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Renewal: Update Fixed Casting to jRO's modification PLEASE.


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#76 Kadelia

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 10:16 AM

I just find it funny, if not ironic, that when the AV discussion first came around on iRo Wiki's kRO Renewal testers, they were all saying how it's balanced because you can eventually get it to around under 1 second. But the thing is, they were testing it on a 140+ Wanderers with almost max stats lol. As a Gypsy/Minstre (the ones who will really use AV because Maestros/Wanderers have SRainstorm), even going full dex/int still makes for a painfully slow casting time.


Yeah. This is the same logic fallacy I was having a problem with with that lethaljoker guy too. AV's cast time is "OK" at best on a Wanderer with 180 DEX and 140 INT, especially if the GMs here truly lowered the fixed casting to 0.35. But, seriously? Wanderers level with Severe Rainstorm, not with AV. And even <1sec kind of sucks because that is not usable in WoE. A moderate (read: not powerful) attack you can use while equipped for WoE (whip, chorus skills) would be extremely fair. A 6x-99 Gypsy has an abyssmal cast time with AV since they're looking at < 80 base INT and < 100 base DEX more than likely, and even so, the cast time is just plain abysmal and makes soloing without AGI impossible.

Removing the fixed portion and perhaps halving the base time would mean that Gypsies can cast at decent speed and Wanderers can come close to or actually get instant, thus giving you a sense of advancement, and giving them a useful damage skill to use with a shield again in WoE, so that its not a huge step backwards from pre-renewal.

Edited by Jaye, 18 October 2010 - 11:56 AM.

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#77 Akin

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 11:23 AM

I'm more inclinded to agree now that I've been grinding on a Maestro.

Bash, DS, and Mammo. All are 1st class attack skills. And all do more damage than Melody Strike/Sling Arrow, which is a 2nd class skill and the ONLY attack skill Bards/Dancers get until they trans or change to their 3rd class. Each of those skills has no cast time and a delay only equal to the animation delay of the character's ASPD. Melody Strike and Sling Arrow sould be the same. With SR requiring a bow, the relatively weak damage of Metallic Sound, the poor precision of Reverberation, and the loooong 10 second delay of Great Echo, it's still the only viable attack skill while performing a second class song, which we'll still always be doing even as a 3rd class performer.

Melody Strike/Sling Arrow should have no cast time.

As for AV, my concern is more for what happens after the reset npcs are taken out. If a new player, or players who haven't reached 3rd class by then decide they don't want to get AGI (to help SR damage), or decide they don't even want SR (or Great Echo) in order to get more chorus skills, then they are forced to pay for a skill reset after they used the skill to level (Exp sharing really sucks now), and can get no stat reset if they did happen to get AGI. Besides, AV, even with instant cast is far worse than 3rd class attack skills, but at least we can use instruments/whips with it. Let us use it as intended by kRO when the skill was first created with trans bards/dancers. Using bows sucks...

Arrow Vulcan should have no cast time.

Look for a thread by me soon listing suggestions on polishing up the whole performer skill set.
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#78 Kadelia

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 11:59 AM

How much does AGI affect Severe Rainstorm damage?
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#79 Clogon

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 02:57 PM

@Jaye:
Severe Rainstorm formula = (40*s.lvl+dex+agi/5)%*j.lvl/100

I agree that Archer's should not have any fixed casting time. They were BUILT in pre RO to be able to instantly cast their skills and to make up for this all of their skills that have casting time also has a lengthy after cast delay of at least 1s. They all could get 150 Dex easily and yet instead of nerfing their dex gain, transing gave them more dex and better dex gears were created.

However I disagree with removing the fixed casting time of of all skills across the board like jRO. Spiral Pierce is so Broken on jRO, Instant cast Spiral + Gloomy Shyness + Strings = unstoppable DPS. Due to this, jRO is now being called RK online by its players. <.<

Edit:
Reasons why:

Arrow Repel:
This one I actually don't care if it has some fixed casting (since my class has Phantasm Arrow which is instant cast and does the same thing...) but a full 1.5s fixed casting makes this skill useless. This skill is only used for the purpose of knocking an opponent away to save either yourself or a party member. Why would ANYONE use a skill that requires 1.5s instead of the many instant cast knockback skills?


Focus Arrow strike:
A very weak skill with the current fixed casting time. Because of the 1s Fixed casting time (Notice how it is 50% and not 20% of total casting time <.<) and the 1.5s after cast delay, the dps is horrid compared to Arrow Shower which does 250% every second. Comparing the DPS you have:

FAS: 450% AoE damage that requires aiming and positioning every 2.5s + variable casting time (You won't get instant cast during your Sniper stage)
Arrow Shower: 250% AoE damage that can knock back the mob for protection every 1s (unreducable animation time)

So FAS does maximum 180% (252% IF you have 100 Crit on the monsters) every second when you have no variable casting time vs Arrow Shower's 250% every second that does not requite anything other than the skill itself.


Windwalk:
This skill is not a very strong buff and there is absolutely no reason why it should have fixed casting time. +5 flee is negligible compared to AoE buffs that casts faster and have way better effects.

Blitz Beat and FA:
These skill's have 1s and 1.5s After cast delay respectively. They do lower damage than Arrow Shower and DS while costing more SP. Once you are a Ranger you can't even use these skills since Warg's are so much better PVM. Why do these skill have fixed casting time?


Melody Strike:
Yes this skill does not have aftercast delay BUT 2nd and trans performers CANNOT get instant cast from stats solo anymore! Even in a party they will NEED the new and rare Genetic foods and invest MASSIVELY into Int. If you are still worried about this skill having no hard coded delay then just put a 0.1s after cast delay just like you did to Double Strafe but this skill is already weaker than DS with only 260% damage compared to 190%*2 (380%).


Arrow Vulcan:
This skill already has the 1s after cast to prevent it from being exponential. Even if a trans performer gets 150 dex and 100 int, they would still have 1-squareroot([Dex+Int/2)/265)~=13% variable casting time. AV has 3.8s total casting time so a trans performer that invested into high dex and int to get 100 int and 150 dex would still have 0.13*3.8=0.49s of casting! Even when they become 3rd classes, reducing all variable casting time through stats is very difficult! If they invest 120 base INT and 120 base Dex, they would still require MASSIVE amounts of stat buffs like genetic foods, Kafra foods and/or Battle Chant! Without stat buffs, they would only get at most 140 int and 170 dex which is still 1-squareroot([180+150/2)/265)~=4.8% variable casting time. Small? Yes, but casting time none the less and at GREAT stat point cost too leaving only enough room for 80 of another stat at base level 150.


Edit2:
Please do not be like GungHo who misinterpreted the jRO player complaints about Archers skills having fixed casting time as a representation for every 2nd and trans skill. Fixed casting is needed, yes. But getting no variable casting time is almost impossible on 2nd and trans chars and the skills above are nowhere as powerfull as Zen (Allows quick recharge of GF), Energy Coat (Reduces ALL damage by up to 30%) and Spiral Pierce (Capable of doing 150k when buffed without any god items!). And the skills above are easily rendered obsolete with our new 3rd class skills.

Edited by Clogon, 18 October 2010 - 03:56 PM.

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#80 Puppet

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 07:30 PM

we traded a unbalanced game that was playable, for Renewal which just as much unbalanced if not more and less player friendly? I mean really do they think some one that played 5+ years wants to re-learn again the game they been playing for 5+ year all causes some not so bright Dev's decided to change the entire structure of the the game, in a attempt to bring life back to game.

Fix cast while had reason. did not need to be slaped on to every damn skill specialy if doing so would nerf that skill so bad it be come useless Like AV,FAS I mean really forcing use to use phens to just cast our attacks on class that was never ment to really need to use phens? When trans class start using the first class and 2nd class skills to level cause there trans skill are so usless, one has to think who the dumb ass was that though about half these changes. Renewal imo would worked great if it was for a new game not 8+ year old game, with balance,performance,bug issues.

Edited by Puppet, 18 October 2010 - 07:37 PM.

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#81 Kadelia

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 01:01 AM

It is so dumb to have first job skills out damage 2nd class and trans class skills.
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#82 Clogon

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 02:06 AM

On a Ranger, they even out damages our 3rd class skills except traps!!! :P
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#83 Akin

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 06:47 AM

While that is sad but true for the Archer class, I do like how 1st class skills don't become completely worthless as a character progresses. It works poorly for Archers because DS can provide better DPS than 2nd, trans, and 3rd class bow skills. The best model for how to do this right, however, is in Bash. Bash is weaker DPS than basically all 2nd, Trans, and 3rd class swordsman skills, but it remains viable because it has a chance to stun.
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#84 Kadelia

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 07:56 AM

While that is sad but true for the Archer class, I do like how 1st class skills don't become completely worthless as a character progresses. It works poorly for Archers because DS can provide better DPS than 2nd, trans, and 3rd class bow skills. The best model for how to do this right, however, is in Bash. Bash is weaker DPS than basically all 2nd, Trans, and 3rd class swordsman skills, but it remains viable because it has a chance to stun.


Hunters get steadily stronger with DPS as they move from archer to hunter then to sniper. DS itself gains major DPS from hunter to sniper thanks to falcon eyes. Gypsy and Dancer are just super archers with some support skills that are no longer too useful 1-99.

Bash is completely outclassed by Bowling Bash and Pierce and is in turn outclassed by Clashing Spiral and Hundred Spear now. Its not that useful for its chance to stun, but not useless either. How come bash doesn't have a fixed time cast bar? Why does Slinging arrow have a cast bar but not double strafe? I will tell you why. Because an archer 1x-5x would have too low of DEX to make use of double strafe if it had a cast bar. Slinging Arrow was determined to start with a character that already has 90+ dex and to be quite useable as long as it had a low base cast time, and show some room for improvement with JUST dex (as opposed to aspd) so continuing to develop your dex would help your DPS. Room for growth without the skill being unusable. Its funny how there was thought put into these skills as they were developed, but as the new sweeping system came in, gravity got really lazy and made as quick of a pass as possible at re-balancing skills after the renewal cast time changes.
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#85 Akin

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 08:34 AM

Well hopefully, iRO staff will pass this along to kRO, or simply use their right to localize and make changes their playerbase wants to see made.
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#86 Kadelia

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 06:03 AM

Heimdallr's most recent renewal maint post mentioned they were still considering skill changes. Hopefully there is some room for discussion on the table with the archer skills still for localization.
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#87 Prodigy

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 06:18 AM

I finally decided to take a break from the ever amazing Sorcerer class and decided to 3rd job my Gypsy. Uhm. . . yeah. . . I got a skill that does ~40% the damage of a Clashing Spiral from an RK of equal level (I was doing 10k AV on Magmarings, CS averages around 25k), but my skill takes ~2 times longer to cast, and has a 1.5 times longer aftercast delay (3 seconds AV, 2 seconds CS). Never mind the pathetically low damage and the insanely long aftercast delay, I just want this thing to be instant cast! Besides, I'm gonna stop using it eitherway as soon as I get Severe Rainstorm. Just think about all those poor non-99 Gypsies!

Edited by Prodigy, 20 October 2010 - 06:19 AM.

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#88 Kadelia

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 07:34 AM

it is pathetic how low AV's damage is, now :P

On Ygg, I leveled on grand peco and goats up to level 85 or so, which was decent EXP, since I could 1 shot them with AV. I had a full INT/DEX build and used DEX foods (~154 DEX, ~75 int). I tried moving on to stapo, but unfortunately could not one shot them. Seems I would need an extremely ideal weapon (read: double kingbird queen's whip) in order to 1 shot them. This was quite unfortunate as it created a gap in effective leveling with AV for someone who doesn't have like BSB, wildcat, bow thimbles, etc twinking out their mediocre skill's damage. The slow cast time made moving onto aggro monsters impossible.

In the end I switched back to an AGI DS build. Leveling much, much faster 2 shotting harpies with DS.

Edited by Jaye, 20 October 2010 - 07:35 AM.

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#89 Prodigy

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 08:12 AM

I would need an extremely ideal weapon (read: double kingbird queen's whip) in order to 1 shot them.

Not to mention how stupidly rare Queen's Whip is compared to the male counterpart, Oriental Lute Guitar, both of why are much harder to obtain than Hunting Spear. (Damn you CS!). Might I ask what weapon were you using to AV with? All I had was a +7 Triple Kingbird Whip of Balance (but that's Ymir so lol)
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#90 Kadelia

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 08:23 AM

+5 Rante [0] :P

I have one archer skel card but don't want to waste it on an NPC whip such as a Whip[1]. Even so, that probably won't be sufficient damage to 1 shot them. I do like 7300 and they have 8800 HP. With an archer skel I might do 8000. Tri kingbird WoB if I had to take a wild guess at the damage... I'd guess around... 9000 damage? IS that what you do?

Edited by Jaye, 20 October 2010 - 08:24 AM.

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#91 Prodigy

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 11:59 AM

I do like 10.1k at Magmarings, but that's with 99 base dex, double bow thimbles and the Dying Swan headgear. So much +%ranged damage, yet so little damage :P
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#92 Kadelia

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 01:52 AM

my guess was pretty good then if you're wearing around +10% of ranged damage :)
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