73 replies to this topic

[GrapefruitGod]

... you've got to be freaking kidding me. this kind of renders the entire revenge skill moot then. It's unnecessary.

Yeah the new summon has damage at basically sniping level. And it has homing attacks

[Jumpluffspore]

Yeah the new summon has damage at basically sniping level. And it has homing attacks

This was one class I really /really/ wanted to play but now I can't because it's broken. Just like dragoon.

[StormHaven]

Dark Knight is another thing on it's own. It's need a massive Duration nerf for what it can do.

[Jumpluffspore]

Dark Knight is another thing on it's own. It's need a massive Duration nerf for what it can do.

Say summoner skill is a different thing on its own
Brings mana burn into a damage reflection topic
???
Profit

[Coolsam]

He's not angry because of that. He's angry that you missed the point we've all been saying for the last page. I even went out of my way to italicize it for you.

Comic San's would've worked. Get's everyone's attention but in a negative way. But he's got a point.

And i know people who give up to easy when i see it. I don't see any major QQs around mana burn anymore and it's still a 1 button win for summoners.

Mana burn has a way around it. Launch the summoner and it hardly affects you till he hits the ground. By then you would've dashed away to prepare to catch him again.

This was one class I really /really/ wanted to play but now I can't because it's broken. Just like dragoon.

I know that feel.

Say summoner skill is a different thing on its own
Brings mana burn into a damage reflection topic
???
Profit

LOL


What everyone is screaming is; The fact it reflects the same way Paris does with PvE damage leading to instant OHKO's without effort. It pretty much takes the skill factor and just makes it walk around trying to wait for the opponent to hit your summons.

Summoners originally were balanced between the summons themselves and the magics of the summoner. This pretty much made it summon as many mobs as you can and wait for the reflection to happen. Ruining said balance and potentially making them harder to kill that Dragoon's and Any massive defense mage w/ slow heal and damage drop.

And as for BSQ and EW, this is a terrible titan of a situation due to limited movement space unlike the vastness of pvp arena's (Labyrinth of Mystery everyone's favorite).

I understand the fact summons are walking punching bags sometimes (Excluding the 4th job one and the Golgon due to their pretty effective powers). But the solution wasn't make summons virtually immortal. Even the damage you can hit on a summon before death isn't enough to kill. Especially higher leveled ones. It's hardly a scratch sometimes because Summoners have passives and such to increase the stats of the familiars (I say familiars cause well Summoning in Runescape pretty much burned "Summoners summon familiars" in my head).

I wanna see how this is being discussed in other servers.

[epifanes]

Sorry no, revenge skills are just not necessary. The only effective counter you've presented was a priest, and in a "mass" pvp, all the summoner's team has to do is gank the priest and it's gg. The reflection of pve damage is absolute competitive trash.

It's not the ONLY effective counter, though priest is probably the MOST effective one. I'm not really sure about what classes go to mass PvP on this server, but we in EU have several hp/def stacking unkillable priests (with meteor earrings on top of it) in every Battlesquare, and these people are bigger problem than revenging summoners. As said above, both archer classes are pretty helpful against it, same with the fighter. Also, minions' AI is frankly very low, so you can lure them away from the summoner simply by moving around - the Gather skill to call them back isn't always working correctly.

Today in Battlesquare I saw a summoner making it to where he had nothing but a literal 6-10 group mob of summons surrounding him at all times. It was those weaker summons that you can mass-summon up. Summoners are now pretty much depending on it. Ok props that it ignores evade but seriously filling up every single summon slot so you have like 8-9 summons in a circle around you like a CIA horde around a President?

I believe the solution is to give summons hp/damage in a sort of pvp based thing. Like have thier hp lowered and other players deal damage like in pvp only. For this to be fair (since all summons have 0 defense virtually.) give them some pvp only defenses so we don't kill ourselves hitting upto several hundred's of thousands of damage. But instead at the most it probably takes down about half or a third of our hp.

Granted this isn't an easy one to do, not to mention probably has several flaws.

I like summoners at first, especially when it went from a 5-6 group of summons to mainly a Golgon and 1-2 others that give buffs and assist you. But the damage reflection will eventually have everyone making and rapid leveling summoners.

Just to clarify - you can have maximum of 7 summons at once, but casting the one-point ones (mist and dyke) takes a while because of cooldowns, so you can always try to kill the summoner before he has his full army out.

As for the solution, I think it should be defined as the Pain Division skill, but reversed - that is, it would reflect half of the actual damage taken due to the gap between PvE HP of the summon and PvP HP of the player. I don't think other solutions are possible because it would require to redefine summons to PvP standards, and that can actually make it even more imbalanced.

Also, I'm not fearing that everyone would go and rapid lvl a summoner now - with too many summoners, there would be no damage to reflect as basic attacks like Snare Shot are not being reflected at all (not sure how it is with minion-on-minion damage reflection ). Actually, from my experience (in our Bsquare), the only OHKO skills are Woodrush and Blizzard, because these deal massive dmg over certain period and can not be cancelled, so gg if there is a Golgon in the way.

[Maronu]

This I agree with.

Counter-able? Well depends on the summoner himself/herself. Some don't use familiars, others use only a Golgon and maybe another for help,

If there's no counter then the best are some checks. Where it can only depend on chance and skill at the time. Like it's been discussed some classes can get around this and there may be openings to where anyone can get the summoner.

Today in Battlesquare I saw a summoner making it to where he had nothing but a literal 6-10 group mob of summons surrounding him at all times. It was those weaker summons that you can mass-summon up. Summoners are now pretty much depending on it. Ok props that it ignores evade but seriously filling up every single summon slot so you have like 8-9 summons in a circle around you like a CIA horde around a President?

I believe the solution is to give summons hp/damage in a sort of pvp based thing. Like have thier hp lowered and other players deal damage like in pvp only. For this to be fair (since all summons have 0 defense virtually.) give them some pvp only defenses so we don't kill ourselves hitting upto several hundred's of thousands of damage. But instead at the most it probably takes down about half or a third of our hp.

Granted this isn't an easy one to do, not to mention probably has several flaws.

I like summoners at first, especially when it went from a 5-6 group of summons to mainly a Golgon and 1-2 others that give buffs and assist you. But the damage reflection will eventually have everyone making and rapid leveling summoners.

And the Developers lack of caring I may actually give ya that one. But atm I felt like they were rushed with summoner/fighter 4th jobs. And if they do care we won't see any changes till the next major patch where most new skills and skill changes take place.

Overall, it'll eventually have to be nerfed. But hey it's a class balance issue and we all know it takes half of forever for those to happen in MMO's (Not just Dragonica/Dragon Saga).

I just wanted to point out that summoners have a skill that reduces their cooldowns based upon the number of different summons they have out, and that is one of the main reasons you see summoners using a bunch of weak summons instead of the golgon.

And for the people saying counter it, or get in and attack the summoner (I already see some major problems with that, but lets just assume you could get in on a summoner and somehow keep it locked and kill it in before it could escape and reset or reverse the scenario) just go ahead and imagine three summoners working together with all their summons out and revenge on. That sounds like a minefield. Does any class have skills precise and powerful enough to kill in a field that has 21+ bombs in a small area?

What are you going to do? Attack with a team of priests? Okay, maybe that could work as a counter, but get a few summoners on the same team and you've already neutralized most of the cast without even having to do anything.

I mean, a summoner can use a lvl 1 weapon, and still kill and disable other players without a problem. Are we supposed to pvp with only two classes in this game?

Edit: I picked up this class early, but I'm disappointed that it is now this powerful. I do not want to play the same class as everyone else. Nerf please.

Edited by Maronu, 26 March 2012 - 08:54 PM.

[Jumpluffspore]

My main problem with this is that damage reflection on the summoned target pretty much guarantees a reduced cooldown which should be able to be damaged. Instead-- you've presented timed walking buff bombs that if you try to disable to gain an advantage, you end up hurting yourself. It's an unbalanced game and it stripped any skill necessary to play the class. This can be a great and dynamic class, but it needs work to balance it. This mindset of making summoner ridiculously powerful to try and balance out against other classes doesn't work. It turns pvp from pvp and into rock paper scissors.

[Rimmy]

I suspect this may be one of those cases where a change was pushed through that will be balanced out by later changes to other classes that haven't made it yet. IIRC, there was an indication from the developers that we might receive some class/skill/stat balance changes sometime in Q1 2012 (I'm assuming they probably meant Q1 of their fiscal year and not the calendar year).

In all honesty, I wouldn't be surprised if this step in the process (giving summoners an OP skill and some time in the spotlight) is part of encouraging more players to try the class and invest in summoner characters. Both dragonkin classes suffered from a slow start of sorts (especially in our server) when it came to being picked up by the community, because (generally speaking), up until this point, they've been sort of underpowered relative to the long-established human classes (except in the case of dragonkin bugs which could prove OP but were later fixed). I'm not too surprised that major changes and level-up events are being used to "sell" the classes and try to pump some life into them at this stage, before human classes receive another round of changes that will likely drive player interest toward them, instead.

EDIT: I should clarify, this is all speculation on my part, based on the bits and pieces of info we were given last year after we had the balance summit.

Edited by Rimmy, 27 March 2012 - 10:59 AM.

[HavocInfinity]

Maybe they will buff up classes to do tons of damage so priest heals won't be so looked down upon.
But I do think Summoners have a large advantage with the reflect skill. Classes that use a single-target approach at eliminating their enemies (such as ninjas) are less affected than those using AoE skills (namely Sorcs, Rogues, Pathfinders, and Myrms). Paladins aren't too badly affected since they can (and should) safely use their storm blades. Using other grounded skills such as Spear Jab risks getting attacked by summons, which becomes a larger problem for Destroyers trying to pull off a snipe, since they stand for longer and get get interrupted when attacked.

[tainguyen]

so um... mana burn isnt a prob anymore? i havent pvped a shaman that uses it anymore, doesnt look like they would need it either....

[Frank1e]

I find it funny how this topic is because some people lack the skill to work around something that is working as intended. Almost like complaining about healers that heal during battle.

[Jumpluffspore]

I find it funny how this topic is because some people lack the skill to work around something that is working as intended. Almost like complaining about healers that heal during battle.

It's not working as intended, no amount of skill is going to beat out high defense+slow heal. It seems like you don't know how to play the game. If a high-tier myrmidon can be beaten by /sitting/ there is a problem. Last time I checked, pvp shouldn't allow you to win if you stay in one location and don't actively cast anymore skills once you summon a few monsters.
Again, I'd invite you do reconsider your comparison of healers that heal during battle.

[HavocInfinity]

so um... mana burn isnt a prob anymore? i havent pvped a shaman that uses it anymore, doesnt look like they would need it either....

Mana Burn isn't as useful as you would think it is. People can just use pots. All it does is annoy the enemy, and besides, its a nuisance to throw up every 30 or so seconds.

[StormHaven]

Mana Burn isn't as useful as you would think it is. People can just use pots. All it does is annoy the enemy, and besides, its a nuisance to throw up every 30 or so seconds.

I think he was trying to point out when mana burn came up the same people said more or less
" summoner only has to press 1 skill to auto win no class can beat it cause you run out of mana instantly" and now everyones just like meh mana burn w/e just gonna get out of the way.

now on topic the only thing that makes Summoner Revenge "OP" is because summons take pve dmg. If it wasn't for revenge the summoners new CD buff would basicly be useless because you could still take out their summons no trouble at all this actually gives them a fighting chance. If you're going to complain about then at least think of everything that makes the said skill "broken" . Summons from the start should've had increased def in pvp, lowered health, and take pvp damage, if they would've had that from the start then revenge wouldn't have been a problem because you wouldn't ohko yourself.

Edited by StormHaven, 28 March 2012 - 03:26 PM.

[GrapefruitGod]

All but one summoner I've played with has no idea what they're doing.
And that isn't saying much because I've only seen maybe 4, or was it 5?, probably 4 summoners at a high level.

Mana burn is still a stupid skill, but now summoners have even stupider skills that people pay more attention to them instead. You know, like when everyone forgot about spin it bear?
Wait, nevermind. I keep forgetting who I'm talking to. There's cancer here, bye

[Endbringer]

All but one summoner I've played with has no idea what they're doing.
And that isn't saying much because I've only seen maybe 4, or was it 5?, probably 4 summoners at a high level.

Mana burn is still a stupid skill, but now summoners have even stupider skills that people pay more attention to them instead. You know, like when everyone forgot about spin it bear?
Wait, nevermind. I keep forgetting who I'm talking to. There's cancer here, bye

Cancer is everywhere here.

[Maronu]

I think he was trying to point out when mana burn came up the same people said more or less
" summoner only has to press 1 skill to auto win no class can beat it cause you run out of mana instantly" and now everyones just like meh mana burn w/e just gonna get out of the way.

now on topic the only thing that makes Summoner Revenge "OP" is because summons take pve dmg. If it wasn't for revenge the summoners new CD buff would basicly be useless because you could still take out their summons no trouble at all this actually gives them a fighting chance. If you're going to complain about then at least think of everything that makes the said skill "broken" . Summons from the start should've had increased def in pvp, lowered health, and take pvp damage, if they would've had that from the start then revenge wouldn't have been a problem because you wouldn't ohko yourself.

Summoners have the "pain division" skill. With how that skill currently works, if summons hp was significantly lowered, the skill would make the summons get killed off when the summoner is attacked

Overall, the solution you mentioned seems pretty decent though. We don't need "pain division" and if the devs feel that we do, they could always just make the summons take .5 or x1 damage instead of x2.

[Existed]

I don't know about others, but my summoner is able to retain energy circulation buff even after my summons are gone. With that in mind, I'm able to spam spell prison and rolling stone with a movement speed set. While I have all the summons chase around the person with the attack command. And more than likely they'll kill themselves when they trigger the counterattack eventually. = win

[Frank1e]

It's not working as intended, no amount of skill is going to beat out high defense+slow heal. It seems like you don't know how to play the game. If a high-tier myrmidon can be beaten by /sitting/ there is a problem. Last time I checked, pvp shouldn't allow you to win if you stay in one location and don't actively cast anymore skills once you summon a few monsters.
Again, I'd invite you do reconsider your comparison of healers that heal during battle.

Aight so im going to speak to you in a linguo you understand:
If some folks have 64k attack and gets schooled by a summoner, its a summoner thats glitched. Do i have that right? Naw dude, sounds like someone found a counter to whatever it is that you were doing homie. Also sounds like you need a new strategy. Try not to blindly attack anymore noob. Unless this is the first pvp oriented game you've played, then i guess its all you know how to do.

[zabmaru]

Aight so im going to speak to you in a linguo you understand:
If some folks have 64k attack and gets schooled by a summoner, its a summoner thats glitched. Do i have that right? Naw dude, sounds like someone found a counter to whatever it is that you were doing homie. Also sounds like you need a new strategy. Try not to blindly attack anymore noob. Unless this is the first pvp oriented game you've played, then i guess its all you know how to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5E7feJHw0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5E7feJHw0

[Frank1e]

LOL

[Coolsam]

Aight so im going to speak to you in a linguo you understand:
If some folks have 64k attack and gets schooled by a summoner, its a summoner thats glitched. Do i have that right? Naw dude, sounds like someone found a counter to whatever it is that you were doing homie. Also sounds like you need a new strategy. Try not to blindly attack anymore noob. Unless this is the first pvp oriented game you've played, then i guess its all you know how to do.

Have you played Myrm? Or any class specializing in AoE's?
Have you faced Summoners who know how to abuse this reflect system? As in with 6+ monsters?
Have you known what it usually took to kill an 16k+ Defense person w/o a +20? One with massive hp to back him/her?

Well let me answer those for you:

If you played any class who's grand majority of skills comprise of hitting upto 16+ targets in a certain area, Imagine trying to hit around said summoner with everything constantly surrounding him/her.

If you faced Summoners who know how to use this reflect the right way, you know of the difficulty in strategy against it. No perfect counters, just a solid check which doesn't work 100% of the time.

Anything with massive defense combined with massive hp even with +20 and good CD can do quite a bit of tanking. Combined with actual pvp skill, well you are facing a nightmare. So obviously seeing that die in 1 hit with the person just standing there not even moving from the spawn point is ridiculous.

[Jumpluffspore]

Aight so im going to speak to you in a linguo you understand:
If some folks have 64k attack and gets schooled by a summoner, its a summoner thats glitched. Do i have that right? Naw dude, sounds like someone found a counter to whatever it is that you were doing homie. Also sounds like you need a new strategy. Try not to blindly attack anymore noob. Unless this is the first pvp oriented game you've played, then i guess its all you know how to do.

You're cute. You should have my children. I want 18 by next week.