90 replies to this topic

[Kazu731]

I realize the coordination of these events and items may not be entirely in the control of WarpPortal.

Please stop centering so many aspects of the game around the Item Mall. The addition of the Paris Wing box only serves as the freshest re-iteration of a long-practiced technique in this game (I refer to Blizzard Boxes as my primary example). To explain on this:

-To begin with, Paris Wings are most easily farmed through the use of Item Mall points to begin with. It is common practice to farm Drakos Tower starting at Floor 50 or not at all. It has become the standard to farm from Floor 50 otherwise it is a waste of time--especially considering the drop rate of the rewards (Hero Secmathian items, Paris wings), that a player with over 200 attempts can be as lucky as to get absolutely nothing or multiple rewards.

To tie in why farming from Floor 40 is not preferable is relevant to this idea. Farming from Floor 40 is not only much more time-consuming, but because of the widespread Item Mall usage, the standard has been changed to being that. Quickly, I assume, one's morale would disappear for farming after double-to-triple digit numbers of runs. Even with Floor 50 scrolls this happens. This style of play encourages repetitiveness and a willingness to spend time and money, rather than to exert skill or effort.

-With the introduction of an "easy" option such as the Paris Gacha box, the idea of farming Drakos Tower at all becomes nonexistent. If you're going to purchase Item Mall points in order to farm Paris Wings, the option of the box is much easier to go for. Operating on that premise, it is not so much the problem that Item Mall users enjoy the luxury of not having to work as hard, but that Item Mall point-based reward systems like this discourage actually playing the game at all (Which, as mentioned, has a very stale and repetitive nature at the moment, but discussing that in-depth is an entirely separate topic).

Combine this with events such as the Double Up event, the Call to Arms(?)* Event, and the various Watch Your ____ events, it is hard to ignore the implications.

-Double Up: This encouraged the possibility to, quite literally, pay $100 in order to skip a maximum of the latter half of the game (40 levels). This encourages re-experiencing low content and then experiencing no content. This creates a bunch of high levels with very little to do and very little done. Many players expressed dissatisfaction with this event expressing the same complaints I have now, yet it's hard to point out without noticing the huge number of players who participated willingly.

-Call to Arms*: This event did the opposite and encouraged skipping the first half (40 levels) of the game. A bit more refreshing than experiencing low content again. The asterisk (*) I've indicated means that this event has not been directly Item Mall-related, and thus I find it more to be a problem with the general ideology behind the events. Further, someone may argue that this encourages spending Item Mall points by trying to gear up your new character. When I typed (?) it is because I forgot the name and was not sure if it was the Call to Arms event that gave out free level 40 characters.

-Watch your ___: These events gave out cosmetic items and encouraged upgrading these to trade in for higher grade items (Example: cosmetic Kimarts -> Blizzard Muffler). I personally find these a bit more tame, though through reflection I find that it comes out similarly to the Gacha Box situation. It encourages, rather than attempting to farm, the spending of Item Mall points receive a high-tier grade item. Blizzard Mufflers, on that note, are a bit frustrating to farm as well. Perhaps less intimidating or about as equal to farming Paris Wings, but on par in the sense that is all based on a random generated luck factor rather than effort input. My personal gripe with this, and relating back to the Paris Gacha box situation is my ultimate point in this post:

1. The methods to farm these items hinge on a "luck" factor ->
2. Chances of getting at least one of these items (Paris Wings) are made easier through Item Mall ->
2.5. This establishes a standard further reducing effort and encouraging repetitiveness ->
3. An event comes and eliminates the need for even the most minimal amount of effort, instead establishing an easy-way-out

I also realize that whining without suggesting solutions is inherently very stupid. By that logic, I would have to support a system not based on luck or random drops, but by the effort put in. For example, farming materials for Paris Wings in the same way you would farm for a Zauharant, you could make an "incomplete" pair of Paris Wings, which would be upgrade-able through, perhaps, running through the full dungeon. This would keep the random factor, but certainly lessen it. I have a hard time even swallowing "running the full dungeon" because of the implication of repetitiveness, but I cannot think of many solutions. I also do not believe that we would like a "Gear dispenser" either--ideally a middle ground could be found. Elga Wings seem to work almost in the fashion I suggest. But I cannot go into my gripes with the current endgame at this time.

While not the original intention of my post, I'd bemoan the endgame's current status, but that may be for a future post in this thread. Normally this is a topic I'd condemn and insult, but I find that the edge just seems to be being pushed further and further with minimal regard to game mechanic.

Edited by Kazu731, 21 March 2012 - 11:33 AM.

[Kazu731]

'm going to go ahead and double post and write down my opinion on the current endgame as well. I would like a Moderator to move this to the Game Balances area of the forums--as I see all of these flaws as inherent part of game balance as a whole, outside of class and game mechanic.

I believe that the current endgame is very flawed. As it is, as I've hinted at, it feels as if development/WarpPortal is encouraging many alternate characters, while there is a very incoherent form of progression in the game, in my opinion. Creating more level 80 characters, in my opinion, will not fix any of the things I have to say.

Black Claw Nest is the current endgame dungeon. This dungeon, stripped down to its most basic form, requires at least the following things to be successful

1. A Ninja with a highly upgraded weapon (See point 3)
-A Ninja is capable putting out the highest DPS in the game when coupled with Dragoons (See point 2). This is through the use of Throwing Dagger, which has a low cooldown and multi-hit (What do you call this again?) effect, by having all of the thrown daggers hit the same target, the damage piles up very quickly. However, due to Elga's HP--and I cannot confirm this--a minimum of at least one (More?) ninjas with a +20 Zauharant is a must (See point 3). In my opinion, nerfing Dagger would be flawed as no other class would be capable of putting out the same damage.
2. A Dragoon
-A Dragoon has a skill called Time Reverse which lowers the cooldown and cast-time for party members. When near a partied Ninja, the Ninja can spam Throwing Dagger without restriction. The Dragoon is the enabler. In my opinion, nerfing Time Reverse would be flawed as its benefits only allow this peculiar loophole for one skill on one other class.
3. Item Mall points
-The Ninja requires a very highly upgraded weapon. Getting to +20 takes not only a lot of gold and weapon powder (Which is a foot in the right direction, as this requires playing the game. However, purchasing Weapon Powder and making gold is made much easier by having access to IM. Illegal or not, IM <-> Gold trades do still happen. Weapon powder is also very scarce for the amount consumed and rate of success). Getting to +20 takes an astronomical amount of IM and is hardly viable to a casual player. Not only this, deaths are very common in the dungeon. It is not uncommon for players to report up to 50-60 deaths per Elga. The more experienced groups can focus on minimizing this, but only through the privilege granted by playing it enough with Item Mall capabilities. e.g. A team that cannot complete form 1 without dying cannot attempt to learn form 2's attack pattern. This means resorting to Feathers or Easter Eggs. The Easter Eggs are a generous addition to the Item Mall because they are sold in bulk--but the flaw in this is that it is an Item Mall purchase. A casual player is therefore punished by being deprived of endgame content due to lack of Item Mall abilities (Read: Money). Further, Paris Wings/Hero Secmathian/Defense (See point 4)
4. Defense
-To obtain Paris Wings, as I've explained, it more often than not takes Item Mall points to farm more easily. In the event a player purchased it off of the market, he would still need to upgrade these to around +15-+20 to have viable defense. This defense does not guarantee a no-death situation in Elga--and I do not think it should, either. However, it seems the cost-benefit of this particular stat is quite oddly skewed in Elga and perhaps someone with more experience can speak to it.

I cannot name any more at this time. To summarize, this dungeon is extraordinarily limited in scope based on class and money spent. Not only is it ridiculous to have only one class be able to dish out the appropriate DPS to kill a boss (Granted it needs the aid of another class), it is ridiculous that this particular dungeon's difficulty is based on money rather than skill or effort. I personally believe that, when Elga was introduced, we all jumped for joy at the thought of a boss that required a bit of thinking. I do not believe that has changed, but I personally believe that the skill factor has been so completely minimized the more the community has become familiarized with the dungeon that it has ultimately been worked down to a science of Ninja + Dragoon + Money.

Even further stratifying this dungeon is the difficulty scaling. The difficulty in Dragon Saga does not increase very much through level progression. Mission Maps all have about the same level of difficulty and that level of difficulty is minimal. If every Mission Map were level 1, I would hardly find a difference between Windia Plains or Skypie Sanctuary or Edge of the World other than the time it takes to traverse through the map and, of course, use skills. The bosses all follow a very similar formula. The rage system has attempted to add a dynamic to boss fights but due to the quick-paced nature of the game becomes a game of first-to-groggy. Rage mode is hardly threatening in the least, and once a boss is groggied, it is rare for them to ever resume attacking when playing with a party.

The dungeons are perhaps the best redeeming quality, yet have an inconsistent difficulty factor. Kundara Dungeon is pretty challenging for its level, yet at the same time we have another dungeon for the very same level (55) that has a seemingly extraordinary boost in difficulty. This difficulty stems, mostly, from a shallow increase in HP. The longer it takes to kill something, the more difficult it has been disguised to be.

Van Cliff Mansion and Drakos Tower on the other hand take a very linear floor progression approach. I found this to be more appealing in Van Cliff Mansion than in Drakos Tower. I still hold that there is something to be said for the atmosphere of Van Cliff Mansion, and the ultimate goal of Job Changing, following a boss that, to the average player, can be somewhat of a challenge (Bone Dragon). My only problem with Van Cliff Mansion, again, is the drop rate. The luck factor encourages constant spamming (The Floor scrolls in the IM prove less worth it in this dungeon), and often very little to show for it. There is no sense of accomplishment or progression, but rather a repetitive nature. Drakos Tower condemns you to very little excitement--knowing you have 50 floors of the same thing to do. This proves more of a chore with no excitement between. There are the three "bigger" bosses: Kimart, Gaiden, and Antares. But these fights are no different than the fight on floor 1 in terms of challenge or accomplishment. Knowing you have to go kill the "main villain" hardly gives any hype, especially when the fight has been reduced to constant spamming with seemingly random reward. However, I do not think the system of making the Zauharant weapon is entirely too bad, albeit a bit tedious.

Back to Black Claw Nest. The rewards from this dungeon are, in my opinion, almost insulting. The weapon is hardly a step above the Zauharant and takes probably an equal amount of runs as Paris Wings, except the difficulty is scaled incredibly high. The jump in difficulty (Read: the four points I mentioned earlier, which is a pseudo-difficulty in my opinion) is extraordinary from Drakos Tower to Black Claw Nest. PvE is considered to the average player a game of spamming skills and clearing as fast as possible--then they are hit with a dungeon that is limited to only the highest DPS and cash spenders. There is zero middle ground between these two, and a nonexistent upward slope of challenge. The sets prove about as useful as their DEF for some classes (Dragoon), and almost perfect for others (Ninja--which is a curious thing considering that a Ninja is able to complete it easiest). Meanwhile, classes like Sorcerer receive Evade Rate--perhaps the most useless stat of all for this particular class, and all the while encouraging the two commonly useless character stats (STR and INT) on the respective classes. These are all essentially empty bonus spaces. I find it very difficult to understand how a game two years in progress and many more in development fails to recognize common errors that players realize upon equipping.

Edited by Kazu731, 30 March 2012 - 08:41 AM.

[Kazu731]

This leads me to the point that encouraging more level 80 players is a bad thing. Unless you are specifically directing people to make a Ninja or a Dragoon, or to get people to buy IM to buy their new characters, it encourages reliving the rather drab lower content fruit (Thanks for that word, Miname), or shoots them directly to level 80 where you can do nothing if you are not the right class with the right money.

On top of this, without the events, leveling is a bit of a mixed bag. F7 introduced an alt-tab style of grinding which detracted very much from actually playing. Coupled with events like Race to the Cap when level 80 was released, and again we see forced-cap syndrome. While this may be a harmless reward to those who enjoy competition, they unknowingly rush themselves to a dead end with nothing to do. The limit attempted to cap this F7 abuse and put a balance on it, but in actuality just handicaps players from doing the best form of grinding--which is a system that is lazy. Yellow Quests offer such miniscule EXP that they are not worth doing. F6 can be spammed but quickly get boring and slows down to intolerable levels beyond 50.

Another thing to mention are the various systems developers put in place. Professions and Elements, namely. Professions have received more changes in their short time alive than any other form of balance, in my opinion, and all for the worse. It entails a seemingly months on end's worth of work from a coordinated group of many players. This system is largely picked up and abandoned, especially by newer players who do not quite understand it. Further, there is little incentive to do it at any level other than the endgame. At which point it becomes a chore only to boost stats that still put them nowhere near appropriate DPS for Black Claw Nest. Elements are (Another issue I've completely ignored) extraordinarily laggy to run and the result is incredibly worthless. A few points of attack or defense for certain elements is about 1/10 of any sort of serious number that would help for the endgame. Couple this with the random nature of the card you get, and you have a system that is little more than a time killer with no benefit to offer.

[Coolsam]

About the difficulty of Black Claw Nest. I was personally glad to see a jump in difficulty but that jump was ridiculous. I mean unlike missions, dungeons boss hp and monster counts (Van Cliff and Drakos are exceptions for monster counts but the hp is the same.) stay the same regardless of number of players. I understand the idea of an 8-man instance but it stays at that 8-man instance for everything even if you go in there with 2-3 people.

-Same Groggy bar needing 5-8 players to fill quickly.
-Same hp (from 25m hp to 200m+ hp).
-Same monster count. (The most is the path to first boss which is about 112-140 monsters all having battlesquare flag spike hp. Which is troublesome to kill w/o a high enchanted weapon + Critical damage)

Enough about Elga. But I agree it seems now cash-spending removes the point of grinding and leveling or makes it so you only do half the work. I understand a genius idea to remove 9 floors of grinding at the least for getting Drakos done would be a reason of spending IM but taking all of the grinding off for the rarest drop is getting ridiculous. I understand items like a hammer repairing items on the go, assist players in getting good status shops, or a potion shop anywhere in the game (fix for level 40 potions though.) but pretty much ruining the grinding aspect of an MMO is not the way to go.

[StormHaven]

About the difficulty of Black Claw Nest. I was personally glad to see a jump in difficulty but that jump was ridiculous. I mean unlike missions, dungeons boss hp and monster counts (Van Cliff and Drakos are exceptions for monster counts but the hp is the same.) stay the same regardless of number of players. I understand the idea of an 8-man instance but it stays at that 8-man instance for everything even if you go in there with 2-3 people.

-Same Groggy bar needing 5-8 players to fill quickly.
-Same hp (from 25m hp to 200m+ hp).
-Same monster count. (The most is the path to first boss which is about 112-140 monsters all having battlesquare flag spike hp. Which is troublesome to kill w/o a high enchanted weapon + Critical damage)

Enough about Elga. But I agree it seems now cash-spending removes the point of grinding and leveling or makes it so you only do half the work. I understand a genius idea to remove 9 floors of grinding at the least for getting Drakos done would be a reason of spending IM but taking all of the grinding off for the rarest drop is getting ridiculous. I understand items like a hammer repairing items on the go, assist players in getting good status shops, or a potion shop anywhere in the game (fix for level 40 potions though.) but pretty much ruining the grinding aspect of an MMO is not the way to go.

Except the only thing that makes black claw "difficult" at all is the amount of HP the mini bosses and Elga have other than that it's an easy dungeon that isn't difficult at all and teaches you the importance of teamwork and manual dodging, even grogging can be done with just 2 non Ninja/Pally people if you pay attention.

Edited by StormHaven, 21 March 2012 - 01:21 PM.

[zabmaru]

About the difficulty of Black Claw Nest. I was personally glad to see a jump in difficulty but that jump was ridiculous. I mean unlike missions, dungeons boss hp and monster counts (Van Cliff and Drakos are exceptions for monster counts but the hp is the same.) stay the same regardless of number of players. I understand the idea of an 8-man instance but it stays at that 8-man instance for everything even if you go in there with 2-3 people.

-Same Groggy bar needing 5-8 players to fill quickly.
-Same hp (from 25m hp to 200m+ hp).
-Same monster count. (The most is the path to first boss which is about 112-140 monsters all having battlesquare flag spike hp. Which is troublesome to kill w/o a high enchanted weapon + Critical damage)

Enough about Elga. But I agree it seems now cash-spending removes the point of grinding and leveling or makes it so you only do half the work. I understand a genius idea to remove 9 floors of grinding at the least for getting Drakos done would be a reason of spending IM but taking all of the grinding off for the rarest drop is getting ridiculous. I understand items like a hammer repairing items on the go, assist players in getting good status shops, or a potion shop anywhere in the game (fix for level 40 potions though.) but pretty much ruining the grinding aspect of an MMO is not the way to go.

Just to nitpick a bit:
The "difficulty" you're talking about is more of the psuedo-difficulty mentioned above. It doesn't require (although it helps) much skill, but is rather a Gear + Class + Money formula.

Another problem isn't "taking away" grinding, per se. It's more the fact that all there is to DO is the exact same thing for hours on end. This may sound like the same thing, but I like to think traditional grinding has some kind of variation instead of "F6 until 40, then F7 until 80". That and the drop system for Drakos is ridiculous.

And the hammers are insulting, imo.

[Kazu731]

About the difficulty of Black Claw Nest. I was personally glad to see a jump in difficulty but that jump was ridiculous. I mean unlike missions, dungeons boss hp and monster counts (Van Cliff and Drakos are exceptions for monster counts but the hp is the same.) stay the same regardless of number of players. I understand the idea of an 8-man instance but it stays at that 8-man instance for everything even if you go in there with 2-3 people.

-Same Groggy bar needing 5-8 players to fill quickly.
-Same hp (from 25m hp to 200m+ hp).
-Same monster count. (The most is the path to first boss which is about 112-140 monsters all having battlesquare flag spike hp. Which is troublesome to kill w/o a high enchanted weapon + Critical damage)

Enough about Elga. But I agree it seems now cash-spending removes the point of grinding and leveling or makes it so you only do half the work. I understand a genius idea to remove 9 floors of grinding at the least for getting Drakos done would be a reason of spending IM but taking all of the grinding off for the rarest drop is getting ridiculous. I understand items like a hammer repairing items on the go, assist players in getting good status shops, or a potion shop anywhere in the game (fix for level 40 potions though.) but pretty much ruining the grinding aspect of an MMO is not the way to go.

This is precisely what I feel and perhaps didn't mention. I am fine with "convenience" items in the Cash Shop, and to a degree I even support some of the items that actually affect your character's abilities and boost them, but there is a clear line that has been breached very far. The luxury aspect now quickly removes the point of the game entirely, encouraging more high levels, with nothing to do at high levels.

A scaled Elga would be a good start, but I am fearful of it becoming too easy. You have more experience with Elga than I do, so I'm sure you understand what I'm saying very well. I am one of the people who--because I do not happen to know the right Ninjas in server, or have enough IM to spend on 50 Easter Eggs a run, or to +20 a weapon for my Ninja that's a little nooblet, I am basically unable to participate in this dungeon. At one point I felt as if I was just jealous and envious of those who could go, but I feel now that it has many inherent flaws in its execution. I am glad for the people who get to play it, don't get me wrong, but I would like the opportunity to be available to everyone rather than require a specific class. I also could not forgive the insane difficulty jump and necessity for IM.

[Kazu731]

Except the only thing that makes black claw "difficult" at all is the amount of HP the mini bosses and Elga have other than that it's an easy dungeon that isn't difficult at all and teaches you the importance of teamwork and manual dodging, even grogging can be done with just 2 non Ninja/Pally people if you pay attention.

I can't agree with this entirely. I agree that the difficulty is just through highly mutliplied HP, but there remains the inability to deal the necessary DPS which is quite harshly handcuffed to all but a Ninja+Dragoon.

EDIT: Which, in keeping with the premise, is the point entirely. Upgraded HP--also seen at Red Fox Delta--is a pseudo-difficulty and not at all real. The problem with Elga would be severely undercut if the timer were removed, but would not eliminate the need for IM entirely either.

Edited by Kazu731, 21 March 2012 - 01:30 PM.

[HavocInfinity]

I would also like to add a few things that need to be addressed. Such as
(1) Leveling to 80 - Instantly. There needs to be more events such that players can max their levels within a few button clicks so that there are more level 80s to pvp with. The process of playing through the quests and tower defense is boring and tiresome, and I think if we all could just skip that and all be happy level 80s, the game would be much more fun to play.
(2) Gearing up. I absolutely love the idea of having rare items like Paris Wings in the IM because now I don't have to go farm Drakos for hours; instead I can spend some money and all those low-class players have no shot at competing with me. However, I completely disagree with such a cheap price they are at... Paris Wing Gashas should be worth at least twice as much to discourage those free players from even buying one gasha, which who knows, may have the Paris Wings they need to act all pro like the people who fund you guys.

Thank you for reading my concerns and for considering initiative to improve Dragon Saga for all players.

EDIT: to all those unaware... this post was a troll post...

Edited by HavocInfinity, 21 March 2012 - 08:28 PM.

[GrapefruitGod]

I'd actually prefer to have more items like that available to free players. Granted they may be rare and all that, but I'm a pvp guy and I'd prefer if high end gear were more available so more people would be more willing to play. Even if they get the items for free there's no way they'd be able to compete with people with upgraded gear (on the extreme end). Still kind of bad for what I want, but hey, it's a nice start.

[Coolsam]

Except the only thing that makes black claw "difficult" at all is the amount of HP the mini bosses and Elga have other than that it's an easy dungeon that isn't difficult at all and teaches you the importance of teamwork and manual dodging, even grogging can be done with just 2 non Ninja/Pally people if you pay attention.

I can believe you personally because I've seen groggy's with teams of 3-4 constantly. Of course if your good with manual dodging then defense isn't necessary but with that timer the main dps methods have to be done.

I can't agree with this entirely. I agree that the difficulty is just through highly mutliplied HP, but there remains the inability to deal the necessary DPS which is quite harshly handcuffed to all but a Ninja+Dragoon.

EDIT: Which, in keeping with the premise, is the point entirely. Upgraded HP--also seen at Red Fox Delta--is a pseudo-difficulty and not at all real. The problem with Elga would be severely undercut if the timer were removed, but would not eliminate the need for IM entirely either.

This I agree with. Red Fox Delta's final boss is @ 5m hp+ which is higher than Paris on Hero Drakos that is 13 levels higher + has Hero mode backing her.

The timer being removed yes would still need some IM use to provide faster killings with less deaths (attempting medals and such). It seems to be a best solution.

Edited by Coolsam, 21 March 2012 - 03:51 PM.

[Kazu731]

I'd appreciate serious posts without sarcasm if at all possible. I'd like to send a positive message.

@Nilla

I don't think the problem is readily available gear, it's moreso the method of obtainment. A random number generator supplemented almost entirely by Cash, and performed via repetition makes for a very stale sense of achievement. If it were more like Zauharants--and I am not saying the Zauharant process is perfect--the issue would be more balanced and everyone would have access, depending on the effort put in. To take it a step further, PvP achievement methods for certain gear would be an exciting idea, but I cannot begin to think of a method that is un-exploitable, not a "free handout" method (Points just for playing even if you lose -> "Here's a trophy just for trying your best"), and not just an amplified version of the CP system. I would like gear to be more accessible and through the means of effort, rather than willingness to Cash up and farm indefinitely.

[Maronu]

People like to try a game before investing money into it. The trail or free version of this game is daunting, overwhelming, and intimidating for anyone who wishes to be remotely competitive. I know I eventually found myself unable to keep up gear wise as a free player. I now no longer have any inclination or desire to attempt to do so. The reward simply isn't worth the effort required when all accomplishments that take days or months of grinding can be instantly achieved and overshadowed by any item mall spender who wishes to slap down a hundred dollars or two. =(

If gravity/barunson would only direct the game in an effort to create an enjoyable experience and balance the game between free players and cash spenders of every class, the community might prosper and grow. There would likely be increases in revenue as more free players who are satisfied with the game become hooked and decide that they would like to make the decision to invest money to further their enjoyment. I would imagine the free players are the backbone of a F2P game, making up the majority. And yet despite claims to the contrary, I feel as if nearly every subsequent event following the "Watch my ___ events" has served to further enforce the idea that Gravity only cares about selling instant victories to the highest spenders, while not actually giving a rats ass about the free community/majority. I am unsure how the game will continue to survive this way.

Perhaps if the people who ran the show actually played online games, they might realize that playing the game, grinding, sweat, and effort produces an actual feeling of accomplishment that is more meaningful then the simple claim of being able to dominate others. Perhaps they would see how insignificant the gaming experience becomes when dumping exuberant amounts of money into the game is the only reasonable method of obtaining success.

If things seem to be going poorly, perhaps it is because those in charge perceive that and insist upon trying to milk us for every penny, instead of listening to our desires and showing some respect and consideration for the maturity of the community.

"Oh, this cash item is doing pretty well. Lets put an even better one in the iM....Oh, that event went well. Lets do a whole bunch more just like it. Oh, this cash item isn't selling well. We better add in even more items to compensate!"

It just seems like Gravity wants more and more money, and there has to be somewhere were players draw the line. Spending money cannot be mandatory for fun. Gravity is purse-snatching our gaming experience, and it is pretty evident.

Or perhaps selling everything in the IM, including levels, and making this game autowin for cash spenders is a very successful strategy.

I don't know. Imho, less benefit from IM probably = more long term spending and overall satisfaction. Less = More... But I guess that's not a very intuitive concept for some people.

[Kazu731]

I agree. I am attempting the most positive view, however, as I find that my problem with these types of posts is generally that people treat the game and the company as an enemy. I'd rather treat the game in the manner best suited to the players--avoiding grandstanding and professing personal experience to help contribute to a better end.

Unfortunately, it seems I live in Candyland and that almost every single proposal or suggestion is valued at (1/2 x Dustmite). I'd like to think things are fix-able, however despairing the current state of things is. The imbalance between cash and non-cash players has been a long-held issue, and I believe that in my posts I only touched the tip of the iceberg by mentioning the most blatant non-PvP instance of this stratification (Fancy new word today, huh, Prinz?). I do realize changes take time, but I cannot help but be discouraged when, in spectacular succession, update after update brings disappointment. I am thankful for plentiful events and an active team--but I am also incredibly upset with the focal point being IM spending. I cannot repeat enough how frustrating it is to experience stale content, be encouraged to ignore content, be encouraged to buy rewards from content, and to then enjoy several months of an imbalanced endgame. I am not a PvP player so I cannot speak to that effect, but I can only think of more woes in terms of class balance and stat imbalance in that area of the game.

EDIT (AND A BIG EDIT IT IS):

I am also most annoyed at the level-skipping events. The Double Up event experienced some of the most severe community backlash I have seen in the history of the game. I hate to point fingers or call anyone out, so forgive me, but I took an active role in trying very hard to alert authorities to the general view on the event with as little bias as possible. I offered feedback on a subject I felt strongly required some, and I was told that my feedback was appreciated and taken into consideration. Ever since, I feel that I and the community have been slapped in the face through more and more of these IM-based events. If feedback was truly taken into consideration, I do not believe they would be piled on as high as they are.

Edited by Kazu731, 21 March 2012 - 05:48 PM.

[HavocInfinity]

The more money WP gets = more employees they can support = more player support, bug fixes, and new content put out = game does not die.
The more money WP charges = poor but competitive players diminish, but at least they spend time playing the PvE aspect for a while before realizing they cannot compete with IM buyers. Furthermore, it might have been assumed that these players would comfortably play against each other in a PvP setting. But there are some stacked players who like to build their ego by destroying players who are much less stacked than themselves, which discourages PvP for non-cash players. WP is doing its best to make available these non-cash players to have a chance in a competitive environment with events listed in the initial posts of this thread. It is a marketing strategy and overall it helps keep the game alive.

There were many that participate in these events, including the Double Up Event. I would argue that it doesn't result in accounts that do nothing. I highly doubt a normal person would drop $100 to double up a character and not play on that character. It encourages players to discover and play different classes with the hopes they will invest more $ to upgrade the gear for these characters. I honestly find this event more directed toward existing players who were growing bored of the available content. It would allow them to skip the boring parts that they had already gone though - speaking from experience, it IS very boring, having to do the same quests repetitively for eeach character - and get to the fun aspect of playing a different class. The uniqueness of each class really shines in this game and I believe the Double Up event was an awesome idea on WP's part. On the side, new players probably would not have participated in this event unless they were superduper rich... from 40+ its basically F7 grinding anyway, but prior to reaching that level I don't see players spending $100 with little knowledge of whether or not the game would be worth continuing to play.

Also, items like Paris Wings can still be earned by merit. Endless our of grinding will eventually grant you what you had the aim for. It is a gamer's preference obtain the wings by playing the game or by purchasing the item with money. There does exist players who have enough time and work ethic to accomplish this. What I find wrong about the IM is the insurance scrolls and other items that CANNOT be obtained by playing the game, but ONLY by paying IM or participating in events, which still places a restriction on the ability to obtain these items.

[Kazu731]

My and the general community's point, Thomas, is that playing the game is trying the class. If you are able to buy a free level 80 character, you are buying a character and skipping all content other than PvP. When I refer to "doing nothing" I refer to the imbalance at endgame where class bottlenecks usefulness. I fully realize the PvP community can take this in terms of experiencing new class playstyles, yet in overall arching content of the game--PvP included--I find that it in fact discourages people from doing anything but buying rewards. For a PvP example, someone may say that they "do not learn to play their class." For a PvE example, you are bypassing every single reason to play--defined as actually using skills, killing things, et cetera.

Insurances are another issue and I do agree--however, the problem I have with the items in gacha boxes, Paris Wings for example, is as I have listed. It is certainly available to be earned by merit and up to the player, but overwhelmingly the odds are stacked into an easier route's favor, and these easier routes are given a voice to say "Screw farming, buy me and have a chance at getting it" by introducing gacha boxes. This is in fact very similar to the Insurance situation, where an IM player is afforded the opportunity to get ahead without hard work (Except maybe at their occupation), and the non-IM player is left to deal with the status quo which I personally find to be incredibly unforgiving and luck-based.

[Ethernal]

Thanks for making this thread.

[MichyLee]

+1 for making this thread. I agree.

[HavocInfinity]

There is always the PvE aspect of playing the game, even if you do jump to level 80. You skip through all thea gearing up in the intermediate levels and just slap on gear that is appropriate for your level... ie skipping the lavalon runs and going straight to farming Paris, BD, or even just Velly for coin. Again, I highly doubt someone would put $100 into a character to let him by the side and not take a glance at experiencing PvE to a satisfying extent. imo, F7 itself is what kills the PvE of the game, given it serves more of a minigame than the only considerable method of leveling. So to stem from this, there barely is a difference in experiencing the game from level 40 to level 80 if all you are doing in between is grinding or gathering endgame gear, which is basically all that I do for my alt accounts. Yes, you skip lavalon, kundara, etc. but like I said, players who have already done these quests are reluctant to start a new class simply because the process is tedious and boring. New players are less likely to double up with uncertainty of whether their money is going to good use and will more than likely go through the whole process, therefore avoiding your point of "doing nothing". Furthermore, there is a large disparity between PvE and gameplay and PvP gameplay - I "don't know how" to play most of my characters because I do not PvP with them - honestly though, it doesn't matter how much PvE I go through. As a matter of fact, I play my destroyer better than my priest because I PvP with him more often than I do with my priest, but I have BARELY touched PvE with my destroyer, whereas the priest has been completely trampled by mobs.

I would agree that buying Paris Wings is much easier than farming for it, but that is my personal preference. You could spend 8 hours a day working at a mcdonalds and spend that cash to get your paris wings, or you can spend 8 hours a day farming for paris wings. Whichever appeals to you... and of course to me, I would rather work 8 hours at a mcdonalds because from the amount of money I get, it's faster. Besides, in my opinion, farming for Paris Wings is boring. But its my opinion, its not everybody else's, and my opinions are not to govern the state of the game or decisions of the gamemakers.

[Kazu731]

This is where I can see where you are coming from and then direct my complaints towards the existing content of the game. I would argue then, however, that time should be spent on creating a more satisfying game (I have agreed with all that you have said about content from 40-80) experience rather than skipping over it. To simplify, I find that progression is terribly lacking and instead of fixing the progression, they instead offer ways to skip progression for cash. This does cater very specifically to the group you've mentioned (I see it as the PvP group, feel free to say otherwise), but it is what I would call treating the symptom. Insofar that the inherent flaws are not only ignored, but capitalized upon on the very basis that they are dissatisfactory.

[Vanille]

I completely agree with Kazu, I really do.

[HavocInfinity]

In order to spend more time in making the game more satisfying, they need money. And of course, they are working on customer service first, fixing bugs and errors pointed out by players before they take the step in adding more content. Content has been added... slowly but surely (ie 4th job skills for dragonkin) but without using cash incentives to keep players playing, they cannot do this. And really the only way to obtain cash from players is to give them what they want... which is to skip over the boring parts of the game. And they barely spend much time making these gasha boxes... its relatively simple if the game has a strong foundation and structure. But I would agree that some events are time consuming and inefficient, such as the double up event was... but then again the rewards were handed out at such a slow pace, which demonstrates the clear divide in the work - game development clearly is not hampered by these events; Hastur's attention to the forums is.

[Miname]

In order to spend more time in making the game more satisfying, they need money. And of course, they are working on customer service first, fixing bugs and errors pointed out by players before they take the step in adding more content. Content has been added... slowly but surely (ie 4th job skills for dragonkin) but without using cash incentives to keep players playing, they cannot do this. And really the only way to obtain cash from players is to give them what they want... which is to skip over the boring parts of the game. And they barely spend much time making these gasha boxes... its relatively simple if the game has a strong foundation and structure. But I would agree that some events are time consuming and inefficient, such as the double up event was... but then again the rewards were handed out at such a slow pace, which demonstrates the clear divide in the work - game development clearly is not hampered by these events; Hastur's attention to the forums is.

I'm confused, are you a gamer, or a business major?

[HavocInfinity]

I'm a computer science & math major... I know nothing about business. I have played various f2p games with a cash shop and although this game follows the trend of most, it is no where close as being as bad as them when it comes to incentivizing players to spend. I initially found the double-up event ludicrous myself, but it is logically sound in this game, given the leveling process from 40-80 is just F7. There is also a strong uniqueness among the classes where as in other games the skills are different, but each class basically has some aoes, some stuns, some buffs, etc. but the gameplay is basically the same (with only minor differences). But comparing this to other games is straying from the topic... point is as much as WP seems to be making the game pay2win, (1) its commonplace in all f2p w/ cashshop, and (2) they are taking measures that lessen the effect as much as possible. Sacrifices have to made, and I support WP's method of doing it (with the exception of insurance scrolls and the like - but the implementation of professions somewhat helps their case).

[Kazu731]

Wow, this is a lot to take in. Well, here we go:

First off, I cannot tell if you are being insincere or not. The points you put out seem almost consistent with the "joke" post you made earlier. If you are being insincere--and I am not trying to invalidate your opinion by calling it trolling if you aren't--I have already asked kindly for sarcasm to be dropped. Otherwise, I'm going to respond seriously:

In order to spend more time in making the game more satisfying, they need money. And of course, they are working on customer service first, fixing bugs and errors pointed out by players before they take the step in adding more content. Content has been added... slowly but surely (ie 4th job skills for dragonkin) but without using cash incentives to keep players playing, they cannot do this. And really the only way to obtain cash from players is to give them what they want... which is to skip over the boring parts of the game. And they barely spend much time making these gasha boxes... its relatively simple if the game has a strong foundation and structure. But I would agree that some events are time consuming and inefficient, such as the double up event was... but then again the rewards were handed out at such a slow pace, which demonstrates the clear divide in the work - game development clearly is not hampered by these events; Hastur's attention to the forums is.

My first point is that I generally do not like these assumptions on company production. I see it as a fallacy because neither of us can confirm or deny precisely what the intentions are with profit from IM, nor can we see where it goes, when, why, or how. To respond specifically to what I've bolded in your post, this is a subject I feel sort of bad going into but it definitely needs to be mentioned: this game is seemingly riddled with bugs, translation errors and inconsistencies, lag issues, and overall "poor coding" (Check reference, need a computer major to back me up here!). Every single patch brings the risk of having your client broken (Here I point to the Technical Support forum, which booms with topics every Wednesday) and the need to re-install or re-patch. All NPCs speak poorly coordinated sentences with half-assed storylines that never go anywhere or bear any significance--if you can even read the darned things. Lag issue plague the higher end areas: Red Fox Delta, All element dungeons, Edge of the World, and Black Claw Nest to name a few. Bugged clients are most common in patching, but there seems to be a flaw associated with just about any update: markets breaking, screens breaking from a certain class (Teehee), and thankfully I cannot think of any more at the moment. The clear divide in the attention is another issue I find with these events: they have the capacity to install many IM-driven updates, and then rewards are handled poorly and slowly. I am not trying to beat on the company, but I find these all to be very dissatisying and it is not on only one occassion that I've seen players express disinterest due to the lack of polish--and using the word polish itself seems to be a grade too high, when the basic foundations are infested with problems.

As for content, I certainly see where you're coming from to a degree. It would be hypocritical to demand content be pushed out of the door every month, yet to bemoan existing problems. My problem with this, however, is that there is seemingly very little progress being made on any of these problems, and then when we do receive content, not only is it also usually bugged, but it is a poorly conceived system or idea (Professions; Black Claw Nest) that frustrate more players than they benefit.

I'm a computer science & math major... I know nothing about business. I have played various f2p games with a cash shop and although this game follows the trend of most, it is no where close as being as bad as them when it comes to incentivizing players to spend. I initially found the double-up event ludicrous myself, but it is logically sound in this game, given the leveling process from 40-80 is just F7. There is also a strong uniqueness among the classes where as in other games the skills are different, but each class basically has some aoes, some stuns, some buffs, etc. but the gameplay is basically the same (with only minor differences). But comparing this to other games is straying from the topic... point is as much as WP seems to be making the game pay2win, (1) its commonplace in all f2p w/ cashshop, and (2) they are taking measures that lessen the effect as much as possible. Sacrifices have to made, and I support WP's method of doing it (with the exception of insurance scrolls and the like - but the implementation of professions somewhat helps their case).

I also agree and have been, on occassion, the first to say that this Cash Shop is nowhere near as severe as other games. This is absolutely true--and I can think of many more games where the line is clearly drawn that if you are not a Cash user you are hardly a player. Given all of this, though, I do not think it is fair to create a system of leveling that--as you say--is "just F7" which is code for "incredibly boring and uninvolved," and then turn around and offer a bypass through the Item Mall. If there were serious concerns for those who feel uninspired to level, collaborative work would be done to ensure that the gameplay is engaging and exciting, rather than offering a complete leap over the problem. Insurances seem to be your biggest concern, but I would argue that they are only the most obvious form of noncash-cash player stratification. An example: instead of offering a gaming experience that requires any sort of effort or tactic, if you happen to be a ninja and your wallet is big enough to upgrade to +20, you get to be one of the few who can participate in the PvE endgame. Likewise, instead of offering an experience that is fulfilling and rewarding to get an item you'd like, if your wallet happens to be big enough you can buy a couple gamble attempts, or upgrade a cosmetic item, et cetera.

And on that note I'd like to mention the endgame again. It seems painfully obvious that there are three types of capped players, in my opinion:
1) The ones who enjoy PvPing all day. This is just fine and a very enjoyable practice (barring problems with balance), these players are typically very competitive and thus have an incentive to upgrade gear.

2) The ones who have upgraded and have the right friends who are the right classes with the right equipment. This speaks specifically to the current Rebellion guild (Please note, this isn't an attack on anyone, and I am in fact glad that at least some people get to enjoy the endgame), and the old Ascension guild. Prior to a certain Ninja's quitting, there was almost a two-handed monopoly on exclusively running this dungeon. Empire may or may not be included in this list.

3) The ones who enjoy PvE (or are simply bored of PvP), or may not like to PvP, and do not have these "right friends of the right class with the right equipment." This is the category I fall into, and I heavily believe it's one of the most painful feelings in the world. There is an endgame out there--but it is incredibly inaccessible and downright impossible, even for a moderate cash spender (Again, me)! This leads to the infamous AFKing in Port of the Winds, talking about all the things we cannot enjoy. This is basically purgatory.

The helplessness of those poor "3"s is only furthered by what I view as--aside from the extremely biased entrypoints of the dungeon--an unfulfilling and insulting endgame. Clearly, as someone with a Black Dragon Lord set or weapon will tell you, it takes time to farm these things. It was obviously intentionally worked out this way, to give a long-term effect of something to do for capped players. Whether it was by the one-entry-medal-a-day method, or simply by the coordination needed, not many players complete a whole piece in one night, let alone a whole set. This is what I see as a great thing. What I don't see as a great thing are, as I've stated, the poor rewards (Some sets for some classes, the weapons), the cash and class bias, and all that other good stuff.

I'd like to look at the endgame of prior chapters:

Now, to borrow Endbringer's words from a personal conversation (It isn't verbatim at all), chapter 1's endgame was Van Cliff Mansion. I was not high enough to enter this dungeon (I remember vividly being very pissy whilst I could have joined him, and he never ceases to remind me), there were some good and bad points about this dungeon.

Chapter 1
The good: the dungeon took time and cooperation (Well...) to complete. The rewards were a standard best (Everyone reveres Heirloom Bone Sets, at least with a sense of nostalgia), and it was an all around pretty equal playing field gear-wise.

The bad: the dungeon was one big open house nightmare of lag. One group could hog spawns and infinitely deprive others of entry. This was made worse when the channels were cut down from 10 to 5.

Chapter 2: Paris Strikes Back
We unfortunately barely experienced chapter 2 due to company jump. We did not receive this endgame until chapter 3 came about (Drakos Tower), however it seemed to provide little more satisfaction than Zauharant weapons and a great set for one class (Invokers). We had a pretty long period of nothing-to-do syndrome because Van Cliff Mansion also was not accessible. I am almost thankful for this, upon looking at the mess that was the first series of Drakos weapons.
We did, however, receive the updated Van Cliff and our ability to Job Change. This, I believe, is what kept people from tearing their hair out.

Chapter 3: Kryos Unleashed (I forgot the name...!)
The good: we got a level increase (And thus a race to cap event), Drakos Tower, and some new mission maps, and F7 mode. This was enough to keep everyone busy for a good while, and then the introduction of the Verdurous Forest update with the Hero versions of sets was also good for encouraging activity

The bad: F7 leveling was quickly exploited and just about every player got lazier in leveling. The mission maps did not reach all the way up to the cap's abilities. Professions quickly became a mess among the community.

And then we have Chapter 4: New Origin.

The good: limitations on F7 (Also a bad to an effect), new content sprinkled about, two new classes to try (perhaps a bad), and a new dungeon. (Taking into effect the Red Delta patch)

The bad: choppy, laggy dungeons with pseudo-difficulty, a worthless element dungeon, a VIP endgame boss. Summoner brings a potentially new slightly-tipped-towards overpowered class, and Fighters are more buggy than any other class.

To borrow Endbringer's words, which I agree with, the endgame in Chapter 1 was the most fruitful and put out the most reward for effort. The need for upgrades was also encouraged a bit more for Bone Dragon, but not severely limited to any one class or type of party. The sets were needed by all and all you needed to do was reach the right level and try. The problem with this was that all of the channels were controlled by a select few (Looking at you, Endbringer), which in itself is a type of barrier. On top of this, Van Cliff had tons of lag due to being open, so that may make it similar. Ultimately I find that the rewards were more... rewarding than Black Claw Nest (Obviously the stats are better in Black Claw Nest, but the "rewarding" part here derives from the usefulness and availability for the effort input).

EDIT: And while I do appreciate people saying they agree with me--especially you, Vanille<3--I would much prefer people stating their opinion and experience. It's fine if I've stolen the words out of your mouth with my beautiful eloquence, but discussion is best for feedback.

Edited by Kazu731, 22 March 2012 - 06:40 AM.