97 replies to this topic

[Kuropi]

It's actually kinda suprising how far you can go with crappy-moderate gear.

LOL I 150/50ed my Sura with eden gears, sohee shoes and a +7 carga mace, so that's no understatement. In like, 3 weeks. From 1/1.

That was, however, before lightning ride got the long-ass cast time.

Edited by Kuropi, 24 January 2012 - 10:45 PM.

[Macromega40]

Or make a mechanic and solo nogg2. Works for me.. and I get ALOT of money there.

That´s why im making a mechanic.... even if for some people isn't ALOT of money, is a nice place to kill and have a nice proffit...

[zplus]

Come on guys, I feel sorry that I kinda sparked this heated convo. To be honest I stopped reading into it when it becomes a little bit personal, didnt know who started it and it doesnt matter since it came from both sides.

One thing for sure is, we all liked ro enough to put in so much of our attention and emotion towards it, let's just take a step back before anyone ended up with a ban and ro losing a player.

[vendor1337]

But what I didn't do was buy them off other people and expect them to do all the hunting for me.

So you've hunted all these and got your gear, I don't have an issue with that. Using my previous example, if I spend the time and effort to up and sold enough fire katars from eddga to say get a Nids, why is that bad? Why is your play only the only/right way? If someone is willing to sell it to me at a lowered price due to low demand, who are you to say OMG those two are breaking the game?

Do I need point out, I hunted that nid with a group pre-re, and I hunted and slotted my own holy robes with the guild too. I broke many upgrading them. Sometimes it's just easier to go out and get stuff than buying it. So whatever fear this other guy has that I'm some super rich veteran with millions of zeny, d/w its not true. I made the majority of my gear. Before certs and stuff. I don't see why people don't do it more often.

Again, my issue isn't that you're rich or poor. It's the fact that the market is leaning towards buyers due to oversupply and you have made it your own personal crusade to fix the market. All I've said is that this trend is good for some, again, might not be good FOR YOU, but it is good for some, you can't seem to accept that simple fact.

[zplus]

On a side note, let's discuss a possibility of event woe on the side of regular woes.

Maybe making a new system that kinda merges pvp/battle ground/event woe, where you gets KVM/EMB as rewards, something for people to do outside of the boring exp grind/end game that is interesting and doesn't exclude anyone who is too weak/strong/low lvl/high lvl. And hopefully gets player interested and boost the population?

[zplus]

Deleted due to double posting

Edited by zplus, 24 January 2012 - 10:56 PM.

[Xellie]

You'll always be a newb until you stop considering yourself one.

If you haven't gotten past eden gear you're doing something fundamentally wrong. Hunting eddga is fundamentally wrong. (you can make 2 mil faster npcing stuff than wasting time on an mvp).
HEIM even posted how it's done. It comes out around 4milzeny/hour doing what he stated.

If you're not past eden gear.... then I don't know what to tell you. You don't want advice or help. You just want high level gear with minimum effort, you're aiming too high....

If you don't like the price, go hunt it.

Older players want challenges and things to aim for. People like you want to take GOALS and CHALLENGES away from us, you are a threat to this game. Casual players kill games. They thrive on their hardcore player bases. This is extremely true of RO, where the hardcore player bases are the ones organizing ET/WOE, etc etc and providing a structure for afforementioned casual players, who simply attack those above.

I stated several times I can see your point of view, yet you seem to HAVE THE INABILITY TO SEE THAT OLDER PLAYERS ARE IN THE EXACT SAME SITUATION ON A LARGER SCALE.

If drops are worth more (because the value of zeny isn't going up anytime soon) i.e: if things are RARER and VALUABLE you will be able to buy those HIGH END ITEMS your (selfproclaimed) "newbie" self wants.

But you seem to have a problem with gears being valuable. You'll settle for a 2mil fire katar (which is common as crap, has no value except EMB) instead of say...a raydric card being worth XXmil whatever it is on valk now. If firekatars were a saught after item, your problem would EVAPORATE and you wouldn't have this problem.

That's what veterans want. For things to be worth hunting so that everyone, including "newbies" as you call yourself can progress. Flooding the market with OCAs and BBs and certs and gears just makes everything stale.

So its not about what's good for me. I actually couldn't care less for personal gains, I don't need crap. But my friends who have the ability to hunt XYZ should be able to catch up with and COMPETE with the zeny at the higher level in order to step up a level.

In other words, to move up one rung on the ladder, you have to siphon zeny from those above you. This means something has to be desirable to hunt. Certificates going byebye would benefit you too. You'd be able to save up and buy things later on, to sell upgraded. You're not there yet, but when you are, you'll wonder how to make zeny then. It keeps the market fresh and moving, which is better for -everybody-.

I have a problem with you because I actually did step back and look at how a newbie would percieve the market. They want things to be cheaper so they can have them. Removing desirability is NOT the solution. I will say it again, a zeny sink is the solution. Something that raises the value of zeny. What is good for YOU isn' t good for the game as a whole. easy +9 KVM weapons were good for everyone, but bad for the game as a whole. Mass BBs in game so that I can get my own hibram card, good for me... bad for RO as a whole since everyone would be doing it.

Something else for you to wrap your head around. Not all veterans are driven by profit when it comes to wanting things to be more of an acheivement, some are genuinely worried about game balance (see influx of MVP cards, KVM gear), some want to keep that feeling of drive to get to the next "level" of being a player. It keeps people interested and motivated. YOU may not like it, but gosh, it worked very well for RO for many many many years. Some of us step back at RO and look at it and say.... "What is left to actually work for?"

Wanna know why high level guilds camp the mvps that drop stuff like diabolus gear? Cause there's been no evolution of that. There is no HIGHER MVP gear they can fight over and strive for. Instead of reliquishing the MVP now that supply and demand has been destroyed by certs, they keep hold of it because it's the only income they have. (WoEing costs a lot btw)
Who's fault is that?

HEIMDALLR'S ^___^ (not the veterans)

So I really think you are misguided when it comes to accusing the GMs of pandering to the veterans and as a veteran myself I take great offense to the things you're saying. I don't sit down and blast every newbie that crosses my path (although ironplushy might disagree <3 - at least I think I've come to some kind of accord with her, but we did not see eye to eye on newbie vs veteran stuff for a very long time and no doubt she still disagrees with some of what I'm saying) - I do however think you are being very unfair, when actually the veterans are trying to steer the game back to a better course where MVPs like SM would have been dropped in favour of better ones, camped by lesser guilds who need the equipment / sell it to people of a similar level as themselves (which means they would most likely charge less as prices are kinda set relative to people that you know)

If you're gonna insult us (veterans) you can expect to be fired back at. Especially if it's unfair and misguided.

[vendor1337]

You'll always be a newb until you stop considering yourself one.

If you haven't gotten past eden gear you're doing something fundamentally wrong. Hunting eddga is fundamentally wrong. (you can make 2 mil faster npcing stuff than wasting time on an mvp).
HEIM even posted how it's done. It comes out around 4milzeny/hour doing what he stated.

If you're not past eden gear.... then I don't know what to tell you. You don't want advice or help. You just want high level gear with minimum effort, you're aiming too high....

If you don't like the price, go hunt it.

Killing Eddga takes 5-10mins, it's a quick buck if I can find and kill him (not any more as stated). It supplements my income (normal npc loots and bits I can vendor from levelling), why is this "fundamentally wrong"? Again, your way of playing isn't the only way.
v
As for the price, you need to take a bit of your own medicine. If others are lowering the price, you don't like it? Better hope on the forums and campaign against it, well you're at it, might as well attack others who might be advantaged by this.

As for the rest of your post, I can only assume from your previous gems and just these sentences here, it's just more personal attacks and drivel so I'll stop reading here.

[Xellie]

Killing Eddga takes 5-10mins, it's a quick buck if I can find and kill him (not any more as stated). It supplements my income (normal npc loots and bits I can vendor from levelling), why is this "fundamentally wrong"? Again, your way of playing isn't the only way.
v
As for the price, you need to take a bit of your own medicine. If others are lowering the price, you don't like it? Better hope on the forums and campaign against it, well you're at it, might as well attack others who might be advantaged by this.

As for the rest of your post, I can only assume from your previous gems and just these sentences here, it's just more personal attacks and drivel so I'll stop reading here.

Cop out, there was plenty of logic in it

namely this

Wanna know why high level guilds camp the mvps that drop stuff like diabolus gear? Cause there's been no evolution of that. There is no HIGHER MVP gear they can fight over and strive for. Instead of reliquishing the MVP now that supply and demand has been destroyed by certs, they keep hold of it because it's the only income they have. (WoEing costs a lot btw)
Who's fault is that?

HEIMDALLR'S ^___^ (not the veterans)

Of course, you're too busy blaming veterans, aren't you?
Acting like a creationist having a dinosaur skeleton shoved in their face.

You're completely blind to the benefits that the changes veterans are offering would have to YOU.
You're not thinking things through at all.

Edited by Xellie, 24 January 2012 - 11:20 PM.

[Heimdallr]

Vendor and Xellie

Stop quoting each other and then commenting about what you think of the other person. Jeez just ignore each other if you are only going to use what they post as ammo to fuel your attack against them.

You both had a point somewhere a few pages ago but now it is being lost in the crossfire. You are get caught up in the Crossfire

[vendor1337]

Older players want challenges and things to aim for. People like you want to take GOALS and CHALLENGES away from us, you are a threat to this game. Casual players kill games. They thrive on their hardcore player bases. This is extremely true of RO, where the hardcore player bases are the ones organizing ET/WOE, etc etc and providing a structure for afforementioned casual players, who simply attack those above.

Again, a challenge for YOU is going to be even MORE CHALLENGING for those under you.

I stated several times I can see your point of view, yet you seem to HAVE THE INABILITY TO SEE THAT OLDER PLAYERS ARE IN THE EXACT SAME SITUATION ON A LARGER SCALE.

If drops are worth more (because the value of zeny isn't going up anytime soon) i.e: if things are RARER and VALUABLE you will be able to buy those HIGH END ITEMS your (selfproclaimed) "newbie" self wants.

But you seem to have a problem with gears being valuable. You'll settle for a 2mil fire katar (which is common as crap, has no value except EMB) instead of say...a raydric card being worth XXmil whatever it is on valk now. If firekatars were a saught after item, your problem would EVAPORATE and you wouldn't have this problem.

If fire katars were more sought after, those above me would be camping out Eddga and I would've never had a chance at getting ANY loot. If I'm happy with this, why does it offend you so much? Your.play.style.not.the.only.one.

That's what veterans want. For things to be worth hunting so that everyone, including "newbies" as you call yourself can progress. Flooding the market with OCAs and BBs and certs and gears just makes everything stale.

So its not about what's good for me. I actually couldn't care less for personal gains, I don't need crap. But my friends who have the ability to hunt XYZ should be able to catch up with and COMPETE with the zeny at the higher level in order to step up a level.

In other words, to move up one rung on the ladder, you have to siphon zeny from those above you. This means something has to be desirable to hunt. Certificates going byebye would benefit you too. You'd be able to save up and buy things later on, to sell upgraded. You're not there yet, but when you are, you'll wonder how to make zeny then. It keeps the market fresh and moving, which is better for -everybody-.

Your friends are able to hunt XYZ, apparently so are a lot of others. These others are willing to sell at a lower price point, this benefits players like me. Why can't you see that this is good for some people? Are you only concerned with those around your rung on the ladder?

I have a problem with you because I actually did step back and look at how a newbie would percieve the market. They want things to be cheaper so they can have them. Removing desirability is NOT the solution. I will say it again, a zeny sink is the solution. Something that raises the value of zeny. What is good for YOU isn' t good for the game as a whole. easy +9 KVM weapons were good for everyone, but bad for the game as a whole. Mass BBs in game so that I can get my own hibram card, good for me... bad for RO as a whole since everyone would be doing it.

Pot, kettle. What is good for you or your friends (as stated above) might not be good for everyone. i.e Those below you buying the items and those above you selling them. It's not that hard a concept to grasp.

Something else for you to wrap your head around. Not all veterans are driven by profit when it comes to wanting things to be more of an acheivement, some are genuinely worried about game balance (see influx of MVP cards, KVM gear), some want to keep that feeling of drive to get to the next "level" of being a player. It keeps people interested and motivated. YOU may not like it, but gosh, it worked very well for RO for many many many years. Some of us step back at RO and look at it and say.... "What is left to actually work for?"

I've never argued against this, I've already stated it's some not all the vets doing this. What you're advocating, however, punishes those who were in no way involved (certs, bbs etc). Like you had no part in the BB parties, I didn't either. Net result, market is flooded, bad for you, good for me. You're now effectively crying to have it tilted back towards your side.


And what has worked well for many years at iRO that has gotten us into this situation? The dwindling player base with no fresh blood because all the vets "want a challenge"?

Wanna know why high level guilds camp the mvps that drop stuff like diabolus gear? Cause there's been no evolution of that. There is no HIGHER MVP gear they can fight over and strive for. Instead of reliquishing the MVP now that supply and demand has been destroyed by certs, they keep hold of it because it's the only income they have. (WoEing costs a lot btw)
Who's fault is that?

HEIMDALLR'S ^___^ (not the veterans)

So I really think you are misguided when it comes to accusing the GMs of pandering to the veterans and as a veteran myself I take great offense to the things you're saying. I don't sit down and blast every newbie that crosses my path (although ironplushy might disagree <3 - at least I think I've come to some kind of accord with her, but we did not see eye to eye on newbie vs veteran stuff for a very long time and no doubt she still disagrees with some of what I'm saying) - I do however think you are being very unfair, when actually the veterans are trying to steer the game back to a better course where MVPs like SM would have been dropped in favour of better ones, camped by lesser guilds who need the equipment / sell it to people of a similar level as themselves (which means they would most likely charge less as prices are kinda set relative to people that you know)

If you're gonna insult us (veterans) you can expect to be fired back at. Especially if it's unfair and misguided.

I didn't accuse the GMs of anything, Heim outright stated it:

Actually most everything I do has a very large focus on what would interest the Veterans

You seem to think I'm out to get you for whatever reason. I've already stated my issue is attitude towards newbies and how they're overlooked, i.e. jacking up prices on items needed by newbies when prices of things hunted by newbies is falling (as stated: stems, iron, maneaters etc). As for the insults, I don't know where to begin, you brought ad hominem into this.

Edited by vendor1337, 24 January 2012 - 11:51 PM.

[vendor1337]

Actually just read what Heim wrote, my previous post was mid-typing so I didn't get to read his before I posted.

Cop out, there was plenty of logic in it

namely this


Of course, you're too busy blaming veterans, aren't you?
Acting like a creationist having a dinosaur skeleton shoved in their face.

You're completely blind to the benefits that the changes veterans are offering would have to YOU.
You're not thinking things through at all.

^^ However, this is just baiting.

Edited by vendor1337, 24 January 2012 - 11:56 PM.

[Hrishi]

You know, you keep talking about what is good for veterans when it comes to the market. Guess what, a lot of the veterans DON'T NEED ANYTHING. A lot of us have every single piece of gear you could ever want or need. We don't need anything from the market. The market saturating does not affect us as much as it affects new players. Because if the market is so saturated, how will "new players" ever become vets? There is simply no way to make zeny aside from buying kafra points.

[blongx]

I just do not understand why people still want the same gameplay from back then. Changes are expected and population decrease is expected also from old server. I played on old server of iris and chaos, made character and hardcore level as well. But if i was a new player now and have to grind like that back then, i would definitely quit now due to work. Most of us played this game during High School and College. With a lot of veteran working now as Heim mention, its not like population dwindled. I quit this game 2 years ago and came back due to a friend kept asking me to play again. I decided to play again because instead of grinding, its much better playing with other players now. As for this Renewal stuff, still getting use to it like a noob again.

[Myzery]

Vendor is now known as toilet since Xellie won't stop taking a dump on him.

[vendor1337]

Good to see the rest of Robin's band of merry men jumping, with the token ad hominem we've all come to know and love no less.

[Furinkazan]

Enter the mid range player.
Well, i actually read this whole thread and it seems like you guys were busy defending the social tier you're in (noob vs vet). Allow me to sum up things (correct me if i'm wrong).

-The drop of population (shorter play time) by players is due to the fact that all the end game content of iRO is nearly destroyed with:
1. All the KP items surpassing god gears / mvp items. (example: +7 alicel vs doppel/atroce card).
2. The nerf of god items (asprika is now pointless, megs isn't what it used to be without the 10x bonuses from str)
3. The woe scene is totally dumb, 2 hours woe where only the last 5-10 minutes matter, this also contribute to big guilds monopolizing forts instead of econing (the way it used to be). Maybe if possible fix it so guilds that hold the fort longer gets it, instead of last hitting at the last minute. This alone makes woe extremely dull and frustrating.


These are the few things I think that are the biggest problem to the way RO is now. There's no reason to achieve for end game equipment when they are harder to get than KP items, yet are inferior in almost every way. (Nid vs Asprika). As a leader of a relatively young guild on Valkyrie, i can say that it is EXTREMELY hard to motivate people to woe now. I don't have anyway to inject a vision into my guild members as why they should woe (since the items just... suck). There is no longer this huge value of honor and loyalty like the days of (wave vs geffen) on iro chaos, mainly because really, aside from the pride and glory, woe really isn't worth doing anymore.

Mvps... maybe have a higher exchange rate for MVP items to Eden badges, to make mvps more valuable. Right now, you really have to mvp 4 times to get enough items to trade for an EBM (if you're lucky), 4 ebms to get a reset stone... that is at 6m on valkyrie right now. So, why bother mvping and waste supplies and time? We might as well do a survey for 15 minutes and send that 100wp on the reset stone.. The naught sieger blades are slowly becoming novelty items when they can only be gotten from the highest level of ET.

So, the point is ... all the end game items have lost their values. The only end game RO has right now is alts, sadly. You get 150 on a character, then you create another. Woe stinks with all the exploiting of the fail mechanics (certain guilds are holding multiple forts when really, they're not even good. Compare to such as deity, denoue covena, wild blades of the old days, not even close). Anyway, these are the things i really wish GMs would consider, give end game items some values... people have been crying about buffing asprika and you're still not doing it. Add features to ensure fun and fairness in woes so that new guilds can dream to achieve great things with their new friends (who are the future of RO).

[Xellie]

Good to see the rest of Robin's band of merry men jumping, with the token ad hominem we've all come to know and love no less.

Well they could agree with you, but then they would be wrong too.

[vendor1337]

Well they could agree with you, but then they would be wrong too.

And here in lies the problem, someone has a different view to your own, they're automatically wrong. Quick someone has an opinion, better round up the troops for more personal attacks!

[mikeberserkr]

xellie and vendorleet care but their cause comes from opposing views

very intersting... ok where were we

[DeathDealer]

saying that you are poor in game all the whilst having multiple god items with ur very own name on them floating around the server(mvp carded itamz u own) seems a lil.....idk, like Mit Romney saying he knows what it is like being the average working american.( American Politics for out of USA ppls). Please no long winded posts on how they are not "ur" items cuz when it comes down too it, most of them are urs. If you really are poor in game, well i guess its comparable to still having eden gear as ur best gear as a 3rd class. Ur doing something wrong. Assuming you are "trying" to make zeny hunting elu like you say hehe.

Either way Vendor, until u learn the mechanics of the game and all the quirks and niches, expect to have a hard time making zeny and getting good gears until you have gotten one or two 150's. 4 ways to make zeny in iRO, 1 spend lots of time hunting things like converter items, consumable ingrdnts.,etc. 2, use ur high lvl chars to kill nid and sale garbs, camp mvps, and do instances to the max. 3. Kafra shop (ur checkbook) 4. get lucky..... So if ur new, you either put in the time and soon the zeny will come, or p2w.

[Xellie]

And here in lies the problem, someone has a different view to your own, they're automatically wrong. Quick someone has an opinion, better round up the troops for more personal attacks!

Mmm no, you have a very broad definition of personal attacks. Whilst I've accepted your views, you really aren't open to anyone elses. So... *shrug* see how I didn't reply to any of your stuff? What I'm going with here is the fact that I don't need to argue with you, as, at least as far as the community is concerned, common sense prevails. (But as far as Heim is concerned, money will prevail, so the game is screwed.)

When arguing a point if multiple people are disagreeing with you, I don't really think that everyone else is retarded if they're all arguing against me. The chances are that I am wrong, not everyone else on the planet.

Also, the majority of people who post here are veterans, someone did actually post a poll asking that. It was overwhelmingly responded to by veterans, so if you come here blaming them for all your issues, people will get offended.

What you're arguing isn't good for the game economy as a whole, so whilst I respect your position -

In the words of Spock; "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

[Inubashiri]

I think this topic has run its course to no where and back again.