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#1 Jumpluffspore

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 07:13 PM

Why does this skill have like 1/5th the cd of perfect strike, yet perfect strike was not multihit, homing, and stun=> opening ability to combo? This skill's cooldown needs to be quintupled or sextupled. It's like they enabled swift spamming, and even swift's homing capabilities were not this dedicated. It needs a cast time or a longer start up time which cannot be bridged by the 100% guard skill.
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#2 d2truong

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 10:18 PM

I think the cd is fine. I say nerf the range.
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#3 ThunderMBLAQ

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 10:41 PM

I think the cd is fine. I say nerf the range.

even if the range was nerfed to 50% of what it is right now it would still be a broken skill. I agree that a skill of this magnitude definitely needs more cd, 20 sec minimum would be reasonable

Edited by ThunderMBLAQ, 16 February 2012 - 10:41 PM.

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#4 necoconeco

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 11:13 PM

I would say the real joke here are all of your severe lack of understanding Ghost Fighter yet are suggesting a nerf, which to me is codeword for "please make this skill I don't like, useless!". But I know it's easier to overreact after seeing a skill once or twice and declaring a it to be "OP" than to actually figure out how to prevent, escape or punish. I recommend to please consult knowledgeable players, such as Nillachan, Engardi, xKrazed, Ikawa, and others of the "who's who" of the pvp community, who actually knows how the skill works because I'm sure in pvp they would LOVE for a Twin Fighter to spam Ghost Fighter without thought so the Twin can eat a free combo/lock/debuff/death! How a skill that can be prevented from executing, is escapable from being hit, and even punishable on hit would be declared too "OP" and need a nerf is absurd =/

Spoiler

Edited by necoconeco, 19 February 2012 - 11:27 PM.

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#5 necoconeco

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:19 AM

Hi um harlequin has no potential set ups against ghost fighter. Frankly,I don't see why you're defending it because I rarely see you use it. I don't see anything that requires a multihitting stun that goes anywhere. Sorry. Maybe summoner? Doubtful. \o/ How to angrily overdefend your class without considering the other classes. A+.
Sorry I'm not sorry but you always get over defensive the second someone suggests a change to the fighter class.


It must be embarassing that I know more about your class than you do. Not everything has to be about punishing unsafe skills. Have you thought about dodging? So you don't know how to use Exit, Burrow, or Moonwalk within Ghost Fighters one second cast time? The big pro rebel ninjas knew to burrow against Ghost Fighter Posted Image

Summoners do have a tougher time but with the new buffs they now have more ways to punish Ghost Fighter than they do now Posted Image


It's been five months and other players still don't know how to deal with Twin Fighter skills that came out in day one of its release but that's something due to a lack of Twin Fighter players who are both knowledgeable and skilled....and apparently players who know how to deal with it Posted Image

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

Edited by necoconeco, 20 February 2012 - 08:22 AM.

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#6 zabmaru

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 09:23 AM

It must be embarassing that I know more about your class than you do. Not everything has to be about punishing unsafe skills. Have you thought about dodging? So you don't know how to use Exit, Burrow, or Moonwalk within Ghost Fighters one second cast time? The big pro rebel ninjas knew to burrow against Ghost Fighter Posted Image

Summoners do have a tougher time but with the new buffs they now have more ways to punish Ghost Fighter than they do now Posted Image


It's been five months and other players still don't know how to deal with Twin Fighter skills that came out in day one of its release but that's something due to a lack of Twin Fighter players who are both knowledgeable and skilled....and apparently players who know how to deal with it Posted Image

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image


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#7 StormHaven

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 09:31 AM

Mmmmm
Both Quin and Ody have really valid points with ghost fighter.
It does have an insanely short CD for what it does and you can combine it with that 100% block skill to make sure it goes off, but on the other hand when fighter's do use it they're 70% of the time they're punished incredible hard for doing by traps, AoE status affects...
I've seen each class freeze/stun/catch a fighter while they're using ghost fighter in BSQ(including HQs).

This time for probably the only time ever I'm going to agree with Ody and say Ghost Fighter is not OP, just because it's almost a 100% the fighter is going to pay dearly for using it.

Edited by StormHaven, 20 February 2012 - 09:34 AM.

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#8 necoconeco

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 12:01 PM

All I smell is ego up in here. Moonwalk=> 20 sec cd, burrow=> 20 sec cd, exit=> still not enough when you're going against two fighters in bsq. Sorry but try again. Btb you don't know more than me about my class. :mellow: The ego was extra sexy though.

Of course the only thing you notice is my ego. Everything I said, like the little critical thinking it takes to pvp in this game, went way over your head. I just spoon fed three skills Savages can deal with Ghost Fighter yet you still can't comprehend how to deal with two Twins? If a Savage's only concern is dealing with Ghost Fighter at BSQ, then that Savage deserves to get hit. What makes a Savage think taking on two Twins solo is a good idea? Is it a lack of intelligence or is it ego? Taking on multiple players solo is only something a skilled player can do, like me Posted Image. The right team (which can include Savages) can easily handle multiple Twins unless you want to up the ante and give another wackadoo scenario. I can see it now as it's as predictable as a certain Savage's playstyle: A post asking what to do against twenty Twin Fighters at BSQ and have more of the forum trolling members of a certain guild to cosign said post Posted Image

Yes, Ghost Fighter is so easy and brainless it totally beats a an instant cast time, no recovery skill like Sword Dance. Posted Image
http://www.youtube.c...lrkRrWj4#t=180s
http://www.youtube.c...lrkRrWj4#t=131s
http://www.youtube.c...hiYxYzCaU#t=31s
http://www.youtube.c...iYxYzCaU#t=296s
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#9 Engarde

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 01:49 PM

The big pro rebel ninjas knew to burrow against Ghost Fighter Posted Image


^ I concur with this statement.
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#10 Engarde

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 02:19 PM

I would say the real joke here are all of your severe lack of understanding Ghost Fighter yet are suggesting a nerf, which to me is codeword for "please make this skill I don't like, useless!". But I know it's easier to overreact after seeing a skill once or twice and declaring a it to be "OP" than to actually figure out how to prevent, escape or punish. I recommend to please consult knowledgeable players, such as Nillachan, Engardi, xKrazed, Ikawa, and others of the "who's who" of the pvp community, who actually knows how the skill works because I'm sure in pvp they would LOVE for a Twin Fighter to spam Ghost Fighter without thought so the Twin can eat a free combo/lock/debuff/death! How a skill that can be prevented from executing, is escapable from being hit, and even punishable on hit would be declared too "OP" and need a nerf is absurd =/

Spoiler




Mmmmm
Both Quin and Ody have really valid points with ghost fighter.
It does have an insanely short CD for what it does and you can combine it with that 100% block skill to make sure it goes off, but on the other hand when fighter's do use it they're 70% of the time they're punished incredible hard for doing by traps, AoE status affects...
I've seen each class freeze/stun/catch a fighter while they're using ghost fighter in BSQ(including HQs).

This time for probably the only time ever I'm going to agree with Ody and say Ghost Fighter is not OP, just because it's almost a 100% the fighter is going to pay dearly for using it.




I agree with Ody and Storm here. Twin Fighters who spam Ghost Fighter against skilled opponents will almost always be severely punished. In fact, if you were fighting a Twin, you WOULD want that Twin to spam Ghost Fighter.
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#11 Endbringer

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 04:07 PM

blah blah blah


I thought you quit after storm 5-0'ed you.
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#12 necoconeco

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:28 PM

Typical path of a forum thread here in either you or someone from your clique bringing nothing to the discussion but meaningless game "drama." I'm not above being shutout 1v1 and I won't deny it ever happened (it has) but that particular outcome isn't true. I lost once in that match up and it was our first 1v1 session (3-5) so you better check the source of that lie. It was probably from a friend of yours so of course you'd have delusions of grandeur and hold on to that ridiculous lie as truth over what I say.

Edited by necoconeco, 20 February 2012 - 08:36 PM.

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#13 zabmaru

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:57 PM

[Someone proposes a change to Ody's class]: NO THAT'S BAD YOU'RE WRONG AND JUST BAD AT PVP. I am incredibly superior, although I don't know you. Allow me to attack you personally.
[Someone insults Ody personally]: wow how dare you insult me personally, it's not like I just did that

I don't know you, but the way you behave on the forums is just ridiculous. At least when I'm mean to someone, I don't get mad when they're mean back. I realize you must have developed quite the ego, being the most "normal" person in the special ed class as an autist, but please try to not be such a hypocrite.
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#14 Tamashi123

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:57 PM

I thought you quit after storm 5-0'ed you.



What does this have to do with twin's ghost fighter being broken? Your comment is completely irrelevent to this thread...just saying.
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#15 Endbringer

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 11:00 PM

What does this have to do with twin's ghost fighter being broken? Your comment is completely irrelevent to this thread...just saying.


That's nice.
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#16 OnEnd

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 10:28 PM

Nerf ghost fighter its fine..not like its really all that its crack up to be.

Honestly all twin need is weaving/power fist/lighting kick. Ghost fighter can be severely punished by most classes. All you gotta do is watch the character its not like it comes out instantly.

I don't use ghost fighter and I do fine against people give or take. That's like 280 points that can go into other stuff, like c/d reduction or 4th job skill. God forbid twins need more skill point sinks.

Edited by OnEnd, 21 February 2012 - 10:28 PM.

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#17 necoconeco

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 07:23 AM

Nerf ghost fighter its fine..not like its really all that its crack up to be.

Honestly all twin need is weaving/power fist/lighting kick. Ghost fighter can be severely punished by most classes. All you gotta do is watch the character its not like it comes out instantly.

I don't use ghost fighter and I do fine against people give or take. That's like 280 points that can go into other stuff, like c/d reduction or 4th job skill. God forbid twins need more skill point sinks.


I agree and more the players in a pvp game, the less effective and the chances of a Twin getting hit by using Ghost Fighter greatly increases. It's unique that players can't just move out the way to avoid getting hit. They have to use their skills (note the double meaning!) to hit the Twin out of GF or dodge. Even people at SEA sever don't think this skill is too strong. .

You brought up a good point about the ridiculous amount of skill points it takes to get Ghost Fighter. Without farming for skill forges (or wait for WP to sell them as IM), a Twin who wants use Ghost Fighter in pvp will have to deal with possibly having higher cooldowns on the more effective twin assist skills or have to forgo the "ultimate" 3rd class skills such as Infinite Kicking or Raising Drop Kick. And our 4th class skills haven't been accounted for since it isn't even released. I choose to use it because it's the only skill semi-practical skill that can hit opponents at a vertical and diagonal angle and not just straight like every other skill Twins have. There's a few nifty tricks that doesn't require landing Ghost Fighter on players but I'll keep that to myself for now =P

Oh, and I'll just leave this video to shows more ways to deal with Ghost Fighter.
http://www.youtube.c...ljEwfiofk#t=34s

Edited by necoconeco, 22 February 2012 - 07:44 AM.

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#18 Slayze

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 07:22 AM

I would say the real joke here are all of your severe lack of understanding Ghost Fighter yet are suggesting a nerf, which to me is codeword for "please make this skill I don't like, useless!". But I know it's easier to overreact after seeing a skill once or twice and declaring a it to be "OP" than to actually figure out how to prevent, escape or punish. I recommend to please consult knowledgeable players, such as Nillachan, Engardi, xKrazed, Ikawa, and others of the "who's who" of the pvp community, who actually knows how the skill works because I'm sure in pvp they would LOVE for a Twin Fighter to spam Ghost Fighter without thought so the Twin can eat a free combo/lock/debuff/death! How a skill that can be prevented from executing, is escapable from being hit, and even punishable on hit would be declared too "OP" and need a nerf is absurd =/


Give me a way to counter Ghost Fighter with Definite Defence as a Destroyer, without resorting to the infinite Camouflage bug.

I personally consider myself to be a fairly knowledgeable player, but unless I'm missing something, it's pretty impossible.
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#19 OnEnd

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 04:53 PM

In before bs excuse from the divine book of knowledge that is Ody.


I just wonder if they take out ghost fighter COMPLETELY, will you find something else to point out.

Edited by OnEnd, 23 February 2012 - 04:53 PM.

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#20 StormHaven

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 04:57 PM

I just wonder if they take out ghost fighter COMPLETELY, will you find something else to point out.


except that he's not against Ghost Fighter, just the current state it's in...
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#21 zabmaru

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 04:59 PM

I just wonder if they take out ghost fighter COMPLETELY, will you find something else to point out.


Easy there, Blue Panther. I have no idea what it is with people who predominantly play Dragonkin characters, but it seems like if someone says something negative about Dragonkin, there always has to be someone who rides into the thread on their whiteblue chariot of justice to say "YEAH WELL YOU'RE JUST AGAINST DRAGONKIN". I'm fairly sure he's just objecting against ghost fighter.
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#22 necoconeco

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 09:24 PM

Give me a way to counter Ghost Fighter with Definite Defence as a Destroyer, without resorting to the infinite Camouflage bug.

I personally consider myself to be a fairly knowledgeable player, but unless I'm missing something, it's pretty impossible.


Sure. Since you come here to give us the skinny on future updates, I'll gladly give into your demand. Now I am chatty so please bear with me =P

A little background info on Definite Defense: It gives the Twin an invincible status like Weaving for 1.5 seconds. It also has the exact same properties in that it's still susceptible to super armor/block breaking skills. Since it's active for 1.5 seconds I'll give probably the most likely scenario that a Twin may try to pull off.

Fusion -> Definite Defense -> Ghost Fighter

I know how a Twin looks like in Fusion mode so I'll use this as a visual cue that a Twin's main focus is to then land GF (the only practical AOE Fusion skill). Although the yellow orb appears instantly, the starting animation won't allow the Twin to do anything for about 0.5 seconds. This leaves the Twin, at its longest, one second of protection to shield themselves during GF's cast time. Anticipation for GF leads to faster reaction(something most players sorely lack and is one of the reasons why they unjustly label this skill as OP) so once I see yellow, as a Destroyer, I have up to half a second to cast Camouflage (1 second cast time). It's important not to go crazy and wildly spam skills because I will get hit by GF if I'm wiffing a skill with a long animation such as lv 3 Shootdown or Gatling Rush.

But if I am successful in getting into Camo mode in time, I'll be able to escape and most likely punish GF since I will be invisible while the Twin is completely wiffing every hit and it cannot be jump cancelled. If the Twin fighter feints GF then that's also good as DD will most likely end I don't have to deal with DD for 13.2 seconds at the earliest. What if I cast too late? Hopefully I'm not alone so the Twin might strike my teammate(s) first to give me extra time to get into Camo status. If Camo is in cooldown then I can also attempt to cast Carpet Bombing. Although this will cause me to get hit, depending on how fast I react I can hit both the main and support Twin which will prevent the Twin from unfusing and comboing me with Infinite Kicking during GF.

Remember what I said about super armor and block piercing skills? Well Flashbang is one of them. This next trick is a punish using Flashbang but it requires proper spacing when fighting against a Twin. One thing I've noticed when I DD as a Twin, is that players get scared and try to run as far away as they can. This is one of the worst things a Destroyer can do and will most likely lead to getting hit (situation pending). Destroyer's need to learn how to fight a Twin "in the pocket" which means to effectively fight on the inside (close range) against a Twin. Do not stay too far so the Twin can Fusion into GF right away. Effectively staying on the inside allows a Destroyer to punish predictable offensive Weaves and also shuts down the Twin's option to execute GF since the Twin will be very close to punish. Fusion is not jump cancelable so that's the first chance to hit with Flashbang. DD with it's start up animation is the second chance with the Twin casting GF being the third and easiest time to hit the Twin with Flashbang.

Effectively shutting down a Twin's options is the best way to deal with a Twin. I never claim every class can easily beat GF and with you being a long time Destroyer player, you of all people in this thread should know that very few things come easy for your class. To give a little comparison to how another class deals with Ghost Fighter I'll give a counter with Dragoons. All Dragoons have to do is watch for the Twin to cast GF, then wait until the skill is about to execute then just summon Spin it Bear. Heck, as a Dragoon with lv 10 Shield Mastery and Parry, I can even wait until I actually get hit and just spam the SIB hot key to summon the bear while getting hit with GF. Do I think because Destroyers have it tough that Ghost Fighter should be nerfed? No, because even a Destroyer can not only escape and punish Ghost Fighter. They can also shut down the option for the Twin to even use GF, given the player is skilled enough to play in the pocket.

The problem I have with a few players in this community is that they're so quick to label a skill as "OP" and especially in regards to Ghost Fighter. Just because Ghost Fighter is good, just because the skill works, does not mean it's broken and should be nerfed. In my eyes, there is nothing game breaking about this skill at all and as I've explained, can not only be escaped but even punished to the point where the Twin will have to think about it before choosing to let one rip.
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#23 Jumpluffspore

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 07:45 AM

Sure. Since you come here to give us the skinny on future updates, I'll gladly give into your demand. Now I am chatty so please bear with me =P

A little background info on Definite Defense: It gives the Twin an invincible status like Weaving for 1.5 seconds. It also has the exact same properties in that it's still susceptible to super armor/block breaking skills. Since it's active for 1.5 seconds I'll give probably the most likely scenario that a Twin may try to pull off.

Fusion -> Definite Defense -> Ghost Fighter

I know how a Twin looks like in Fusion mode so I'll use this as a visual cue that a Twin's main focus is to then land GF (the only practical AOE Fusion skill). Although the yellow orb appears instantly, the starting animation won't allow the Twin to do anything for about 0.5 seconds. This leaves the Twin, at its longest, one second of protection to shield themselves during GF's cast time. Anticipation for GF leads to faster reaction(something most players sorely lack and is one of the reasons why they unjustly label this skill as OP) so once I see yellow, as a Destroyer, I have up to half a second to cast Camouflage (1 second cast time). It's important not to go crazy and wildly spam skills because I will get hit by GF if I'm wiffing a skill with a long animation such as lv 3 Shootdown or Gatling Rush.

But if I am successful in getting into Camo mode in time, I'll be able to escape and most likely punish GF since I will be invisible while the Twin is completely wiffing every hit and it cannot be jump cancelled. If the Twin fighter feints GF then that's also good as DD will most likely end I don't have to deal with DD for 13.2 seconds at the earliest. What if I cast too late? Hopefully I'm not alone so the Twin might strike my teammate(s) first to give me extra time to get into Camo status. If Camo is in cooldown then I can also attempt to cast Carpet Bombing. Although this will cause me to get hit, depending on how fast I react I can hit both the main and support Twin which will prevent the Twin from unfusing and comboing me with Infinite Kicking during GF.

Remember what I said about super armor and block piercing skills? Well Flashbang is one of them. This next trick is a punish using Flashbang but it requires proper spacing when fighting against a Twin. One thing I've noticed when I DD as a Twin, is that players get scared and try to run as far away as they can. This is one of the worst things a Destroyer can do and will most likely lead to getting hit (situation pending). Destroyer's need to learn how to fight a Twin "in the pocket" which means to effectively fight on the inside (close range) against a Twin. Do not stay too far so the Twin can Fusion into GF right away. Effectively staying on the inside allows a Destroyer to punish predictable offensive Weaves and also shuts down the Twin's option to execute GF since the Twin will be very close to punish. Fusion is not jump cancelable so that's the first chance to hit with Flashbang. DD with it's start up animation is the second chance with the Twin casting GF being the third and easiest time to hit the Twin with Flashbang.

Effectively shutting down a Twin's options is the best way to deal with a Twin. I never claim every class can easily beat GF and with you being a long time Destroyer player, you of all people in this thread should know that very few things come easy for your class. To give a little comparison to how another class deals with Ghost Fighter I'll give a counter with Dragoons. All Dragoons have to do is watch for the Twin to cast GF, then wait until the skill is about to execute then just summon Spin it Bear. Heck, as a Dragoon with lv 10 Shield Mastery and Parry, I can even wait until I actually get hit and just spam the SIB hot key to summon the bear while getting hit with GF. Do I think because Destroyers have it tough that Ghost Fighter should be nerfed? No, because even a Destroyer can not only escape and punish Ghost Fighter. They can also shut down the option for the Twin to even use GF, given the player is skilled enough to play in the pocket.

The problem I have with a few players in this community is that they're so quick to label a skill as "OP" and especially in regards to Ghost Fighter. Just because Ghost Fighter is good, just because the skill works, does not mean it's broken and should be nerfed. In my eyes, there is nothing game breaking about this skill at all and as I've explained, can not only be escaped but even punished to the point where the Twin will have to think about it before choosing to let one rip.

That was actually really well thought out. I agree, that I was mainly just frustrated with being dual locked with this class, and being in bsq with two of them was a negative experience. However, because of your counter-measures that you've proposed I sincerely accept that the skill is not as op as I thought, especially with the weaknesses that you have outlined. I take back my opinion that this skill is op, even for harlequins.
I would also like to see this tested.

Edited by Jumpluffspore, 24 February 2012 - 02:50 PM.

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