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#101 Aeroku

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 10:02 PM

being supportive doesn't mean it should be able to disable a group of a guild with 1 person. same goes for other type of class.
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#102 Akin

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 10:15 AM

I agree with Aeroku. DSL and Arrulio were probably over-nerfed, but they definitely needed some work. More than anything though, I think those skills should be available in PvM.

Status effects is a topic that needs serious discussion though. Too bad no one will take notice.

Edited by Akin, 25 January 2012 - 06:20 AM.

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#103 asayuu

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 05:28 AM

Yeah... Status effects are something VERY hard to discuss.

All players want a way to get immunity, and the inflicting side wants it to work.

But the status can't be broken as is. That was the first problem of deep sleep. It was quickly healable with a simple touch of Swing Dance or Windmill Rush, but the only way to reduce duration was with base level and INT combined. My wanderer with 110 total int and lv150 never slept more than 8 seconds. But I saw other characters of mine sleeping for 50+ seconds.

The balance turned it to a "post-renewal stun". It is a pretty good idea, except of the bugs. Lasting no more than 10 seconds in a prepared target [except the fact it is bugged]. In other side, pre-renewal status, mainly stun. They are worthless in battles lv150xlv150, unless one of the sides is a ranger [HELL EVEN GXS ARE IMMUNE TO STUN].
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#104 Aeroku

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 07:32 AM

i'd probably say that the whole status thing needs to be reworked. people get immunity so easily now due to lots of stat points being available. like make stun immunity works for someone with 130-140 total vit instead of 100 (numbers are just example, but you get the idea). some people will still gain it easily anyway due to natural classes needing that certain stats to become useful. this way wanderer will actually become useful again.

of course, this goes for other status. silence at total 130-140 instead of 100, curse at 130-140, etc. make people pay the stat points to get what they want, not let them have it by coincident of having 100 vit (as everyone has that). back in pre-re, some class have trouble getting 100 vit due to lack of stat points on certain char, or they have to sacrifice their other ability to get it (as we old players know, "woe build")

meh, this kind of suggestion won't be heard of anyway.

Edited by Aeroku, 25 January 2012 - 07:36 AM.

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#105 Samias

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 10:22 PM

This is from my friend who plays as a summoner sorcerer...

Call Agni/Ventus/Terra/Aqua cast times are good right now, but the cost is brutal. 3, 6 or 10 elemental stones for 10, 15 and 20 minutes is pretty prohibitively high, especially considering that Endows only use one ever and at minimum are 20 minutes. I'd love to see it get cut down to 1, 3, and 5 elemental stones per level, or perhaps 1, 2 and 3 per level.

The current system for controlling them is hideous as well. Homunculi don't need nearly as many skills although to be fair, Alchemists are only alloted one Homunculus at a time. Something more like the Homunculus AI or controlling it like that would be greatly appreciated, as right now there's essentially no way to control it without heavy investments in points.

Not being able to tell what state your elemental is in either is rather irritating. There's also no status screen whatsoever, yet alchemists get one for their homunculus, and everyone gets one for mercenaries.


I agree that the cost of summons needs to be reduced. The weight factor is absurd, not even accounting for the cost. I'm not so sure they need an AI like mercenaries or homunculi, but there should still be a state indicator, as the summons have a bad habit of leaving a state you put them in.
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#106 iiNote

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 04:39 AM

i'd probably say that the whole status thing needs to be reworked. people get immunity so easily now due to lots of stat points being available. like make stun immunity works for someone with 130-140 total vit instead of 100 (numbers are just example, but you get the idea). some people will still gain it easily anyway due to natural classes needing that certain stats to become useful. this way wanderer will actually become useful again.

of course, this goes for other status. silence at total 130-140 instead of 100, curse at 130-140, etc. make people pay the stat points to get what they want, not let them have it by coincident of having 100 vit (as everyone has that). back in pre-re, some class have trouble getting 100 vit due to lack of stat points on certain char, or they have to sacrifice their other ability to get it (as we old players know, "woe build")

meh, this kind of suggestion won't be heard of anyway.

I agree with this. If silence was put back on useful you would see more AB classes aswell since they'll be even more useful now, not to mention Wanderers. I would really love to see the immunity bar set higher. Maybe having it to 120 is enough. Since 130-140 is too much. That way classes that would normally be immune to stuff aren't immune to others.

Example:
Most Swordman class take VIT high so they would be immune to stun, but they usually don't take 120 INT so they would be weak to Silence. Same for other classes.

I really like this idea, it would be a more tactical form of play.
Besides there are cards that give reduc and immunity to stats, which very few people use now a days.
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#107 Aeroku

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 05:36 AM

i figured 130-140 range because there's more bonuses available since pre-re. back then there was only +10 foods that are widely available. now there is +10, +20s, lauda's, few other skills that gives stat bonuses. 120 is still very easy to reach with just even 90 base of a stat. add that up with how you can actually still get 4 100s....you can get immunity easily for everything if it was set to 120.

150 is too much, of course.

and oh, if that ever gets applied, remove the level difference status resistance. that thing is useless.

Edited by Aeroku, 31 January 2012 - 05:59 AM.

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#108 Cylon

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 09:07 AM

Mechanic

Skills: Arm Canon
Pre-patch : Splash damage, single hit, ground target
Post-patch: player or monster targeted

Why and what to change:
I will like to see multiple hits:
Level 1- 1 hit
level 2- 2 hits
level 3- 3 hits

why? - to bring the mech up to par with its 3rd class bretherens.
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#109 meoryou2

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 09:22 AM

Mechanic

Skills: Arm Canon
Pre-patch : Splash damage, single hit, ground target
Post-patch: player or monster targeted

Why and what to change:
I will like to see multiple hits:
Level 1- 1 hit
level 2- 2 hits
level 3- 3 hits

why? - to bring the mech up to par with its 3rd class bretherens.


No, you already get pile bunker + uninterrupt-able cast times on it. It's already on par (better in WOE) with cart cannon then.
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#110 Akin

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 01:21 PM

i figured 130-140 range because there's more bonuses available since pre-re. back then there was only +10 foods that are widely available. now there is +10, +20s, lauda's, few other skills that gives stat bonuses. 120 is still very easy to reach with just even 90 base of a stat. add that up with how you can actually still get 4 100s....you can get immunity easily for everything if it was set to 120.

150 is too much, of course.

and oh, if that ever gets applied, remove the level difference status resistance. that thing is useless.


I think I'd rather see it be applied to base stats only then and be left at 120. As it is now, you can get 100 points with base and job bonuses in at least 4 stats on most chars. With buffs and foods you'd still be in the same boat we are in now, or close to it. The only caveat to this, however, would be that you'd have to adjust Dazzler in some way to prevent permanent stun lock in strings for people who can't reach 120 VIT with their build (that situation would be almost as bad as Deep Sleep was before the patch). There are a lot of creative ways you could do this which would keep dazzler relevant, and prevent it from being OP.

Either way, making status effects useful again would be a great thing.
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#111 Aeroku

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 02:21 PM

^ quite debatable, but i won't say anything for sure until both ways are tested so we know which one is better...*Cough* and then again, if gm actually are doing something about all the suggestions laying around in forum lol.
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#112 ultra39

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 02:49 PM

Ideally, wouldn't implementing a system of diminishing returns on certain status effects work the best? In WoW, repeated spamming of stuns would keep cutting the duration of the stun until the target became completely immune. That system had its own flaws though. Once a target became immune, it was only for that effect and the next stun would work full duration again. SWTOR solved that issue by making it so that once you became immune to cc effects, you were completely immune for quite a few seconds afterwards.

If RO were to implement a system like this as well, you could pretty much remove the need for stat based immunities. IMO, it would also make using cc effects more tactical instead of back-to-back spamming, and might even make those status effect resistance cards more desirable (especially if you upped the resistances by maybe another 10%). Unfortunately, I can already foresee a massive tidal wave of QQ if they considered this as a possibility, and it already sounds like too much work for kRO to bother considering.

Realistically, what if all stat effects were given a known, fixed maximum duration? Let's say the stun from Dazzler could only stun for up to 6 seconds. Aside from the chance to completely resist the stun, whatever points in VIT that you have could also reduce the maximum duration, and 120 base VIT (or whatever amount would be appropriate) would still provide immunity.
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#113 asayuu

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 03:37 PM

The known "invincibility seconds after taking a hit" seen in most adventure games~ haha

Then we need something else.

1- Status effects cannot "renew" themselves. So technically, while you are stunned, you are [supposed to be] immune to stun. And this to all the other statuses too

2- Immunity to status effects at 100 is too low, as you can reach this value in 4 stats right now; Base stat would make debuffs [like harmonize, quagmire, decrease agi] pointless, and total status make it be exploitable with stat foods or god items. Some value between 120 and 150 is fair, because immunity will exist, but not so easily to reach as it is now.

3- omg I'm forgetful D:
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#114 Aeroku

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 12:43 AM

Ideally, wouldn't implementing a system of diminishing returns on certain status effects work the best? In WoW, repeated spamming of stuns would keep cutting the duration of the stun until the target became completely immune. That system had its own flaws though. Once a target became immune, it was only for that effect and the next stun would work full duration again. SWTOR solved that issue by making it so that once you became immune to cc effects, you were completely immune for quite a few seconds afterwards.

If RO were to implement a system like this as well, you could pretty much remove the need for stat based immunities. IMO, it would also make using cc effects more tactical instead of back-to-back spamming, and might even make those status effect resistance cards more desirable (especially if you upped the resistances by maybe another 10%). Unfortunately, I can already foresee a massive tidal wave of QQ if they considered this as a possibility, and it already sounds like too much work for kRO to bother considering.

Realistically, what if all stat effects were given a known, fixed maximum duration? Let's say the stun from Dazzler could only stun for up to 6 seconds. Aside from the chance to completely resist the stun, whatever points in VIT that you have could also reduce the maximum duration, and 120 base VIT (or whatever amount would be appropriate) would still provide immunity.

you have to realize, this isn't WoW, this is a very old game which doesn't exactly have the play style of WoW. some things can't be implemented due to the coding ability (not that i know if those kind of thing can be implemented), but its important to notice that many people tries giving suggestions based on WoW or other mmorpg while not knowing that, we don't have the game-style as them.
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#115 ultra39

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 01:46 AM

I've been on RO since around 2005, so I'm generally well aware of what's within RO's limitations. Which is why I said it was an idealistic solution, not a realistic one. With tweaks to fit RO's needs, having diminishing returns on status effects could work out quite well, but we all know kRO would never bother doing that much work to improve the game, given their track record. When news of renewal first came out, I was hoping they'd take greater steps towards updating the game (in terms of coding and all that), but unfortunately, they really dropped the ball on that one.

As someone mentioned earlier, people don't want to be affected by status effects, but the people who use status effects want them to work. A middle ground needs to be found so that status effects still have a place in the game and can reliably affect anyone, but doesn't become anything OP like pre-balance deep sleep or pre-renewal Dazzler spam on low VIT characters. For me, that was seriously one of the top issues with the game that made me end up quitting RO and moving onto WoW for a time. A lot of the problem does come from having so many extra stat points that it's too easy to hit immunity, but to be honest, I've never been a fan of RO's stat-based immunities. That's why I suggested a more realistic (in terms of RO's current state) solution to the problem as a sort of compromise. If they can add a minimum duration to skills (seriously kRO, get to work on fixing that DSL issue), then they should be able to add a maximum duration and apply a reduction formula based on stats.
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#116 lainee

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 12:04 PM

pre-renewal Dazzler spam on low VIT characters.


But back then that was the trade off, if you included no vit in your build then you were going to get stunned either by dancers spamming dazzler/scream or smiths dropping hammerfall. There was nothing OP about it. It was far more difficult to level pure WoE builds (no stat resets like now) however the reward was they would perform much better in WoE.
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#117 ultra39

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 03:42 PM

It definitely was a trade off that made more sense back then, but seeing stun locking happening to characters with even around 50 total VIT was still pretty bad. I'd say there were just about as many balance issues back then regarding the same issue as well, just most people accepted it and dealt with it in whatever ways they could.

However, I'd like to point out that a lot of classes back then that were able to grab high amounts of VIT were also the ones that would've had VIT to begin with, even in a normal leveling build. I'm talking FS priests, sac/gc/shield saders, spear knights, etc. If a wizard wanted to be stun resistant, and still be effective for WoE, they'd need to go straight VIT/DEX. Basically a pre-cast only build... That sure sounds like a lot of fun to play... You can argue again that it's a trade off, but does that still give any incentive to play a class that just sits there for 2 hours straight, dropping SGs on the portal? That's something that someone would dual client, not actually sit there and play seriously. Think about it this way. If weapons affected magic damage back then the way it works now, while also removing the INT bonus to MATK so that not having high INT wouldn't gimp you as much, a hwiz would've been able to grab 95+5 VIT, 90-99 DEX, and somewhere around 30-50 INT, making the VIT/DEX build viable for all around purposes. Would people QQ about wizards being able to do fairly decent damage, while casting fast and still being stun immune? I would think so.

-quick edit-
...And then I completely forgot for a moment how they kept introducing more and more equips that screwed over magic damage... Valk Shields and Unfrozen Wind Armors? That HP has high fashion sandals and a drooping kitty on as well? /gg against magic.

I also forgot... All it would take is 1 Acid Bomb as well lol... wtf... I really hate how RO can so easily put me in a bad mood sometimes...

Also, It's completely possible I could just be pointlessly ranting about pent up past nerd rage moments... If that's the case here, please completely ignore this post... Because I'm pretty damn sure it's quickly devolving into that at this rate.

Edited by ultra39, 01 February 2012 - 04:05 PM.

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#118 Lucentos

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 04:01 PM

The shinest time of High Wizard class was 9.0 Episode, where it can obtain the Mind Break and there weren`t that much Storm Gust resistance gear.
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#119 Akin

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 10:30 AM

*Cough* and then again, if gm actually are doing something about all the suggestions laying around in forum lol.

Magic 8-Ball: "My sources point to no."

That's why I suggested a more realistic (in terms of RO's current state) solution to the problem as a sort of compromise. If they can add a minimum duration to skills (seriously kRO, get to work on fixing that DSL issue), then they should be able to add a maximum duration and apply a reduction formula based on stats.


I suggested something similar before. My suggestion was a fixed duration, with no immunity outside of cards, and then a reduction in that duration based on some combination of level and stats. It also included a removal of the current level difference in status formulas. Asayuu makes a good point however, that base stats only would mean that many debuffs wouldn't be as effective. I guess we'd have to live with the knowledge that some people are going to roll with +30 foods and adjust the number accordingly (it might really screw over the people who don't though).
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#120 Viri

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 10:40 AM

You have dispel, powerful pets, extreme vacuum, etc etc etc
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#121 Derpaholic

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 03:55 AM

Yes, make it so that there is no stun immunity except by cards. i 100% agree with this
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#122 Aeroku

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 01:59 AM

^you know, that suggestion will only work towards renewal setting over pre-re. with that, it'll be similar to wanderer deep sleeping a whole guild again. so it's obviously not a good idea.

you just need to make it costly to get the immunity. if you're making it impossible, then everyone's gonna go make an agi wanderer, with 193 aspd spamming dazzler on string. i wouldn't want to imagine what that'll be like.
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#123 asayuu

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 04:12 AM

Oh I said on the other topic. If the problem is the stunlock coming from stringed dazzler, just change the 2s global delay to 2s cooldown, the spam won't be so effective. Same to Hammer Fall.

In my opinion, no immunity via stats should exist, but stats should push the resistance up to 95% [Look how Oblivion Curse has a 5% success rate even if the target's base INT is 120]
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#124 Aeroku

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 11:37 PM

you can't compare it to oblivion curse. that's a single target skill, and when it actually affects the person, it gets applied for such a long duration that often the best choice you have is to die.

dazzler is 100 times more spammable regardless how you change its cooldown than OC, it is aoe. that suggestion is still going towards 1-man-army style in terms of disabling people.
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#125 Akin

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 01:58 PM

Perhaps just a smaller AoE on Frost Joke and Dazzler so they don't affect people screen wide and through walls. An AoE similar to DSL sounds about right.
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