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An idea to make Locks actually wanted in parties


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#1 Mwrip

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 03:15 AM

The biggest issue with Locks is that once they lob a spell, they they're basically useless for several seconds. This is fine when monsters have 20k HP and they either kill outright or at least pull a strong hit. When monster HP skyrockets around 130 though, it makes them a total joke, as they barely dent the monsters, then everyone else kills. I know the balance patch is altering the single vs. global cool mechanics, but the extra casts they get from that will still take ~3 seconds each (compare to 0.5 or ASPD for most melee skills), and they're going to be the wrong element (melee can spam the same skill). This means that in both the damage and status effect department, absolutely everyone outclasses them, while also having more HP, more defense, etc.

In theory, Freeze & Release is supposed to allow rapid fire chaining, giving the needed spam to compete with a meleer. In practice, no one is going to wait for you to keep setting that mess up when they can just kill in 2 seconds without waiting.

What I would suggest is 2 quest skills.
Freezestore - Memos your active (Frozen but not yet Released) combo. Casting this requires 100% SP and burns the entire bar. You get 3 memos.
Recalled Chain 1, 2, and 3 - Fire off the combo in that memo slot, without Freezing it first. This would have a cast time, but not a huge one.

Recalled Chains would be disabled in WoE (it would be too powerful there), but freely usable in parties, giving the class the endgame party value that it currently majorly lacks.

Edited by Mwrip, 28 November 2011 - 03:17 AM.

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#2 Luckywhiterabbit

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 04:15 AM

Locks ARE wanted in parties...

Every time I've been to a turnin, the moment a warlock puts up a N> party sign, everyone clamors to get them, and then is like "OH COOL A WARLOCK."

What game are you playing?

Anyway, adding new skills to the classes at this point is not going to happen unless KRO decides a Renewal phase 2 is in order or something like that.

Edited by Luckywhiterabbit, 28 November 2011 - 04:17 AM.

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#3 GuardianTK

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 05:10 AM

Warlocks are fairly popular for pvm parties.


They aren't as popular for MVP/ET/WoE though.
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#4 Wizard

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 05:42 AM

What game are you playing?


I'm kinda wandering the same thing for quite a while now... :dunno:
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#5 Kadnya

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 05:48 AM

Locks and bishops situation changed quite a bit thanks to the weakly turn ins. Before, bishops had a hard time finding a party too since almost anyone can solo anything, but after turn ins started, it is easy to catch a TI party with both classes.
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#6 CeruleanGamer

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 06:51 AM

Warlocks are fairly popular for pvm parties.


They aren't as popular for MVP/ET/WoE though.


But Warlocks are awesome good at clearing mobs on the first 30 floors of ET (not counting mvp floors). xD
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#7 Aralyne

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 10:25 AM

Eh... I main a wanderer while a friend of mine maines a warlock. I personally think her lock is more useful than my wanderer in a party since all I usually do is SR and occasionally throw out a buff or gypsy kiss for people (might feel differently about that if I mained a maestro since they have better skills). But yeah, I would never say no to a warlock if they wanted to join my party. I like them, and even if they can't one spell annihilate and entire mob sometimes, they're still good as crowd control in my opinion.
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#8 TheSquishy

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 10:35 AM

Locks are great at mob control.
Their presence allows the beefier classes to worry more about tanking and mobbing than being primary DPS
and constantly running out of SP.
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#9 Charisma

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 04:30 PM

Warlocks are even fun in ET! Not as fast as other killers when it comes to MVPs, but I've had some fun 2-man runs with them.
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#10 Scuba

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 04:50 PM

I have an idea to make locks wanted in parties...

Magic Strings.
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#11 XIII_Eraser

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 06:24 PM

You definitively don't know what you are talking about if you want them buffed fine but at least talk in terms that make sense
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#12 Mwrip

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 03:35 PM

I'm only referring to very, very, late in the game, when the monster HP shoots up way into the 6 digits. This is not an issue elsewhere, where their large AoE mostly makes up for lower damage, and the cooldown isn't an issue because you need to find a new mob anyway.
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#13 Gigahertz2011

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 03:54 PM

I've been wanting to say this ever since I got to lock...I assumed melee classes wouldn't be as good at damage or AoE, but I was wrong, in many cases they're BETTER AT THEM. This doesn't make me want to play a more useful class, it just pisses me off. I will play Warlock no matter what, STOP telling me to play a different class because we're nerfed, I don't want to hear it.

Edited by Gigahertz2011, 29 November 2011 - 03:56 PM.

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#14 IronPlushy

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 05:57 PM

typically magic classes are suppose to be able to deal the most damage while at the same time being the most fragile, it's called balance
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#15 Luckywhiterabbit

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 06:27 PM

OR they do medeocre damage and have the largest CROWD CONTROL. There's more than one way to balance a magic class in a game, and not all of them have to be greatest DPS.

RO seems to be taking it to the route where melee classes do the most damage up close while magic classes are crowd control. The problem then is that we get skills like Dragon Breath which...yeah.
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#16 Gigahertz2011

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 09:08 PM

MMO developers are supposed to avoid making tankmages. Melee classes are not only tankmages now, they have shorter cast times, after cast delay and reuse times than us!

Edited by Gigahertz2011, 29 November 2011 - 09:19 PM.

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#17 Mwrip

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 04:55 PM

OR they do medeocre damage and have the largest CROWD CONTROL. There's more than one way to balance a magic class in a game, and not all of them have to be greatest DPS.

RO seems to be taking it to the route where melee classes do the most damage up close while magic classes are crowd control. The problem then is that we get skills like Dragon Breath which...yeah.


Frosty = Greatly slows down targets... if it sticks. Base chance is 80%, but that's with 0 MDEF and monsters being the same level as you (i.e. not stuff you level on). The actual chance is often below half. The balance patch is further nerfing the base rate down to 50% - good freaking luck getting this to stick on stuff you're fighting for exp.
Cursed Circle = Complete and total shutdown of 15 enemies. Cannot be resisted. Does not break. Free kills for your party.

If there are many ranged targets (where Cursed can't reach them all at once) or there's a *huge* mob (huge enough that it's better to slow 1/2-2/3 of the mob than shut down 15 monsters), Frosty *may* win. Anywhere else, Cursed Circle is very clearly the stronger crowd control, and with the 80->50 nerf, I think it's safe to say Cursed wins always.

Compare White Imprison to Manhole, and you'll notice something similar.
Manhole vs. WI:
Unblockable vs. 65% chance to work vs. equal level and 0 MDEF.
2 second cooldown vs. 4
3 points to max vs 5
Removed by a 5 SP spammable Priest skill vs requires ME (although neither matters in PvM)
Choose between aiming directly at an enemy or planting it in their path vs. must aim at a target
Requires a useless Rogue skill to unlock, but 0 SC prereq points vs. requires 3 Lock prereq points in a rarely used spell
Hard cap of 3 active targets vs. soft cap of 3 active targets (Strings increases this to 5, but that's if nothing ever resists it, and without Strings, you're unlock to even get the 3, while MH can guarentee that)
Does no damage vs. does trivial damage (2k at max)
Target cannot be harmed vs. some skills work, but they break the effect and thus merely give you a chance to break the effect early after repositioning.
Both can be used on self as a desperation defense move, but WI is self-only, while Manhole can be jumped into by allies if needed.

WI has a couple of advantages at the end of that list, but it's pretty clear which one is overall better.

Of course, WI and Manhole are largely moot in PvM since the idea of a dungeon built around small groups of powerful monsters instead of swarms is gone, but I wrote that second part on the assumption that future instances or something will restore that style of play.

If the goal was to make the Locks trade damage in favor of being the ultimate in crowd control, why are both of their signature CC moves inferior to melee class' equivalent moves... with one of them about to receive an additional nerf to make that gap even wider?
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#18 TheSquishy

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 06:59 PM

KRO messed up a lot of things with magic.
They went out their way to make a seeming fair and balanced magic system but
didn't do the same with melee attacks.

The problem isn't magic in itself, it's the lack of proper application of game mechanics to melee skills.

Many Melee skills lack the following:
-Proper defense reduction
-proper element application
-reasonable delay for the most powerful skills.

It's also very easy to increase melee damage with cards (but that is a long standing issue)

Many monsters however have unnecessarily high mdef and too low def and casters have been pushed out of many
dungeons that they should shine in.
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