202 replies to this topic

[Yurai]

Same with ninja toggling with knockdown and falcons, wolfs.
As for the twin skill, skill can only work on twin skill side, and you must wait a bit. If twin is hit, it automatically fixes bug, making them start over. Only one skill can be used at a time till hit. If they use infinite, just use long range atk at twin.
I propse that At ligt speed for twins to be taken out from tourney, to make it easier to force cancel bug from ppl with no pride

I've actually asked Aramis about ninja toggling specifically and he said that it's currently not classified as a bug. That's not to say whether or not it actually is a bug, but using it atm would not go under bug abuse, which is grounds for disqualification from the tournament.

Summoners are the least imbalanced class out of humans or dragonkins. Almost entirely all of their skills have cast times of about 1-1.5 secs and without mana burn, summoners are basicly the easiest to kill. In terms of pvp strengths, summoners would be on the bottom of the list. They absolutely have no instant cast moves, that already puts them underneath warlocks. Summoners have no combos or locks and they basicly have to run through the entire map and spaming skills in safe zones, as i said cast time for all their skills is 1-1.5 sec, and hope the opposing player runs into it, which is very unlikely. Summoners are already disadvantaged at pvp in general, how would they be imbalanced in dragon tournament?

The problem posed is that the summons have a lot of HP and can be used to block a lot of skills. I'm pretty sure Parry was limited since a high block rate does not promote good tournament play. The same mechanic of using summons with 200k HP against players with a very limited mana pool can be argued this way as well. Honestly, though, it's a relatively new class and without the amount of testing and experience we have with the human classes, there tends to be stuff that may or may not be imbalanced that can easily be overlooked at a glance.

[JoeyLe]

I've actually asked Aramis about ninja toggling specifically and he said that it's currently not classified as a bug. That's not to say whether or not it actually is a bug, but using it atm would not go under bug abuse, which is grounds for disqualification from the tournament.


The problem posed is that the summons have a lot of HP and can be used to block a lot of skills. I'm pretty sure Parry was limited since a high block rate does not promote good tournament play. The same mechanic of using summons with 200k HP against players with a very limited mana pool can be argued this way as well. Honestly, though, it's a relatively new class and without the amount of testing and experience we have with the human classes, there tends to be stuff that may or may not be imbalanced that can easily be overlooked at a glance.

As a lv 70+ summoner myself...ive had enough experience in pvp and team pvp to say that this class is far from being imbalanced. This class is weaker in terms of pvp to basicly every other class. Our summons die amazingly fast due to the fact that they recieve normal monster damage and our skills have ridiculous cast times, like how is a class going to pvp if all their skills is like 1-1.5 sec cast times? A summoner on a team would actually be a disadvantage to that team. The main reason why summoners were considered op was because of mana burn, but since its now restricted, summoners are now a joke. Doesnt make sense to ban a class from the tournament when they already are absolutely underpowered

Edited by JoeyLe, 06 December 2011 - 02:04 AM.

[wizard898]

I don't think the twin skill spam bug is grounds for barring the class, because as stated before, using bugs in a tourney will result in a disqualification.

[Yurai]

As a lv 70+ summoner myself...ive had enough experience in pvp and team pvp to say that this class is far from being imbalanced. This class is weaker in terms of pvp to basicly every other class. Our summons die amazingly fast due to the fact that they recieve normal monster damage and our skills have ridiculous cast times, like how is a class going to pvp if all their skills is like 1-1.5 sec cast times? A summoner on a team would actually be a disadvantage to that team. The main reason why summoners were considered op was because of mana burn, but since its now restricted, summoners are now a joke. Doesnt make sense to ban a class from the tournament when they already are absolutely underpowered

Your summons don't die amazingly fast in naked PvP, where everyone has barely any attack to begin with. The amount of HP they have to block attacks and projectiles for you could potentially be a problem. You're one person with some degree of experience with the class. While your observations may be valid, that doesn't change that there may be potential imbalances that might be overlooked at a glance. I am not saying that the summoner class is overpowered, balanced, or underpowered; rather I am saying that there is not enough testing and/or playing with the class yet to say any definitive statements about its current level of balance.

I don't think the twin skill spam bug is grounds for barring the class, because as stated before, using bugs in a tourney will result in a disqualification.

The problem lies within that the bug is still easily abusable and may or may not be easily noticed with all the action going on. Personally, I feel that it would be better to fix such bugs first. The problem is inherent in knowing exact cooldowns, skill animations, as well as keeping track of how much time has passed before the skill can be used again. With the numerous skill restrictions that GM's already have to look out for, it just seems like a hassle that really isn't worth dealing with at the moment.

Edited by Yurai, 06 December 2011 - 02:15 AM.

[JoeyLe]

Actually our summons die twice as fast in naked pvp as our summons would have lower hp since we don't receive health stats from armor. And since our summons receive normal monster damage, any attacks that hit it is basically amplified 3x...so in naked pvp our summons would get killed within seconds... Also since it team pvp, our summons would die 4 times as fast as there is 4 players on the other team...so summons shouldnt be a problem, they would actually be a waste considering how fast they would die...and for blocking, the summon can only block a small number of ranged skills. The summon cannot block against wolf rush,phoenix,or wyvern blade for example



The problem lies within that the bug is still easily abusable and may or may not be easily noticed with all the action going on. Personally, I feel that it would be better to fix such bugs first. The problem is inherent in knowing exact cooldowns, skill animations, as well as keeping track of how much time has passed before the skill can be used again. With the numerous skill restrictions that GM's already have to look out for, it just seems like a hassle that really isn't worth dealing with at the moment.
[/quote]

Edited by JoeyLe, 06 December 2011 - 02:37 AM.

[Yurai]

Actually our summons die twice as fast in naked pvp as our summons would have lower hp since we don't receive health stats from armor. And since our summons receive normal monster damage, any attacks that hit it is basically amplified 3x...so in naked pvp our summons would get killed within seconds... Also since it team pvp, our summons would die 4 times as fast as there is 4 players on the other team...so summons shouldnt be a problem, they would actually be a waste considering how fast they would die...and for blocking, the summon can only block a small number of ranged skills. The summon cannot block against wolf rush,phoenix,or wyvern blade for example

There are a lot of skills that summons can help you block against. Your summons would not die faster in naked PvP as the attack of every player is significantly lower. Players in full equipment have around 15-20 times more attack than a naked character, whereas a player only has around 3-4x more HP in full gear than naked. I think it'd be quite a feat to take down a 200k HP summon. When players only have 3-4k MP, that amount of HP is a lot more than you'd think.

[JoeyLe]

But the amount of damage is still considerably huge as normal monster damage against a summon could wipe it out in a few seconds. In naked pvp our summons would have the somewhat def as a miniboss in a mm, so the summon would still receive huge amounts of damage. As for the summons hp, since it's naked our hp would be lower, the summons hp would be alot lower too. Way lower than 200k as u said since that would be the hp of a summon of a hlth staked summoner. So the summon would still be killed fairly easily. And the summons can only block single hit skills like rocket punch and sword dance, others skills can easily go right through it

[Yurai]

But the amount of damage is still considerably huge as normal monster damage against a summon could wipe it out in a few seconds. In naked pvp our summons would have the somewhat def as a miniboss in a mm, so the summon would still receive huge amounts of damage. As for the summons hp, since it's naked our hp would be lower, the summons hp would be alot lower too. Way lower than 200k as u said since that would be the hp of a summon of a hlth staked summoner. So the summon would still be killed fairly easily. And the summons can only block single hit skills like rocket punch and sword dance, others skills can easily go right through it

Is blocking a 2 second stun not huge? That can easily be the difference between being alive or dead. Even if damage against summons is not reduced, the amount of HP they have is significant enough to make a difference. Once again, it's a fairly new class and I'm pretty sure no one has played it enough yet to know every single niche aspect to accurately determine whether or not they are balanced.

[Kazu731]

The summons die as relatively fast as they would in PvE. They don't die in a matter of one to two skills, but I would agree they die quickly. However, this should be the case so you play strategically. As it is, Mana Burn is pretty easy to get caught in and having your summon there as a distraction is basically its primary function, I would think. No one wants to fight an infinite HP monster on top of four other players, one of which can drain all your MP. Health stacking does not affect the summons to the degree you're speaking and Yurai is probably primarily bringing up Golgon who has quite a huge chunk of HP from the start. Regardless, your summons work best as a distraction-type crutch rather than your primary offense or defense.

The Fighter bug is difficult for a third party or even the receiver of the attacks to notice because it does not show up on their screens. It could be spotted by damage appearing out of thin air but that's so extraordinarily minute that, especially in team PvP where eight characters are hopping around, it's ridiculous to ask anyone to watch out for.

[JoeyLe]

As kazu said, summons are mainly a distraction. They are ai controlled anyway and are pretty dumb in pvp. With the fact of being fairly easy to kill, they're also very predictable as the summon give hints that it's going to attack. Summons will not single handedly cause a team to win as they're not all that powerful. Summons are the entire aspect of a summoner and banning summoners because summons are annoying wouldn't make sense. summons are basicly walking punching bags. They can easily be avoided and will rarely ever kill a player. U would need to stand still and do nothing for a minute straight for a summon to kill u

Edited by JoeyLe, 06 December 2011 - 07:51 AM.

[StormHaven]

GOLGON ROLL ATTACK.
stunned for and left open to get destroyed.

Anyway. Why not restrict certain summons for Summoners instead of banning the class. They have amazing offense skills that land fairly often in group pvp in you know where to position yourself.

[Maronu]

Is blocking a 2 second stun not huge? That can easily be the difference between being alive or dead. Even if damage against summons is not reduced, the amount of HP they have is significant enough to make a difference. Once again, it's a fairly new class and I'm pretty sure no one has played it enough yet to know every single niche aspect to accurately determine whether or not they are balanced.

You want to ban a class entirely because your worried something might get in the way of your RP?

As kazu said, summons are mainly a distraction. They are ai controlled anyway and are pretty dumb in pvp. With the fact of being fairly easy to kill, they're also very predictable as the summon give hints that it's going to attack. Summons will not single handedly cause a team to win as they're not all that powerful. Summons are the entire aspect of a summoner and banning summoners because summons are annoying wouldn't make sense. summons are basicly walking punching bags. They can easily be avoided and will rarely ever kill a player. U would need to stand still and do nothing for a minute straight for a summon to kill u

At this point, I think he's just racist against Dragonkins or scared of them.

[Rimmy]

Why don't we just organize a few naked matches with a summoner involved and see how it goes? I think if you're going to propose banning an entire class, you need to have an extremely good reason for it and some evidence to back up your reasoning -- it really doesn't seem fair to ban them based on assumptions about how it would work out.

[JoeyLe]

Every class deserves a fair chance at competeing at the tournament. Just because a class has something to get in the way of certain moves doesnt give reason to ban them. Theres a reason why Hastur put up a list on banned moves.... to make the tournament more fair. Seeing that Hastur has not made summons banned in tournament, its clear that summons arent as op as yurai has overly exagerated them to be. Id rather have Hasturs word on what moves are acceptable in pvp rather than yurai's. As he seems biased in making rules that seem to benefit him

[tainguyen]

Seeing the bug for twin itself is easily noticeable. Its either the twin dissapears or the twin is spamming skills. And as wizard said, using bugs will result to a ban. Thus using the twin bug is not safe. Also on the other side, its 4 v 4, if there is a restriction in At Light Speed, and weave or weaves, canceling the bug isn't hard as you're 4x likely to get hit (multiple swift, falcons, aoe skills in general).
Also, hitting a twin restricts 33% of skill tree depending on build, for most ppl its 50%. Twins have fusion to teleport twin, but its animation is slow, and its cooldown is 6 secs, and it also cancel out bug. Facing skills such as swift just makes twins a joke.
Also, just kill twin first then. They are very squishy (restrict at light speed and weave to avoid hit and run). Since it is 4 v 4 also, there will be gang locks, which will kill them in one go.

Also, I think restricting dragonkin classes is unfair for everyone that made those classes. I've met many that abandon their lvl 40s-50s, to just play as a shaman and twin. Also same goes with newcomers where they made a lvl 20 just to play as a shaman or twin.
I'm a bored guy and help newbies lvl up till 30-40s. My friend list is composed of about 7 twins, 2 shamans that are now 56-60. Id hate to cut them off as those characters is all they got. MAYBE you guys don't care because you guys HAVE multiple lvl 60s. I have multiple 60+ too, but we have to be fair to others.

This tournament should not be restricted to a majority of veteran players.

[zabmaru]

Every class deserves a fair chance at competeing at the tournament. Just because a class has something to get in the way of certain moves doesnt give reason to ban them. Theres a reason why Hastur put up a list on banned moves.... to make the tournament more fair. Seeing that Hastur has not made summons banned in tournament, its clear that summons arent as op as yurai has overly exagerated them to be. Id rather have Hasturs word on what moves are acceptable in pvp rather than yurai's. As he seems biased in making rules that seem to benefit him

We don't even know if Hastur has seen this yet and you're declaring victory.

[StormHaven]

in group naked pvp. I have a hard time getting to summoners and others cause the summons absorb so many attacks, but that's probably only me.

[Yurai]

You want to ban a class entirely because your worried something might get in the way of your RP?


At this point, I think he's just racist against Dragonkins or scared of them.

RP does hit multiple targets in a decent AoE, so no, that's not what I'm worried about. As I have stated before, the reason I'd like to put off Dragonkins from participating yet is that there hasn't been enough gameplay with them to determine their level of balance.

Every class deserves a fair chance at competeing at the tournament. Just because a class has something to get in the way of certain moves doesnt give reason to ban them. Theres a reason why Hastur put up a list on banned moves.... to make the tournament more fair. Seeing that Hastur has not made summons banned in tournament, its clear that summons arent as op as yurai has overly exagerated them to be. Id rather have Hasturs word on what moves are acceptable in pvp rather than yurai's. As he seems biased in making rules that seem to benefit him

At this point, you're just being biased towards me. How does banning shadow walk, dexterity buff, and stumblebum benefit me at all? Do you want me to stack dexterity buffs and end up with 80+ evade and have everything miss on me? Also, please do stop putting words in my mouth that I haven't said. I have not stated that summoners are OP, but rather that I'm neutral on the matter.

Seeing the bug for twin itself is easily noticeable. Its either the twin dissapears or the twin is spamming skills. And as wizard said, using bugs will result to a ban. Thus using the twin bug is not safe. Also on the other side, its 4 v 4, if there is a restriction in At Light Speed, and weave or weaves, canceling the bug isn't hard as you're 4x likely to get hit (multiple swift, falcons, aoe skills in general).
Also, hitting a twin restricts 33% of skill tree depending on build, for most ppl its 50%. Twins have fusion to teleport twin, but its animation is slow, and its cooldown is 6 secs, and it also cancel out bug. Facing skills such as swift just makes twins a joke.
Also, just kill twin first then. They are very squishy (restrict at light speed and weave to avoid hit and run). Since it is 4 v 4 also, there will be gang locks, which will kill them in one go.

Also, I think restricting dragonkin classes is unfair for everyone that made those classes. I've met many that abandon their lvl 40s-50s, to just play as a shaman and twin. Also same goes with newcomers where they made a lvl 20 just to play as a shaman or twin.
I'm a bored guy and help newbies lvl up till 30-40s. My friend list is composed of about 7 twins, 2 shamans that are now 56-60. Id hate to cut them off as those characters is all they got. MAYBE you guys don't care because you guys HAVE multiple lvl 60s. I have multiple 60+ too, but we have to be fair to others.

This tournament should not be restricted to a majority of veteran players.

Your statement seems to be contradiction Kazu's statement, which is that the bug is not easily noticeable, especially in the fray of a 4v4 group match. I'm all for including Dragonkin classes in future tournaments, but the fact remains that this one is in only 11 days with the signup ending even earlier. Due to this, there's not much of an opportunity to test things out regarding balance with the new classes.

[DarkWyvern]

Mana Burn i thought of here is the list i have so far. Let me know if you can think of others:


[Warriors]
Sword Dance, Parry, Revenge, Armor Break,Barricade, -_-roach Life, TimeReverse, ALL 4TH JOB SKILLS EXCEPT PASSIVES.
[Mages]
Slow Heal, Self Heal, Wide Heal, Instant Heal,HP Restore, Barrier, PerfectSeal, ALL 4TH JOB SKILLS EXCEPT PASSIVES.
[Thieves]
Hypnotizer, Mind Reading, ALL 4TH JOB SKILLSEXCEPT PASSIVES.
[Archers]
Hallucination, Silence Trap, ALL 4TH JOB SKILLSEXCEPT PASSIVE
[Summoner]
Mana Burn

Just for the sake of asking, but why exactly are Priests, who are basically modelled for for support/healing, be not allowed to heal? Wouldn't that basically mean that all they can do is buff and use EC? : | I understand for 1v1 since most of the time they can get away and heal, but if you're in a team, and you see a priest, then its common sense to target the priest, and you can even lock him/her to take him/her out in one shot. I don't know, just me being curious.

[tainguyen]

YES my statement contradicts kazu. I'm saying it is easily noticeable. Who said I have to go along with he says? Everyone is entitled to their opinions. As for you, you obviously HAVE NOT pvp twins enough to base your statements on twins.
JUST BECAUSE you know there's a glitch out there, you don't know how it works, and your just ASSUMING it is difficult to see in pvp based on kazu statement.
*please make sure you make comments on things you are sure about. Make multiple accounts to 60s and you'll be able to see things clearly when playing with other classes.

Edit: as for summons, they are just an obstacle. In comparison to pathfinder traps, they are close in similarites with making walking around harder.

Edited by tainguyen, 06 December 2011 - 02:03 PM.

[GrapefruitGod]

Priests can do much more than simply heal.

YES my statement contradicts kazu. I'm saying it is easily noticeable. Who said I have to go along with he says? Everyone is entitled to their opinions. As for you, you obviously HAVE NOT pvp twins enough to base your statements on twins.
JUST BECAUSE you know there's a glitch out there, you don't know how it works, and your just ASSUMING it is difficult to see in pvp based on kazu statement.
*please make sure you make comments on things you are sure about. Make multiple accounts to 60s and you'll be able to see things clearly when playing with other classes.

I've played against fighter quite a bit. It's incredibly hard to notice from a spectator's perspective. The only way I can tell it's even happened to me is when I lose a large portion of my hp in less than a second. There's no visual confirmation that the bug even took place.

Edited by GrapefruitGod, 06 December 2011 - 02:00 PM.

[zabmaru]

YES my statement contradicts kazu. I'm saying it is easily noticeable. Who said I have to go along with he says? Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

Grab some Midol and stop being so defensive. It's just known around here that Kazu knows what he's talking about when it comes to Fighters, since he's been playing one in-depth even before we got them. That's why Yurai brought up the fact that what you said contradicted him.
Also, from what I've seen, it's really damn hard to notice the bug. I would just ban Dragonkin classes to be safe.

You must be new.

Edited by zabmaru, 06 December 2011 - 02:14 PM.

[Yurai]

YES my statement contradicts kazu. I'm saying it is easily noticeable. Who said I have to go along with he says? Everyone is entitled to their opinions. As for you, you obviously HAVE NOT pvp twins enough to base your statements on twins.
JUST BECAUSE you know there's a glitch out there, you don't know how it works, and your just ASSUMING it is difficult to see in pvp based on kazu statement.
*please make sure you make comments on things you are sure about. Make multiple accounts to 60s and you'll be able to see things clearly when playing with other classes.

Edit: as for summons, they are just an obstacle. In comparison to pathfinder traps, they are close in similarites with making walking around harder.

I have PvP'ed them enough to say that it is quite difficult to notice. I do have multiple accounts to 60 so I'm not sure what you're trying to argue there. I understand your desire to make it fair and allow the new classes to participate, but the few extra participants do not outweigh the slew of bugs and issues that they could bring along.

[tainguyen]

Priests can do much more than simply heal.



I've played against fighter quite a bit. It's incredibly hard to notice from a spectator's perspective. The only way I can tell it's even happened to me is when I lose a large portion of my hp in less than a second. There's no visual confirmation that the bug even took place.

Ok, imho, the bug doesn't even matter in pvp. Most of the time twins hit and run. At lowest cooldown, its 6 secs, with passive its 4.5 secs. Spamming the skills itself is nothing compared to 2 sec dagger. Comboing infinite with infinite does not work as they can get away, spaming grable with grable does not keep anyone in a lock due to its ark motions and inconsistant number of hits. Spamming spirit spear is worthless as it does little damg. Spaming stamper is pointless as it is point blank and at high risk of getting hit. Spamming rising drop kick is worthless due to the fact you need to position everything right in order to get more than 2 hits. Spamming any other skills is pointless in twin skills (green) for slow animation, and lack of effects and damg.
*when hitting and running, 4.5 sec is not hard to achieve. Using bug may save you .3- 1 Sec, but it is fine as as it can only be done to one skill. If they choose to spam, they will not get far as twin has high probability to get hit due to straight line skills, twin goes down a far distance, has low aoe vertically, and most of the time, results to an exchange, which cancel bug anyways.
The only thing I'm assuming you guys blindly fear is their damg. Their damg is ridiculously high. In combination with bug, you guys just want twins out.

[Yurai]

Ok, imho, the bug doesn't even matter in pvp. Most of the time twins hit and run. At lowest cooldown, its 6 secs, with passive its 4.5 secs. Spamming the skills itself is nothing compared to 2 sec dagger. Comboing infinite with infinite does not work as they can get away, spaming grable with grable does not keep anyone in a lock due to its ark motions and inconsistant number of hits. Spamming spirit spear is worthless as it does little damg. Spaming stamper is pointless as it is point blank and at high risk of getting hit. Spamming rising drop kick is worthless due to the fact you need to position everything right in order to get more than 2 hits. Spamming any other skills is pointless in twin skills (green) for slow animation, and lack of effects and damg.
*when hitting and running, 4.5 sec is not hard to achieve. Using bug may save you .3- 1 Sec, but it is fine as as it can only be done to one skill. If they choose to spam, they will not get far as twin has high probability to get hit due to straight line skills, twin goes down a far distance, has low aoe vertically, and most of the time, results to an exchange, which cancel bug anyways.
The only thing I'm assuming you guys blindly fear is their damg. Their damg is ridiculously high. In combination with bug, you guys just want twins out.

What you're describing seems to be a situation in a 1v1. You have to consider that the twin has other teammates that can lock for them while they pull off their movies with no cooldown, as well as teammates that can protect the twin while he's pulling off his moves. With their high damage and someone to keep the opponent in place, the bug is easily exploitable to do a large amount of burst damage that it provides before holding back as to not seem too suspicious.