123 replies to this topic

[Wiggles]

Good post. The OP makes some good points. Here's some of my own.
I really feel like the game developers encourage killstealing.

In fact they went to the trouble of determining in the game's code the EXP for each person attacking the monster, when they could have instead given the EXP to the original attacker.
The game also calculates loot priority determined by damage given and received. Again, they could disallow this and give sole priority to the original attacker.

In closing, the current system is flawed.
No matter how skilled at fighting, how good your gear is, or how much effort you have put into your character. This all means nothing, as the person to find the Valkyrie first is deemed the winner.

[Shadiah]

I appreciate the intelligent reply.

You misinterpreted my intentions. What I want is not a blanket statement like the one you posted, as, stated in the original post, it is my opinion that mini valks are on a much higher tier of monster than regular mini bosses. Also, as all of you love to point out, they are not even mini bosses at all.

imo, they should be their own class or moved up to an MvP, or just given FFA ruling because of the high value of their loot.

I don't say this because I want to benefit from it. I'm saying it because if I get banned for doing something completely logical (competing with other players for a monster that has a lot of value to it), I'm going to be really pissed off. They should be changed not for my benefit, but because of the value they hold. Mini Valks are the most valuable monster in game to kill besides satan morroc, and should be treated as such. (Excluding 1% and .01% drops from mvps, obviously.)

Value doesn't mean anything. Minivalks are not FFA so do not ks them. If going by value, AK or Incubuses should be treated differently than say... porings. Yes their cards are rare drops but they are much more valuable than poring cards despite being the same drop chance.

You asking for a GM response is selfish and begging for attention. Your question has been answered succinctly and in terms that cannot be interpreted in any other way.

[Oda]

Value doesn't mean anything. Minivalks are not FFA so do not ks them. If going by value, AK or Incubuses should be treated differently than say... porings. Yes their cards are rare drops but they are much more valuable than poring cards despite being the same drop chance.

You asking for a GM response is selfish and begging for attention. Your question has been answered succinctly and in terms that cannot be interpreted in any other way.

I will give the OP that they are asking for more of a "why is it currently this way" rather than "illegal yes/no" like the previous threads were.

[Wiggles]

I think they are more or less suggesting that kill stealing is not ok, however there are times where there are extenuating circumstances that may allow it. (Such as this case)

[Scuba]

I think the decision in this case is glaringly obvious that such a rare boss type monster with multiple highly competitive drops deserves a high degree of competition.

[Xellie]

umm guys, finding it first is the competition.

And minivalk HP is low enough that first hit will be all it takes anyway, so what would change apart from people killing balks that others are tanking? This changing minivalk to FFA would clearly only benefit the god item elites who need to make their new god items, let the lower level players have their thing that they do.

(and if you cant find it to tank it first, how'd you expect to kill it in time anyway? It's not hard)

[Heimdallr]

The reason they are NOT FFA is the monsters are not tough enough to be a deserving target. At some point a line has to be drawn that THIS monster is FFA or not. "mini-boss" monsters as are commonly mentioned would be ultra rare spawns that used to be "bigger" versions of normal monsters. Like Mastering, Angeling etc. But has spread to be any monster that has a respawn timer greater than a few moments.
If we allowed Minis to be FFA a strong group could just push around lower leveled players because might makes right, and the monster can't stand more than 1 or 2 hits. MVPs are intended to be different as they should require at least a battle to take place rather than a "show up it dies" scenario. Valk minis are in a gray area as far as toughness to rarity goes. But they are just a monster on that map, they are not special deserving to be allowed KS status, because it doesn't have the nice MVP sign that occurs when it dies, if it did this wouldn't even be a discussion point.

There are tons of monsters in the game that are about that difficulty level as mini-valks, allowing all of them to be FFA would lead to anarchy and complaints if full KSing rules were allowed on them.

MVPs are FFA, so are monsters that are "summoned" (BB, DB GM event etc) as are monsters on a PVP map (guild dungeon). But regular monsters that are just on the map are not FFA to prevent community implosion.

If everyone didn't "mind" ksing then likely the rule would be a moot point, but reward is lost when KSed, even in encounter locking MMOs reward is often lost when KSed, it just means the attacker gains nothing either. RO is not an encounter locking MMO, if it were you couldn't do things like big Aoes or fast attacks like RO is based on, to get this game play the community has to agree to not steal. If in an area and the community decides to "share" that is there business and if no reports are sent the GM team won't step on your fun.

[shado]

Just now reading this after thread re-open. I appreciate you finally posting what you think heim, instead of posting a few lines and letting us fight over what you meant. That's probably the biggest issue here. We're only willing to work with you and provide feedback if something is done with it.

Anyway,Xellie: It seems to me like you only play on ymir. I've played extensively on both ygg and valk, and can tell you that they are drastically different. Your opinion about ymir mini's greatly differs than my opinion on ygg minis, and potentially my opinion on valk's.

The reason something needs to be done about this is so that each player knows what is right and what is wrong. Not what they think is right or wrong, but what actually is. Once there is a standard, people will know when to report and when not to.

Now, about minis themselves: each server is different. Valk for example, you have to get right on them from spawn opening to end of variable, or you will lose a kill. On ygg, It's drastically different. I had a group of four/5 valkyrie guild players (on ygg) trying to compete with me to kill them every spawn. I got most of the loot because it was obvious they didn't have the right setup to be killing them effectively (Not trying to talk down to you, grow up.) I, however did. This is when they began to Pnuema spam them so I couldn't acid bomb, while they brought a sura to fist. Okay, that's kindof frustrating, but I'm not sure if it was right or wrong. I'm fine with the decision either way, and sent a ticket detailing the what happened, including about ten screens. I got this response:

Dear Valued Customer,

Thank you for contacting WarpPortal Support.

We are very sorry for the experience that you've encountered regarding on the said characters and their ill-mannered acts. We appreciate the effort in sending us the screen shots of the said concern. We will investigate the said character and apply necessary actions.

If you have other concerns, feel free to send us ticket and we will be happy to be of assistance.


Have a great day!


Yours truly,

Adrian
Customer Service Representative
WarpPortal Support Team

Thank you for requesting our support.

We apologize for the delay in our response.

We are sorry to hear about the issue that you have experienced with these other users. We will investigate these characters and if necessary take appropriate actions.

If you have any other questions please feel free to contact us again.


Steve
Customer Service Supervisor
WarpPortal Support Team

Regardless of what I or they said, this, to me, means they are going to do absolutely nothing at all to resolve my issue, and that they truly do not mean "Valued" customer. If I ever feel frustrated after having an interaction with the managers of the game, they should want to figure out why and resolve it to keep me playing here. Not fester into DDoS attacks that make even more people quit.

It's my opinion that whoever can get the loots should get the loots (FFA) because then if you could figure out a better way than your competition (Within the rules HOPEFULLY made absolutely clear) by the gm/cm team, then you deserve the loot. This is not about gr/dr/angeling/mastering/whatever you people can come up with, this is about mini valks. Please do not try and turn my logic against me, because in doing so you will be false.

If the GM team tells us what is acceptable and what is not, and updates it as new issues arrive, then we should be able to progress as a community towards something everyone can agree with. You have this brand new forum and brand new website, please use the resources you obviously spent money on developing in a way that will best benefit your players. I suggest you work with whoever handles IroWiki, as they generally have a good idea what info is needed, what is crap, and how to say it in a way that makes absolute sense to a player, instead of legalese.

Edited by shado, 15 February 2012 - 12:06 AM.

[shado]

Value doesn't mean anything. Minivalks are not FFA so do not ks them. If going by value, AK or Incubuses should be treated differently than say... porings. Yes their cards are rare drops but they are much more valuable than poring cards despite being the same drop chance.

You asking for a GM response is selfish and begging for attention. Your question has been answered succinctly and in terms that cannot be interpreted in any other way.

It's really frustrating when I answer your next post before you even post it. I clearly said excluding 1% and .01% drops. I did this for a reason, and that reason is that they are completely irrelevant in this discussion. Please do not bring this up again, as you are bringing attention away from where it should be focused.

[morakdais]

So you want them to be free for you? You qq about them NOT being FFA, then qq when someone goes FFA on it? You just sound selfish and ridiculous.

[Raidius]

shado, whatever they did if they were right or wrong, if you point that here mods/gms wont tolerate your accusations to another player (probably you know this already)
oda and heim already gave an answer about valks and which are their reasons. you can report them if what they did is against rules (of course with right proofs)
they said valks arent FFA so dotn fight over them if theres someone else already fighting them. (this is not only to you but everyone that farms them)
to keep arguing about it in forum only will get you pissed and maybe banned (be temp or perma) your forum account.

imo keeping this thread open would only lead to more flaming between players X_X

[CeruleanGamer]

What do you expect from someone who came from "cry more bro" guild? Of course THEY WILL CRY MORE BRO!

Edited by CeruleanGamer, 15 February 2012 - 01:14 AM.

[AdamBomb]

What people in this thread are telling you is correct. As far as rules enforcement goes, there are two kinds of monsters: MVPs and non MVPs. "Mini-bosses" are treated like non-MVP monsters and are subject to that set of rules. They are not free for all.

Perhaps instead of fighting with all the other posters here and the mods, you might have just sent me or Corvus a PM.

"OK, so it IS illegal! WE ALWAYS KNEW THAT"
Read Quote below..

MVPs == FFA.

Other monsters that spawn on maps normally != FFA

Mini-Valkyrie != MVP
Therefore Mini-Valkyrie != FFA

So which is it?

If you want to make the argument (as you are in the OP) that the rarity of a monsters drops and the difficulty of obtaining the components for valuable items necessitates a change to the non-free for all status of rare spawn monsters that is something that is part of a larger discussion that could still happen here.

Not answering which one it is..

I will give the OP that they are asking for more of a "why is it currently this way" rather than "illegal yes/no" like the previous threads were.

Understood from OP.. apparently not many people read it though. Thanks for taking the time to do so now.

The reason they are NOT FFA is the monsters are not tough enough to be a deserving target. At some point a line has to be drawn that THIS monster is FFA or not. "mini-boss" monsters as are commonly mentioned would be ultra rare spawns that used to be "bigger" versions of normal monsters. Like Mastering, Angeling etc. But has spread to be any monster that has a respawn timer greater than a few moments.
If we allowed Minis to be FFA a strong group could just push around lower leveled players because might makes right, and the monster can't stand more than 1 or 2 hits. MVPs are intended to be different as they should require at least a battle to take place rather than a "show up it dies" scenario. Valk minis are in a gray area as far as toughness to rarity goes. But they are just a monster on that map, they are not special deserving to be allowed KS status, because it doesn't have the nice MVP sign that occurs when it dies, if it did this wouldn't even be a discussion point.

There are tons of monsters in the game that are about that difficulty level as mini-valks, allowing all of them to be FFA would lead to anarchy and complaints if full KSing rules were allowed on them.

MVPs are FFA, so are monsters that are "summoned" (BB, DB GM event etc) as are monsters on a PVP map (guild dungeon). But regular monsters that are just on the map are not FFA to prevent community implosion.

If everyone didn't "mind" ksing then likely the rule would be a moot point, but reward is lost when KSed, even in encounter locking MMOs reward is often lost when KSed, it just means the attacker gains nothing either. RO is not an encounter locking MMO, if it were you couldn't do things like big Aoes or fast attacks like RO is based on, to get this game play the community has to agree to not steal. If in an area and the community decides to "share" that is theretheir business and if no reports are sent the GM team won't step on your fun.

See your quote above please..?

I am not trying to be rude here, honestly, I am not.. I read OP (and every post after that in it's entirety) and came to the conclusion that the reason we can't have nice things is because the internet is involved. As I stated on the iROwiki forums, that it comes down to a "NO! YOU!" response, not a solution.

What I want to be cleared up, is what each of the above Managers were saying. At this time please, do discuss among yourselves (the CMs / GMs) what the answer will be, because at this point in time, it doesn't seem to be a united front / understanding. Nor does it provide a definitive answer or standard.


In regards to what I am asking.. I understand the term 'practicing' when in regards to laws / medical fields is due to the fact that these fields are ever changing. What people wanted before, others no longer do (i.e. no mob-training rule in regards to leveling), which is the same with any MMORPG. Which is why I am frustrated with reading this thread (yes, that is the majority of this thread). So as someone who is practicing rulings on an MMORPG, can the GM Team (THE ENTIRE TEAM) please review what the official stance on this is. I know you can't make up for time that has already been served, but you can help to define what is going to govern iRO into the future wants and needs of this community.


One last time, please stop saying things like:

"It's always been that way -insert witty degrading remark here-."

And please answer:

"Why is it still this way?"

You can say things like "..a strong group could just push around lower leveled players because might makes right.." but, isn't that the point of competition? I mean, after all, if it wasn't, then should we disable WoE? Because, if we continue to allow it "..a strong group could just push around lower leveled players because might makes right.."

The following is meant to drive a point home not to upset a GM or CM:
Do GMs actually watch people WoE? Weak groups are either disheartened and give up, or they come back each and every week trying to do better than before, only to have the same results. Competition in part is why people of similar skill levels tend to gravitate towards each other, and at the same time, oppose each other. Say what you want, but at least think of your response before you actually post something.

TL;DR Confused by conflicting posts from (CM/GM), why are we still following dated rules? Think before you speak.

[Raidius]

!= means not or dif than.
as you can see he said MVPs == FFA.

[Tofu]

They are not free for all.

Therefore Mini-Valkyrie != FFA

These say the exact same thing.

[Raidius]

if you ever read about math and some other stuff terms you would know the diff X_X "!=" its a negative pretty much like =/= or "not equal to"

Edited by Raidius, 15 February 2012 - 02:28 AM.

[frankSG07]

oh, I thought the next person that will open this thread will get suspended??

[AdamBomb]

if you ever read about math and some other stuff terms you would know the diff X_X "!=" its a negative pretty much like =/= or "not equal to"

If you ever read, try reading all the way to the end.

Again, not trying to be rude, but my post wasn't saying "are they or are they not?" The point my post was trying to make is, why are we following dated rules that, in today's community, people seem to ignore anyways.

So you don't have to "read" my post again, I'll help you out.

Discuss why we (the community) are NOT changing the way miniValks are treated, and instead are fine with having these outdated rules stay the same. A generic cookie cutter sheet that hasn't changed much since the server first started.

[Raidius]

cuz the outdated rules work pretty well(all these years) and is just a bunch of ppl that think it should be changed, also would create a lot of chaos and then everyone will want to change rules.
just changing rules cuz soemone doesnt like it will lead to a lot of ppl bending rules to what they think its better (which in most of cases isnt)

also didnt try to be rude sorry about that.

[shado]

So you want them to be free for you? You qq about them NOT being FFA, then qq when someone goes FFA on it? You just sound selfish and ridiculous.

FFA Means free for ALL, not free for me. I'm just fine with them being able to pnuema it, if that means I can bring a guildie sura to fist it and take loot. Please read what I have said before saying something else that is stupid and misleading.

cuz the outdated rules work pretty well(all these years) and is just a bunch of ppl that think it should be changed, also would create a lot of chaos and then everyone will want to change rules.
just changing rules cuz soemone doesnt like it will lead to a lot of ppl bending rules to what they think its better (which in most of cases isnt)

also didnt try to be rude sorry about that.

One last time, please stop saying things like:

"It's always been that way -insert witty degrading remark here-."

And please answer:

"Why is it still this way?"

If it can be changed, than it can be changed again later on. Having an unclear and poorly defined rule is the only way you can bend it. If they list exactly what is and isn't okay, then you know 100% who is right and who needs to be reported. As it stands, even with their ruling of not ffa, I could still steal loot based on how I took screenshots/qq'd in a ticket.

Edited by shado, 15 February 2012 - 01:25 PM.

[AdamBomb]

cuz the outdated rules work pretty well(all these years) and is just a bunch of ppl that think it should be changed, also would create a lot of chaos and then everyone will want to change rules.
just changing rules cuz soemone doesnt like it will lead to a lot of ppl bending rules to what they think its better (which in most of cases isnt)

also didnt try to be rude sorry about that.

No worries mate, I just have a differing opinion. For example:

Policy on Monetary Trade
Once an account is registered and confirmed, that account is associated to that individual and the email account they used to register the game to. Once registered an account can not be transferred to another individual.

Any attempt to buy, sell, or trade the Intellectual property of Gravity Interactive Inc. will result in a permanent account suspension. Please note that this includes and is not limited to any item that could be found in-game such as Item Mall items, Zeny, Character or Account.

Advertisements or the trading of Accounts, Characters, In-game items, and Zeny for real life currency is not permitted. Any activity of this nature will result in the permanent suspension of the account.

Read the full post before attempting to discuss.

This statement says advertising the trading of Accounts, Characters, In-game items, and Zeny for real life currency is not permitted. This rule to me, seems outdated. Why? Realistically, there is no way to get WPE / KP without someone at some point in time spending cash on it, yet WPE is an accepted form of currency in iRO servers. Essentially bending the rules to suit peoples needs.

Does my opinion on this rule help you to see where my train of thought lies?

I am not saying plunge the servers into chaos by changing every rule. What I am saying is, take a look at what is actively happening on the majority of servers (iRO) and fansite forums and understand that there are differing view points on what is generally accepted. In my experience, when playing Valkyrie, if someone (let us take someone who's name rhymes with Palis, for example) uses a bloody branch, and is actively trying to kill it, it would be somewhat of a d??k move to come in and kill it, regardless of what the current rule says. Like I was saying, differing view points, but not at all am I saying you have a non valued opinion.

Thoughts?

Edited by AdamBomb, 15 February 2012 - 01:28 PM.

[Azerk]

Those mini valks would never be FFA. If it does, it would cause huge uproar and people will qq more to get it change back.

[Inubashiri]

[Azerk]

^^ This

[Scuba]

^
Logical arguments? Yes, mind blown!