19 replies to this topic

[Zelanard]

Pets talk...My cute little lif never say a word OO
the homun use emotes... but only the preset ones...
I would love to know what output and variables i need to use to make my homun say something in the chat box, or make it use emotes. is that possible?

[Zelanard]

Id also love to know the hunger and intimacy variables so i can make the homun use emotes and say things when they change and according to how they are...(if the homun is loyal to you i dont think itll say the same things as if it hate you... and when it becomes hungry, id like it to ask for food.. ^^')

[DrAzzy]

These things are not possible without using illegal client modifications or third party programs.

[Zelanard]

please correct me if im wrong but: unless its illegal for the homun to write in the chat, i cant see how it makes sense for it to be illegal? oO
the pets are talking in the chat. thus we can see that there is an access point somewhere. both the homun and the pets use emotes. Thus we can conclude that this is possible.
as far as i can see, the only thing that prevents us from doing it, is that we dont have the names of the variables and the output for the chat.
since im total noobish with lur, i cant tell for sure... but in C++ or java it would be the easiest thing in the world to do... id say that using third party programs for making a pet talk... sounds... like outright idiocy to me... using hte AI would be so much easier if we can have acces to those things... and what harm can it possibly cause?

Edited by Zelanard, 07 February 2012 - 10:09 AM.

[Helios0]

too spammy.. no more lag ideas!

[Zelanard]

too spammy.. no more lag ideas!

could you please explain what you mean but that, cos to me it makes no sense at all

Edited by Zelanard, 07 February 2012 - 11:07 AM.

[big742003]

Have you never heard someone's pet when they are below 25% HP? They repeatedly say things like, "Heal him!" This fills the chat menus (spammy). However, I doubt it would be a serious contributor to lag... And I would like for my homu to simply let me know when he is hungry. I'd even settle for emotes. It's not like running a 3rd party to afk feed your homu. THAT would be like botting.

[DrAzzy]

If it's not possible to accomplish with the AI framework we're provided with, it's illegal to do.

Actually, though it's not even illegal, you'd need serverside support for it, so it's impossible without help from kRO. And I want every iota of kRO's AI-related effort going towards functional problems not fluff like this (and, as Helios said, talking homuns would be extremely annoying). We have a number of critical issues degrading core homun AI functionality (like the one that causes "freezes" during which the client doesn't call the AI at all, and the one that we had to disable skills due to because it was crashing the server). I am afraid to ask for anything other than these, because they might work on that instead of the critical issues.

Also, it was explicitly stated at some point that having the AI read and react to hunger is illegal (which it would be anyway, since you'd need to write a library in C to read the hunger value RCX-style; this is not legal).

Edited by DrAzzy, 07 February 2012 - 12:48 PM.

[Zelanard]

If it's not possible to accomplish with the AI framework we're provided with, it's illegal to do.

Actually, though it's not even illegal, you'd need serverside support for it, so it's impossible without help from kRO. And I want every iota of kRO's AI-related effort going towards functional problems not fluff like this (and, as Helios said, talking homuns would be extremely annoying). We have a number of critical issues degrading core homun AI functionality (like the one that causes "freezes" during which the client doesn't call the AI at all, and the one that we had to disable skills due to because it was crashing the server). I am afraid to ask for anything other than these, because they might work on that instead of the critical issues.

Also, it was explicitly stated at some point that having the AI read and react to hunger is illegal (which it would be anyway, since you'd need to write a library in C to read the hunger value RCX-style; this is not legal).

Thanks for this info, no hunger notes.

id like to know where you have your info from Dr? id like to read about what need serverside suport and what doesnt for future notes.
that said, i honestly dont belive that this need any support at all... all this need is that someone tells us if its okay that we make our homuns have a little personality.
If yes: then give us the function/variables to write in the chat.

so unless your the one with authority to tell us yes or no, your the moderator here, can you please find out who have that authority, and ask the question for us?
its quite simple... if they say no, this topic falls, if they say yes, we have something to work with. ^^

and as for the guys who are afraid of spaming: if they say yes, why dont we make a surgestion for a set of rule conserning what the homun can say when and why and how frequently. For instance i wouldn't mind if its not allowed that the homun say a line of text twice in a row. It would also be a good regulation to limit the frequency as to how often it can talk. for instance 1 line of text every 150 seconds, if its in a party.

[DrAzzy]

Thanks for this info, no hunger notes.

id like to know where you have your info from Dr? id like to read about what need serverside suport and what doesnt for future notes.
that said, i honestly dont belive that this need any support at all... all this need is that someone tells us if its okay that we make our homuns have a little personality.
If yes: then give us the function/variables to write in the chat.

so unless your the one with authority to tell us yes or no, your the moderator here, can you please find out who have that authority, and ask the question for us?
its quite simple... if they say no, this topic falls, if they say yes, we have something to work with. ^^

and as for the guys who are afraid of spaming: if they say yes, why dont we make a surgestion for a set of rule conserning what the homun can say when and why and how frequently. For instance i wouldn't mind if its not allowed that the homun say a line of text twice in a row. It would also be a good regulation to limit the frequency as to how often it can talk. for instance 1 line of text every 150 seconds, if its in a party.

There is currently no way for homuns to talk, the kRO developers would need to add a facility for the client to tell the server to make the homun say something, and then they would need to add a function the the homunculus API.

Currently there are only a VERY SMALL NUMBER of functions available to AI developers to interact with the client:
GetV() (get information on things)
GetActors() (list of things on screen)
GetMsg() (for getting client commands)
GetResMsg() (for getting client commands - never seen something come through this)
IsMonster()
Move()
SkillGround()
SkillObject()
Attack()
MoveToOwner()
TraceAI()

That is ALL THAT THE HOMUN AI CAN DO with the current client. Anything else will require illegal modifications or a new client from kRO.

Anything that cannot be done at all through the client (with or without AI) is likely not supported on the server either, and would need serverside support added.
* Is there a way to make homuns talk through the client? No, in fact there's no case where a homun talks, ever. So this is almost certainly not supported on the server side.
* Is there a way to make homuns use arbitrary emotes? No, only the /ho and /swt, which are done done by the server in response to homun hunger, not requested by the client. So it stands to reason that the server doesn't have a way to accept client requests to do emotes.
* You can see for sure if these are supported on the serverside by hunting down the packet lists from bot/pserver information sites - but I'll bet good money that there's no packet defined to do these things in response to client request.

My point is that this feature would be a large amount of work for kRO to implement, seeing as we need to beat even critical bug fixes out of them. We have the client failing to call AI() for 4 seconds at a time, we've got homun skills crashing the server, we've got really really useful functionality missing from the AI functions. I can't tell if homun has line of sight to a monster or is blocked. I can't tell if a cell is walkable except by trying to walk there. I can't see damage numbers. I can't see if a skill succeeded or failed except by what I can deduce from watching SP (which isn't reliable, because a regen tick at the same time as using a skill will throw it off) It's like we're driving a car with no breaks and a missing wheel, and you're worried about the radio.

Also, I don't really think talking homuns is a good idea in general. I cannot think of a single thing I would want my homun to say to me, or to anyone else. Except that it wants food (we're not supposed to do stuff with hunger), or giving me realtime tracking of actor ID's - which is also mildly abusable, or trying to spoof people by naming their homun the same as another player - which is bad, or trying to send unprintable characters to crash clients, or large symbols that will fill up chat windows. I cannot think of a single non-ill-mannered use of it, other than "fluff" quotes like pets, which people would just be spammy. This opens a real can of worms. The more I think about it, the worse this sounds.

Emotes would be cool, but would be a big deal to get kRO to implement - and there isn't much they could tell you that you don't already know, so I don't think it's worth it.

Edited by DrAzzy, 07 February 2012 - 03:04 PM.

[Zelanard]

some of us have a little sense of sentimentality, YOU may not want it, but others of us do want it. infact, id go as far as say that the prime reason im playing the alchemist, is sentimental...
you know, some of what you say start to make a little sense... but please... when i ask where you have your info from... it means, send me a link with some documentation so i can read up on it...

[Zelanard]

i was so disapointed when i realized that the "pets" are more lively and have more personality then the homun

[meoryou2]

If it's not possible to accomplish with the AI framework we're provided with, it's illegal to do.

Actually, though it's not even illegal, you'd need serverside support for it, so it's impossible without help from kRO. And I want every iota of kRO's AI-related effort going towards functional problems not fluff like this (and, as Helios said, talking homuns would be extremely annoying). We have a number of critical issues degrading core homun AI functionality (like the one that causes "freezes" during which the client doesn't call the AI at all, and the one that we had to disable skills due to because it was crashing the server). I am afraid to ask for anything other than these, because they might work on that instead of the critical issues.

Also, it was explicitly stated at some point that having the AI read and react to hunger is illegal (which it would be anyway, since you'd need to write a library in C to read the hunger value RCX-style; this is not legal).

Buzzzz!
Wrong. You could do it by dumping the intimacy / hunger values from RAM to say hunger.txt and parsing that just like friends.txt. Now that may be illegal but the rest isn't.

You can probably even do it in shell code, definitely in perl / ruby / python/ java or pretty much any language. And seeing as reading your own physical property can not be made illegal - and the fact that you are not writing anything to the client itself OR changing the configuration of the client Gravity can't do a damn thing about it. If I want to dump every bit of data from my RAM that the RO client addresses I can do that, if I want to write a parser to parse that data to human readable outputs I can do that as well... Gravity can't stop me because what I am reading is available on MY hardware. As an added bonus they have no recourse against me since I would not be modifying the client. It's no different than hooking a debugger up to the client to see what SysCalls it's making.... or just plain sniffing the packets sent / received and parsing them into human readable outputs, everything done without modifying or reverse engineering the client.

[DrAzzy]

Which piece of information?

[DrAzzy]

Buzzzz!
Wrong. You could do it by dumping the intimacy / hunger values from RAM to say hunger.txt and parsing that just like friends.txt. Now that may be illegal but the rest isn't.

You can probably even do it in shell code, definitely in perl / ruby / python/ java or pretty much any language. And seeing as reading your own physical property can not be made illegal - and the fact that you are not writing anything to the client itself OR changing the configuration of the client Gravity can't do a damn thing about it. If I want to dump every bit of data from my RAM that the RO client addresses I can do that, if I want to write a parser to parse that data to human readable outputs I can do that as well... Gravity can't stop me because what I am reading is available on MY hardware. As an added bonus they have no recourse against me since I would not be modifying the client. It's no different than hooking a debugger up to the client to see what SysCalls it's making.... or just plain sniffing the packets sent / received and parsing them into human readable outputs, everything done without modifying or reverse engineering the client.

All of those things you describe are prohibited by the terms of service.

And if you need an external program to grab data from the client, it's not within the AI framework!

Edited by DrAzzy, 07 February 2012 - 04:10 PM.

[meoryou2]

All of those things you describe are prohibited by the terms of service.

And if you need an external program to grab data from the client, it's not within the AI framework!

Then the Terms of Service is illegal, plain and simple. I am allowed to access anything physically on my machines. They can try to stop me from getting anything usable by encrypting the outputs but that just wastes CPU time for games.
I mean think about it, Windows crashes starts a memdump and walla you just "broke the Terms of Service"... totally unenforceable.


And if you will read, I said having the AI parse the dump would probably be illegal.

[DrAzzy]

I am allowed to access anything physically on my machines.

And they are allowed to suspend your account if they find out that you are doing so.

I also question whether that assertion is accurate legally - intellectual property laws are pretty insane. Obviously, you should be able to access whatever you want on your machine, logically and morally, but I don't think that's how the laws are written.

[Zelanard]

And they are allowed to suspend your account if they find out that you are doing so.

I also question whether that assertion is accurate legally - intellectual property laws are pretty insane. Obviously, you should be able to access whatever you want on your machine, logically and morally, but I don't think that's how the laws are written.

it is legal to "access" any information on your machine. it is tho, not legal to use, all info on your computer. and yea... some of the laws are rather... confused... others are rather pathetic... but then again... there are some pretty pathetic laws out there... (half off topic, if a Swedish person cross the ice to Denmark by foot, it is legal to hit him with a stick)...

[Zelanard]

that said... it is not prohibited to have a third party program to write to a .txt file even if its in the AI folder. Thats is quite legal... else we are not allows to use notepad to change whats in there... and im quite sure we are...
point is, it would be cheating, so its simply not an option.

[Uyuni]

And they are allowed to suspend your account if they find out that you are doing so.

Doubt is it possible to know if you are doing so, like RCX...dayum even RCX is kinda allowed