290 replies to this topic

[wyverlord]

Kind of wish I would've recorded all the pvps I did with Rion.

you wish, or do you "kind of wish"?

[Miname]

Nah, that has nothing to do with it. It's useful for another reason, but honestly I think Endu is the only WM I've seen use it that way.

I mix it in after a freeze sometimes, how does he use it?

[Rimmy]

Out of respect for Endu, I'd rather not go spilling all his secrets. There are nights where we make a PvP room and just spend an hour or two testing different skills or effects on each other to figure out unusual ways to take advantage of them. (Freudian slip? Hohoho.)

All I'll say is this: Try it yourself. Go into a PvP room with a friend and try the skill out on them a few times. Notice everything it does -- not just the obvious things, like inflicting a status effect. Then start thinking about how you can put the properties of the skill to use, think about which classes it would be effective against, etc.

This is exactly what I was talking about in that other thread yesterday. I think sometimes people don't realize that there are skill mechanics that really have nothing to do with damage or status effects. If you learn to think outside of the box, you'd be surprised how useful a skill can be when it would otherwise seem completely useless (although admittedly, there are some skills that are truly useless, or at least no one has proven otherwise yet in my book). Sure, gear can play a big role in PvP, but there are other factors you can turn to your advantage to make yourself a more formidable opponent without ever spending a single insurance scroll, enchant dust, or soul.

[Jumpluffspore]

A lot of "useless" skills can be applied well if you think it through properly. Gigadrill can be a nice mind screw on pathfinders that don't know what they're doing/haven't seen it used like this before Which means that you're good around 80% of the time. There's a lot of skills that seem useless on first glance, but if you're willing to dig a little deeper, you'll uncover a unique fighting style.

[GrapefruitGod]

And that was the reason I made my book/acid topic

[zabmaru]

PvP noob anecdote, don't read if you don't want to facepalm at the lack of skill/knowledge:

Spoiler

I definitely agree with using skills in different ways. A certain dragoon loved Aerial Smackdown too much and it was giving me trouble, so I just timed wrestler so he dived into it to scare him into not doing that anymore. I won the round.

[Miname]

Out of respect for Endu, I'd rather not go spilling all his secrets. There are nights where we make a PvP room and just spend an hour or two testing different skills or effects on each other to figure out unusual ways to take advantage of them. (Freudian slip? Hohoho.)

All I'll say is this: Try it yourself. Go into a PvP room with a friend and try the skill out on them a few times. Notice everything it does -- not just the obvious things, like inflicting a status effect. Then start thinking about how you can put the properties of the skill to use, think about which classes it would be effective against, etc.

This is exactly what I was talking about in that other thread yesterday. I think sometimes people don't realize that there are skill mechanics that really have nothing to do with damage or status effects. If you learn to think outside of the box, you'd be surprised how useful a skill can be when it would otherwise seem completely useless (although admittedly, there are some skills that are truly useless, or at least no one has proven otherwise yet in my book). Sure, gear can play a big role in PvP, but there are other factors you can turn to your advantage to make yourself a more formidable opponent without ever spending a single insurance scroll, enchant dust, or soul.

I've mostly got it figured out now, thanks for the pointers.

[DarkstalkerX]

Focus, people. I'm not even basing on whether it's well earned or not... let me try to put it the simplest way possible: Just the chance that during the cooldown on every debuff status effect (I took freeze for best example, but every single debuff and only debuffs, should apply to this concept,) there is even a chance and no matter how small, to reapply the status WHILE the status is currently taking place is enough to put it into consideration, and again, if dodge/block formulas get reworked and reduced under certain states, it's not going to get any better with how things are right now.

Funny how everyone jumped right over the damn point. Hell, half my post count is me repeating my arguments so people can understand them and most of it is inside this exact thread. I feel retarded enough at this point, so I'm just going to requote myself above .

To confirm: Yes, Myrm's been pretty much the highlight of the recent pages, because there's hardly any good ideas left for the few people that care about this thread to comment on than mentioning how classes could have skills made useful, and at least this one has taken it more in depth than "Warrior discussion" which is more to think about none than people complaining about dragoons for 16 pages.

Thank god not all the passives/random skills are useful. That'd be a nightmare. So what do they do to stop having barren skill trees? They spam it with useless skills.
EDIT because people complaining about lack of skills is irritating: There's a limited amount of hotkeys anyways, myrm really doesn't need any more combos than it has already. By the way, don't compare raw numbers of skills unless you're going to determine the useful/non-taboo ones that each class has and their combo-ing capabilities. Serious this thread has gone from game balance to pleas for myrm buff and it's rather irritating. We have a section for that. If you don't want weapon attack speed buffs, don't get 'em. It's that simple. Skill build not skill template. Skills are OPTIONAL. Now if you were talking about equipment set bonuses, that's different.

No, it doesn't make it better to have everyone have skills that become useless at any point in the game, the whole damn point of diversity is having enough for you to choose something less cookie cutter than everyone else.

Edited by DarkstalkerX, 07 January 2012 - 06:54 AM.

[zabmaru]

No, it doesn't make it better to have everyone have skills that become useless at any point in the game, the whole damn point of diversity is having enough for you to choose something less cookie cutter than everyone else.

I personally think (after taking a real look at our skills and capabilities) Myrm is fine, mostly. It's game mechanics that need to be changed. Stumble's aim debuff is silly, Myrms don't need spin it bear, but spin it bear definitely should be nerfed, block is dumb, etc. In my opinion, after getting destroyed by Nilla with a Myrm near my level and him playing it like a completely different class, there is plenty of diversity to be had with gear and creativity.

Edited by zabmaru, 06 January 2012 - 07:07 PM.

[Yurai]

The difference is that myrms are a relatively well-balanced class whereas paladins are not. Paladins need much removed from them to make them anywhere near balanced.

[OFireO]

The difference is that myrms are a relatively well-balanced class whereas paladins are not. Paladins need much removed from them to make them anywhere near balanced.

Yeah, right now I just hope if our 4th job skills and some skills damage calculation can be fixed(same for other classes). And Instead of being such a simple class, if we can get a few skills fixed to be more useful and lessen the buff don't you think it would be better balanced? I just had a feeling that the buff would be too much after but still don't know yet so I guess you can still say nothing need to be changed right now. I posted those useless active skills or passive skills because I just want to let them know that if they can change it overlords could be a class with more offensive options than just buffing and using the same old skills to kill. That way overlords can be more fun maybe?

[StormHaven]

To end myrm discussion If you think myrm's aren't offensive enough/good in team fights then you've never been on the receiving end of Miya.

[DarkstalkerX]

Yeah cause clearly, lagging your opponent by having extreme movespeed is the way to win any match fairly.

Anyway, wasn't this summit finished like half a month ago? we haven't gotten any notice about it being submitted to the ones in charge out there, I expected the topic to be closed after so, no?

Edited by DarkstalkerX, 06 January 2012 - 10:17 PM.

[StormHaven]

Yeah cause clearly, lagging your opponent by having extreme movespeed is the way to win any match fairly.

Anyway, wasn't this summit finished like half a month ago? we haven't gotten any notice about it being submitted to the ones in charge out there, I expected the topic to be closed after so, no?

Myrm comes up with a unique play style that's successful and wins most the time
"wow that myrm is cheating not using a traditional play style" is what you just said,

[Coolsam]

To end myrm discussion If you think myrm's aren't offensive enough/good in team fights then you've never been on the receiving end of Miya.

Have yet to face her in a 1on1 again. Only 1 time back when I was understacked. But I am definitely agreeing with you because she is one of the top myrm's in this server. In a team battle; Myrms can be devastating and if played right can work with all classes evenly. (Ever seen God of Fury 5/5 given to a ninja in team pvp?)

Yeah cause clearly, lagging your opponent by having extreme movespeed is the way to win any match fairly.

Anyway, wasn't this summit finished like half a month ago? we haven't gotten any notice about it being submitted to the ones in charge out there, I expected the topic to be closed after so, no?

Myrmidons are a big victim of lag walking victims as well. 8/11 of my opponents will lag walk or lag out of attacks in some way. High move-spd myrm's are actually a good idea for team pvp and 1v1 pvp. Not because of lag but because move-spd is something that can give a skilled player the upper hand.

Myrm comes up with a unique play style that's successful and wins most the time
"wow that myrm is cheating not using a traditional play style" is what you just said,

Myrmidon style comes from some things I believe are true. But it may share some roles with other classes with these:
1.) No new skills: It's a class that never seems to change. Other classes play styles have change as well with addition of new skills. The exceptions are myrm's and WM's who have only changed slightly over the course of the major patches. (Edits to existing skills. With the exception of Fire symbol's ice shot)
2.) Glass cannon style of battle: No block, no damage dropping, no evade (Some exceptions but end-game it's never enough w/o max stumble), it's kill or get killed. It's challenging to go at an opponent using only skill and not relying on block or evasion to save your skin. Stumblebum may lower aim but to all but a few Myrmidons it never is a lifesaver endgame. Most opponents will always have the necessary aim. Specialists/Destroyers share this style with Myrm's/Overlords to an extent.

Edited by Coolsam, 06 January 2012 - 10:59 PM.

[StormHaven]

By style I meant equipment/ skill usage/playstyle. There are a lot of things that are unique to the way miya plays and how she uses skills which make her devastating.

Edited by StormHaven, 06 January 2012 - 11:01 PM.

[OFireO]

To end myrm discussion If you think myrm's aren't offensive enough/good in team fights then you've never been on the receiving end of Miya.

I said before on other posts it was about Myrmidon's mobility weakness but I agree we are fine in team fights and offensive enough, the post before your post I posted was about how they could maybe nerf some of our buffs if it becomes too op after and give us more options it will make the class more fun but won't be op. Not like saying oh overlords suck ass and only with weaknesses and not enough skills. I am saying that compare to other classes we have lesser skills and It would be great if some skills can be fixed and nerf buff to balance it. But yes Myrmidons are pretty good in either 1v1 or team pvp.

[OFireO]

Yeah cause clearly, lagging your opponent by having extreme movespeed is the way to win any match fairly.

Anyway, wasn't this summit finished like half a month ago? we haven't gotten any notice about it being submitted to the ones in charge out there, I expected the topic to be closed after so, no?

XDD We can stack movement speed as well but we lose other stats it's just choices. Extreme movement speed does make it harder to get a clean catch but about the lagging part it's something everyone have problems with so it's not like if you have extreme speed you win for sure. With practices you can predict where they land if they jump or where they will walk to, usually when you do it right you should be able to get clean catches so it's not that big of a problem. If you envy someone else being so fast then you should plan to get a speed build too so you can catch up xd. It's not really cheating it is only natural that you will have problems catching people who are faster than you. The lagging part is all the same, players who dash a lot you will see a lot lag walks too but as long as you do it right you will be able to catch them without lag walk appearing so it's fine.

By style I meant equipment/ skill usage/playstyle. There are a lot of things that are unique to the way miya plays and how she uses skills which make her devastating.

Yes, I have pvped Miya many times and it's quite fun xd. I don't know how she pvps if without movement speed but I know she's pretty good with the build shes using now.

Myrm comes up with a unique play style that's successful and wins most the time
"wow that myrm is cheating not using a traditional play style" is what you just said,

XDD this is funny storm haha. =P For me I think I will not go full speed but stack to a degree and then focus on other stats.

Edited by OFireO, 07 January 2012 - 05:03 AM.

[DarkstalkerX]

Myrm comes up with a unique play style that's successful and wins most the time
"wow that myrm is cheating not using a traditional play style" is what you just said.

I didn't know the new topic theme was to suck up on miya. Nothing personal, but here's overrated for you to think about how I see it.

I'm sorry though, I wasn't aware no one seems to feel it's wrong that one of the best tactics in the game is to be fast enough that the game can't keep up and the enemy becomes pretty much helpless if they're running on anything worse than the best internet their parents can pay for

You're too optimistic, friend. Being a mod isn't a right to never being wrong, it's a job.

[GrapefruitGod]

Miya is the best myrm, but it's not because she has high movespeed.
And tbh, she and Rim are the only players I feel threatened enough by to avoid if I have to.

[Kazu731]

I don't feel skilled enough to try out unconventional things so I think you should all stop sucking up to Miya.

Sounds like someone is bitter!

Edited by Kazu731, 07 January 2012 - 09:01 AM.

[MuffinMann]

I didn't know the new topic theme was to suck up on miya. Nothing personal, but here's overrated for you to think about how I see it.

I'm sorry though, I wasn't aware no one seems to feel it's wrong that one of the best tactics in the game is to be fast enough that the game can't keep up and the enemy becomes pretty much helpless if they're running on anything worse than the best internet their parents can pay for

You're too optimistic, friend. Being a mod isn't a right to never being wrong, it's a job.

By stacking high movement speed, you're trading useful stats that can be obtained with other items. There are people who stacks movement speed and still lose a match without putting up a good fight. Miya's movement speed build made her less tanky than other myrms out there, but she can use it to her advantage. Suck up? Maybe you're just jelly that other people praise Miya for being the best myrm.

[Rimmy]

Anyway, wasn't this summit finished like half a month ago? we haven't gotten any notice about it being submitted to the ones in charge out there, I expected the topic to be closed after so, no?

Why close the topic just b/c some of the info was already submitted to the developers? The discussion here has been fruitful, and if, down the road, people read this and it sparks an idea for them they want to share with the group, great.

Having said that, let's keep this on topic and avoid turning it into a "so-and-so is the best such-and-such" thread.

[Jumpluffspore]

I didn't know the new topic theme was to suck up on miya. Nothing personal, but here's overrated for you to think about how I see it.

I'm sorry though, I wasn't aware no one seems to feel it's wrong that one of the best tactics in the game is to be fast enough that the game can't keep up and the enemy becomes pretty much helpless if they're running on anything worse than the best internet their parents can pay for

You're too optimistic, friend. Being a mod isn't a right to never being wrong, it's a job.

Clearly he's right. This thread is clearly about myrm discussion only. You sound so bitter right now and I'm almost certain you're one of those bad myrms now. "isn't a right to never being wrong, it's a job" what I don't even. Bitter tears elsewhere please. Cookie cutter skill builds is just how the myrm class tends to run. If you don't like it, go make a trash build and we'll call it a day. Back on topic. Imo, none of this myrm discussion should have happened. At the moment, the only classes I feel are unbalanced in 1v1 are priest (it's just complicated to play this well, only seen one good one without heal spam), dragoon (Again, they need to be limited to defense or offense), and Summoner (Still no ideas how to really fix this. Perhaps an active buff that's a short duration and halves cast times) Also, if her speed is lagging you, something is seriously messed up because it doesn't lag me and I'm on 3g mobile net.

Edited by Jumpluffspore, 07 January 2012 - 09:23 AM.

[Kazu731]

Clearly he's right. This thread is clearly about myrm discussion only. You sound so bitter right now and I'm almost certain you're one of those bad myrms now. "isn't a right to never being wrong, it's a job" what I don't even. Bitter tears elsewhere please. Cookie cutter skill builds is just how the myrm class tends to run. If you don't like it, go make a trash build and we'll call it a day. Back on topic. Imo, none of this myrm discussion should have happened. At the moment, the only classes I feel are unbalanced in 1v1 are priest (it's just complicated to play this well, only seen one good one without heal spam), dragoon (Again, they need to be limited to defense or offense), and Summoner (Still no ideas how to really fix this. Perhaps an active buff that's a short duration and halves cast times) Also, if her speed is lagging you, something is seriously messed up because it doesn't lag me and I'm on 3g mobile net.

I don't know if I necessarily agree that Cast Times are the issue of concern revolving around Summoners. They are indeed very long, but even in a situation where Mana Burn would receive an appropriate, nerf, I don't know if cast times being lessened would be something the class needs. I see a lot of Summoners bemoan their cast times, but then I see people like Rim who describe what a capable Summoner can actually do, and I don't think that cast times are really relevant by that point.

As it is--and I'm going to quote Endbringer here on a lot of comparions--a Summoner is capable of adding a pretty big chunk of absolute magic attack and HP with a passive, capable of inflicting burn not too far off the mark from a Specialist's N2, a Dashblock debuff, catch enemies with a movement speed debuff with Shackle, catch enemies with Spell Trap, create a wall stunlock with Rolling Stone, and distract with large HP Golgon.

I am not listing these things in a "LOOK HOW OVERPOWERED SUMMONER IS!!" manner, I'm saying that these effects are a pretty great arsenal for the class and I think that the cast times play a role in performing these strategically as a support class. I feel like a lot of Summoners who are upset at cast times are the ones trying to play it as--to quote Rim--a "one man army." I'm actually paraphrasing things I've heard many people say so I can't say I'm being very original, but I believe it bears repeating.