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PvM issues in a nutshell


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#1 Mwrip

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 03:37 PM

Since both Heim and Oda have been asking for specific problems and suggestions, here's IMO, the big ones with party play. I'm not listing problems that apply to only one class (like being forced to return to town when dying in Madogear on floor 12 of TT), as those should probably be separate threads, and I don't claim to know all classes well.

-There is a lack of challenging enemies. Nothing really requires a party besides Bio (which gives so little exp for its difficulty that you run it only if absolutely desperate for meaningful party play).
To fix: Either make certain maps both much harder and much higher xp, or make additional "elite" clones of dungeons (like Overlook did for 30-70ish). The second could also be a good way to make questing a larger part of the game if you do stuff besides KC quests in there.

-If you attempt to target monsters way over your level to try to force a party challenge, you get doubly penalized by the xp rules, ensuring this is an exercise in futility.
To fix: Remove all penalties for fighting beyond your level. Penalties for fighting *under* you makes sense, but not over. Additionally, instead of making the +40% only apply if a monster is exactly 10 over you, make it 10+.

-Instacast was a broken mechanic, so they added fixed cast times to fix it. This is good. However, they then gave melee AoEs more power than spells... with instacast... and much shorter cooldowns. As a result, magic damage is basically obsolete.
To fix: Casters either need a LARGE increase in power (change the MATK formula or add very powerful caster gear that isn't MVP cards) so their spells pack a punch that justifies their slow launch rate, or melee AoEs need to be toned down. Alternatively, make SP matter again, as that used to be the balancing factor on melee damage (Nyd and Rideword destroyed this).
Note: If raising caster damage in PvM play overpowers them in WoE, simply turn up the damage reduction vs. magic in WoE, keeping them balanced in both.

-Kaahi > the entire AB class. With monsters hitting for so little damage, kaahi is basically invulnerability as long as you have the SP to support it... which everyone does with Nyd and Rideword. This further discourages party play.
To fix: Lower Kaahi's duration way down (so it's not worth using via multiclienting), apply the Sac rules to being able to cast it on a target (so it's for actual parties), or just nerf SP leech so it's costly to use.

-With the new stat system, everyone has massively more HP and potion healing power (100 vit is standard to well... everyone... in both PvM and PvP), and monsters hit less hard. Combine with Kaahi, and there's a lot of lonely ABs out there.
To fix: Make vit also improve the power of received heals.

-Monster exp is based almost entirely on level and nothing else - variance is 20% at most. This makes the entire game about swarm killing, since single targets, no matter how strong, won't move the xp bar at all. This greatly harms classes built to kill single targets.
To fix: There needs to be maps built around fighting single targets or very small groups which are much harder than normal enemies, with exp to match.

-The scale of trying to fight as close to 10 over you as possible virtually guarantees that anyone you try to party with wants different targets than you do, and so everyone's taking yet another penalty for choosing to party. This even further discourages partying outside of TI events.
To Fix: Make the +40% be 10+ over you, not exactly 10.

-Monster exp doesn't scale correctly in the upper levels. You're much better off fighting swarms of things beneath you than stuff like bio enemies.
To Fix: x2 was not enough on Bio enemies. They used to give 100k exp *each* for a reason. It doesn't need to go that high with how fast 3rd jobs kill, but they should probably be worth 30-50k. Bio also shouldn't be the only hard dungeon in the game.

-No one want to run quests together unless bored, because quest xp has been utterly destroyed.
To Fix: Quest exp needs an ENORMOUS increase from the current pathetic amounts it gives.

-MVPing with magic is almost impossible due to a point of MDEF having almost QUINTUPLE the power of a point of PDEF, in a game where there are many ways to pierce PDEF, and almost none to pierce MDEF.
To Fix: Either change the MDEF formula, or do some heavy modifying of monster MDEF.
Note: As with MATK changes, if this makes mages too powerful in WoE, balance them by turning up the WoE magic damage reduction.

I think I got all the major ones. Please post whatever else I'm missing, as well as other fix suggestions, etc.

Edited by Mwrip, 16 December 2011 - 03:45 PM.

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#2 Ralis

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 03:54 PM

I've already gone through all the quests and changed the EXP rewards in a post to the GMs, we'll see if they do get updated. Oda agreed that they did need changing, so here's hoping.
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#3 Gigahertz2011

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 04:01 PM

This ...furry creature knows what it's talking about. I'm behind this 100%!

Edited by Gigahertz2011, 16 December 2011 - 04:02 PM.

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#4 Mayhem

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 04:09 PM

I came back to Ro around 4-6 months ago. I was amazed when everyone game me the same answer to this next question.

Where do I level?
"Oh you do turn ins!!!"
After I discovered that it take an hour tops to finish the quests I asked
"Well now where do I go to level and do you want to make a party?"
No do it on another character or wait till tommorow.
.......

This is basically how everyone feels about it. After you hit a certain level (70) you wait for turn ins.
I quickly discovered it was just like any old time iro in a way. Everyone figures out the best place to level and get the most exp per hour.


I only foresee this being solved two ways reallys.
1. We just put in a bunch of turn ins. That way people will party more. Just because there are turns to be done.
2. Take out turn ins so that people will have to start partying again.

Reguardless of any of this. Ragnarok is extremely lacking end game content. We need more and More things for higher levels to do and focus on them.
We keep focusing on getting people to 150 that we arent giving the people who have made 150 (most repeatedly) anything to do but make another character or woe.
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#5 sayoko

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 07:55 PM

piff......... just look what they did to sorcerer...... less hp and slower cast times, magic its not for kill anymore for those pathetics kro developers

just take a look........... they exist more than 1 way to ignore defense in-game

how many ways are to ignore mdef in game? ONLY 1 AND ITS A MVP CARD(wich dontt even work against players)

the only card that gives more magical damage against mvps.... yes its a mvp card to >____________________>

while physical class can stack abysmal knight cards and the new hat that can deals 22% more physical damage against mvps

while the mvp card let the magic deal more magical damage......... only gives 15% WTH????????????????????

heimdad and oda care? :glomp:
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#6 Inubashiri

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 08:35 PM

Mef your avatar is a perfect image of you when you post in caps Posted Image
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#7 sayoko

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 08:38 PM

Mef your avatar is a perfect image of you when you post in caps Posted Image

thats the point!!! :glomp:
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#8 Mwrip

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 12:18 AM

I've already gone through all the quests and changed the EXP rewards in a post to the GMs, we'll see if they do get updated. Oda agreed that they did need changing, so here's hoping.


I think iRO staff does actually have the controls to that, so there's probably hope.
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