can't be changed to do so. Keep in mind enriched was released years before the upgrade limit increased so I consider it open to change as much as everything else.

Also please get out of the mindset that whatever solution is proposed should be feasable for every gear at every upgrade level. Thats one of the major negatives right now. ALL upgrade options should be feasible under the right conditions. Currently mastersmith upgrading is valid for about 2-3% of useful gears, enriched is valid for about 5-6% of upgrades and HD covers ~90-95% of upgrades, and thats just for +4 to +10.

Edited by Hrothmund, 09 November 2011 - 03:38 AM.

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#79 Ultimate

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 03:37 AM

This is a great idea Heim! Thank you very much. People must not remember when you had to buy 30 valk manteaus and armors, upgrade em all and end up with 7-10 of them at +7 if you were lucky. Then HD ore came along, we all loved the hell of it, and this is just getting even better. +10 to +14 is the new +7 to +10.
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#80 Codface

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 03:51 AM

I really have no viable idea about the high end mvp consuption problem.

You make them worth 50 eden badges and people will complain that it just encourages Tao farmers and would ruin what is a nice hand in scene.

Make them worth 5 and no one would use them for that

Give everything hidden enchants like the armor and everyone with a miniboss/mvp gear crys as its no longer best in slot.

Make them safe upgrade and it breaks the wpe system if done under +10 and if only above +10 it means next time we have a Cat Ear Beret type kp shop item everyone complains that its p2w as the rich kids all get it to +14.

Its a hard situation to sort.
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#81 Hrothmund

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 04:00 AM

I think consuming items during the upgrade process has the potential to work if done right. A lot of people would find themselves willing to sacrifice gears if it means the one they want survives the process with better odds.

It may require "advanced" EMB's that good MVP gear can be traded for, that can only be used for upgrading for example to combine mine and your suggestions. That solves the problem of it messing with MVP summons I think.

For example Valk armor = 10 gold merit badges (god im back in school again)

HD ore + gold badge = enriched HD ore

Now that has the potential to work great if you gear:badge conversion rate has the right balance. You still need large stacks of HD ores, but not as many as before. Heres the kicker though. People dont stop at +9/10/11/12 because thats their desired upgrade. They stop there because Thats as much as they can afford. IF the rates improve, people will still buy the same amount of HD ores. They will just end up in the +12/13/14/15 range instead so theres no real loss of kafra point revenue.

There will be a sweet spot at which people would start breaking down their gears (Aion had a neat system like that) which doesnt neccesarily need to apply to ALL mvp gear (its perfectly ok for recycling variants or valk armor etc to be uneconomical) so long as a decent amount, say for example when a gear reaches 5m in value or so it stops there

Edited by Hrothmund, 09 November 2011 - 04:03 AM.

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#82 FatherBob

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 04:03 AM

To be perfectly honest with you all, I don't like the current systems, or any of the proposals. Period. I'm not going say just how much of my paycheck went into getting my ONLY +9 item (be assured getting that weapon cost more than a single Benjamin). I'm not even going to bother trying to go higher than +9 (or +7 on anything else).

Would it make my gameplay more enjoyable if I did shoot for the highest upgrades? Yes, it most certainly would.

Would shooting for those high upgrades be worth it though when it comes to my wallet and my time? No. I could dump hundreds to thousands into trying to get all the goodies (with the low success rates...I'd still lose out), but there's better, tangible, things I can spend my time and money on. Like my girlfriend, guns, my car, my house, my family, etc...

Sorry, but all you'll be getting out of me for the time being is just enough to keep my accounts VIP.

Edited by FatherBob, 09 November 2011 - 04:05 AM.

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#83 Hrothmund

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 04:11 AM

I havent spent any real $$$ on RO since HD ores were first implemented, I just buy KP from other players or converables from vends. The longer you play the game, the easier it gets to make zeni. Take the recent spooky machine. I have 3 accounts each which has chars on both Ymir and Valk. I probably made 300-400m this month from the 3x battle manuals across both servers.

I shudder to think how many 3xBM's players who roll god seals might have made lol.

Point is with some time and effort $$$ is no barrier to using gears/services that cost kafra points.

Edited by Hrothmund, 09 November 2011 - 04:11 AM.

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#84 Channa

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 04:47 AM

Supposedly everyone has +9 KVM gear though, so this is an opportunity to possibly make the other stuff to 9 from 7. The current event won't help with +10 and higher stuff.


Haha, no, I just finally got a kvm staff on my ab. But I'm glad now for the chance to try and get it to +9
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#85 Heimdallr

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 04:52 AM

Actually eating 1 item to give its mate a better chance/sure chance is actually the idea I want to do. But instead of doing it at 7 and higher it would be at the 4-7 range. So the loss would be at the low end not the high end.
I know there are the safe certificates, those are intended to become very rare and likely used on Kafra shop items that you don't want to sacrifice to get safe tries at.

It is stretching the limits of the RO NPC commands to get it to compare what you are upgrading with something in inventory but I think it will work. One nut we can't crack right now is to have the game detect the upgrade level of item in inventory (non-worn) if that were possible I think a glorious pyramid upgrade strategy could be developed, like a +4 sacrificing a +4 gives a safe attempt at 5, all the way up. So a +9 would need another +9 to upgrade to 10 safely. It would take the "luck" from upgrading and would turn it into massive item destruction starting at +4. (2 4 8 16 32 64 to get to +10)

Basically sacrificing a Valk Mant would give you a safe to 7 upgrade chance on a +4->6 Valk Mant. Once we get to the +7 though that model would become "too good". Letting it have the enriched chance is fine, but giving it that + not degrading would be a huge problem, if the item degrades still it isn't a problem but it would become very item intensive.

Another idea tossed about but kinda shut down was giving gears a generic turnin to create HD/ Enriched or Certificates. problem is that value wouldn't equate out well in in-game terms. Getting 7 Nidhoggurs vs 7 certificates/HD doesn't equate at all and likely people would just turnin massive quantity of the easiest thing possible and never sacrifice the expensive stuff which is sort of the point.

First thing I need to do is run the numbers on how many attempts are saved when using enriched vs non-enriched, as my math fails and only simulation seems to give a real world predictable outcome. I am not a big fan of using 100s of HDs.
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#86 D111

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 04:53 AM

Haha, no, I just finally got a kvm staff on my ab. But I'm glad now for the chance to try and get it to +9


Grats on the Staff Channa, and good luck on getting it to +9. You should make Jav do it, he has super awesome luck with that upgrade NPC.

Edited by D111, 09 November 2011 - 04:54 AM.

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#87 Luckywhiterabbit

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 05:07 AM

I just got all my leveling gear to +9 (rideword, nidhogg, Pilebunker) so as you can imagine I'm very happy. +9ed all of my farming hats too (christmas tree, Garuda) and bought surplus elus by accident, but well worth it. This event seems overpowered if even a chump like me can upgrade to +9 but honestly it's made me very excited to finally have these things. I usually hate upgrading. It's stressful and really not fun.

Edited by Luckywhiterabbit, 09 November 2011 - 05:11 AM.

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#88 Ekichan

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 05:10 AM

whats next? safe armor enchant?
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#89 SaintlyVillian

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 05:38 AM

It seems to me we are still stuck on making the game easier, so newer players can succeed quickly, feel good about what they did, and spend more money on the game. This is a fine and dandy business model, and I'm sure it will be very profitable. I call it 'Sucker for the quick Reward Syndrome".

Now, say a player comes along who wants a quick reward, and gets his Lv 4 or KVM weapons to +9 right away. He has now skipped a whole process that all of the veteran players went through. This process is important, and it makes us all better players and marketeers. It's called risk. It develops a sense for business in those who don't have it, and makes that sense more keen in those who already do. Even with the safety certs, there is still risk involved. Yes, you got to 7 easily, but now you have to hit 9, and incur the cost and potential risk of degrading your weapon, and having to buy more certs to re-up it to 7 once again. That risk isn't completely taken away now, but it is lessened to a degree, because the system has once again been changed to make things easier.

You might say. "Well Dirty, this is a good thing, it will make more people competitive and the game will be more well rounded and fun!". And that is true, but it is being done at player's like myself's expense. Let me give a quick background of myself. I played back in Beta, got my initial chars up into the 90s when that meant something. I left for a time, because real life called. I developed my career, and now live confortably, and have the time to return. In early 2011, I returned, and started fresh on Valk, because of it's high player density and fresh market. I got my chars up, had a few hit 150, and because I have little interest in WoE, I decided the market would be where I played most of my time in game. I made billions on upgrading, whether just to 7's, or using HDs(Some bought with my real $$ through Kafra Shop, some with zeny) to go to 9 and 10. Valks, CeBs, VFs, HFs. I did it all, and made a vast fortune. I was able to have gears on par with high level participants in WoE, without the trouble of participating in it. I grew this fortune by using it to marketeer during events, such as Certs and OCAs. It grew even more, and I became a larger player in the marketplace because of my calculated risks.

I can honestly say I have earned this ease of play and distinction, with the help of nobody. Now, we are making it easier for others to attain this level with little to no effort, investment, or work put forth. This will come off as whining to some, but to the people who have done the same, this will ring true. Taking away the difficulty and risk associated with the game, will lower the enjoyment of the status attained when these new players finally do attain it. Soon after, with a devalued sense of accomplishment, they will lose interest in the game and move back to consoles, or on to the plethora of other MMOs out there. I'm sure Budd, Viceroy, Kiryu, Jeff, Candy and other marketeers are with me on this. Sadly, this protest will not be fruitful. And I understand the GMs have the herculean task of keeping everyone happy. I don't debase or under appreciate their efforts at all.

In the end, this won't make me quit or go rogue and become a troll on the boards. I will still make ridiculous gear, pull DR and GR cards out of OCAs, and sell them to people at fair prices. What it will do is make me a little less active and interested in the market, and when people like me stop spending their time and money, everyone will have to make and attain their own things. That, more than anything, will make the game more difficult for newer players. I won't be there to discount them an MP card, or sell them a +9 at a discounted price. They'll have to make it on their own, or pay full price to the few marketeers left who really want to take them for a ride. Thanks for everything you do, GMs. And thanks for everyone who took the time to read my opinion on the matter.
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#90 brothersfree

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 05:39 AM

already +10ed 3 items. its an OP event just saying.
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#91 asayuu

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 06:20 AM

Well, the old system was a gear/zeny sink.

The new one is a real cash sink. Is it really necessary?

Personally, I like the idea of having safe upgrades, in theory, so I could catch up with the other payers, I mean, players. BUT. Aren't you overdoing it, staff?

Also, if you liek numbers.

+7 to +9 on Enriched = 9%.

+7 to +9 on HDs <= 4%.

Edited by asayuu, 09 November 2011 - 06:23 AM.

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#92 Gangstaz

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 06:24 AM

Dirty, I'm closing up on you. I only always made +7s. +10s are my new goal now. I'll take over your workshop if you want :)

Only thing I don't touch are OCAs and MCAs.
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#93 Rutana

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 07:06 AM

You know... I would totally agree to the "gear has to break" arguments, if there wouldn't be so many Kafra Gears that have +9 effects...
just saying...
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#94 Pandapoop

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 07:22 AM

Hmmmm - not sure if this was asked..

If it is 4% to get from +7 to +9 with HD ores...

and it is 9% to get from +7 to +9 with enriched ores...

and enriched ores cost 210 KP for 10, and 200 KP for 20 HD ores...

It means enriched ores are double the cost, with double the effective rate more or less.


It technically means that it still costs exactly the same :-p but from a statistical point of view with a little less um standard deviation for those who know what that is.

Did I miss anything?
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#95 asayuu

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 07:35 AM

You know... I would totally agree to the "gear has to break" arguments, if there wouldn't be so many Kafra Gears that have +9 effects...
just saying...


And most of them are one-timers. Like: +9 it now, because you will never have the chance to get it again.

Example: Ancient Horns: A Lucky Box item which does nothing unless it is +7.

Edit @Panda:

I added a "<=" exactly because people is not sure if the HD rate is really equal as the normal ore rate. Lots of people says the rate is lower [which would explain why they can drop under safe leve.]. So actually I believe using enricheds is cheaper on the high end than HDs.

Edited by asayuu, 09 November 2011 - 07:38 AM.

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#96 Pandapoop

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 07:46 AM

I've done tons of upgrades and can pretty much say the rates are the same more or less - 40 40 20 20 10.

There was a mention that the rates are lower over-all and that is true, but the reason the actual rate is lower is because of the additional +3 break, which you can't use Enriched for anyways right? So it's still pretty much the same?

I haven't tried using it yet though - so i'm wondering, is it that you will never go to +3 with enriched? If this is the case then there is probably a 50% better chance just because of the no +3. :) Have you tried?
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#97 CeruleanGamer

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 07:59 AM

Compare:

90-60-60-30-30 with 60-40-40-20-20.... 30% better odds at +4-+5, 20% better odds at +5-+6 and +6-+7, and 10% better odds at +7-+8 and +8-+9... basically 1.5x better at every upgrade.

Yeah enriched are more expensive, but you'll have more shots at +10 more than ever because you're not gonna rebound back and forth a lot on the lower upgrades (rebounding at +4 and +5 over and over and burning 20 HDs right there is a frustrating sight)....
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#98 Pandapoop

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 08:02 AM

Ahhhh - perfect. I did not consider the +4 to +7. :)

Gonna try that lol.
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#99 Nitro

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 08:07 AM

These rare items you cherish have existed for years. Regular expansions would have made them obsolete long ago. Consider yourself lucky you can hoard 7 year old WoE God Items and still be beast in 2011, after a significant level cap increase.
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#100 Xellie

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 08:23 AM

Sorry but your the one that doesnt get it and are purely looking out for your own interests on this matter.


Shut up. I mean that in the politest possible way. I don't camp MVPs (anymore) and I don't intend to play the game to that degree. I have zeny now, and I can buy the things I want. Yes. When I run out of Zeny, how might I make it back? By MVPing with a few friends once or twice. But the most likely way will be that I will be having to raise zeny the same way as every other player. To buy these items.


RO is the most top heavy game I've played for wealth distribution. n00bs need to be able to realistically afford to buy Diab robes, boots and stuff in order to keep them happy. If you make everything break it makes the campers incredibly rich and wearing +7 while the rest of the server walks round in eden gears and one or two ok pieces. Oh and a noob in eden gear is much more likely to quit than a noob in a diab boots etc.


I'm sorry, but you are wrong. A noob with nothing to aim for or to work towards because everything is handed to them within a month is more likely to quit than one who actually plays to earn their gear. One who has put effort and meaning into their ingame achievements. People who don't value the time they have put into RO quit faster. Proven fact. Look at the number of veterans vs newer players.

Seriously if they make everything break again this is what happens.
Diab and Valk gears go x3 in price
Become unobtainable to the masses.
Wealth isnt distributed it goes to the people who camp those mvps.
That wealth isnt redistributed unless some noob drops a ultra rare ghostring card or something from another mvp.
The Valk/Diab farmers being the richest outbid and win said items as they have monopoly on the best gear source.


Boo hoo. Seriously. Those people have to be motivated to hunt those mvps to get those gears. And one day, you might aim to be the one camping those MVPs getting that zeny. It is a cycle and those people do change eventually. In the mean time bloody branches and kafra shop and supplies are all great ways to obtain those items / make zeny to buy from these people.

End of the day this makes 95% of the population LESS happy and more likely to quit and makes 5% of the population more happy.
The way it currently is keeps those 95% MORE happy and makes the 5% emo cry but they're hard core anyway so wouldnt quit so who cares.

I'm pretty sure people will compete at MVPs if they're worth the effort.

Net win for server player base.

The economy needs to be based on an influx of new players. If new players keep coming then the gears will always sell and sell at a price that they can afford. New players put alot of KP into the economy to help them start out thus a good turn over of zeny.


Umm.... I don't even know where to start. The fact that new players are far and few between and thats why we end up in this situation? The gears aren't broken or removed from the economy because the lack of players actually means that people obtain the high end gear rather fast.

But obviously new players wouldn't understand the idea that if gear breaks, then high + becomes more valuable and they can actually turn a profit off it and get zeny from lazy high end players much faster. It's all about only having one item and devaluing the whole market.


Gear not breaking is a problem, and hopefully after this event some clever updates will make them spendable in some fashion so the value goes up. Personally having everything in vend range is a good thing for hte game, its only counter balanced because there are some that have huge z funds that can literally throw money around keeping hte prices higher.


Ahhh... Heim gets what I'm saying. Gosh I love being able to back up what I'm saying by quoting someone employed in the field.

Hows this sound for a consumption fix?

HD ore + base gear = enriched upgrade attempt.

I.E. +8 valk mant + HD ore + valk mant(in inventory) = safe enriched attempt from +8 to +9.

You could toss in an enriched ore as well if you want, but if you made base item consumption part of the actual upgrade formula (if thats possible) that would solve the "1 gear for life" current approach. Can either take the old "bad" chance doing regular HD upgrades (things like KVM weapons i guess) or the new way that would consume some gears in the process.


LOVE IT!

This is a great idea Heim! Thank you very much. People must not remember when you had to buy 30 valk manteaus and armors, upgrade em all and end up with 7-10 of them at +7 if you were lucky. Then HD ore came along, we all loved the hell of it, and this is just getting even better. +10 to +14 is the new +7 to +10.


I remember and it wasn't that bad. I took 8mil zeny loan from a friend and bought some feathered berets.
I made one to +7 and sold it for 90mil. I repeated this a few times and made a lot of zeny pretty fast.

two months later the kafra shop came along.

But obviously new players wouldn't understand the idea that if gear breaks, then high + becomes more valuable and they can actually turn a profit off it and get zeny from lazy high end players much faster. It's all about only having one item and devaluing the whole market.

You know... I would totally agree to the "gear has to break" arguments, if there wouldn't be so many Kafra Gears that have +9 effects...
just saying...


There should be a seperate upgrader for kafra shop crap that allows the use of all this special non breaking witchcraft.
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