77 replies to this topic

[Coolsam]

Stop taking pot shots at each other or I'm locking the topic.

Regarding my old post. I stated after the balance update if he can pull that off in another 5-0 with more even opponents (I stated if the 2nd myrm was closer in gear/skill to the tougher one) he would most likely be the best summoner in WarpPortal server. I also stated he was capable of tanking which most summoners I faced could not. In a way he's a good summoner.



Also to those listing the perm 50-60's like JigglyBuff, technically they can do the most without the advantages of 4th job skills. So a good perm can be on the list. That's why I'm agreeing if I see JigglyBuff or another perma in there if I've seen them pvp.

[JoeKim]

Dat's right guyyyss!! Let's not have flames here aite??

Anyway, these are certainly great players u guys have listed. I think the discussion should shift to WHY they're as good as they are; Explaining how their combos and build works so that other players may be influenced by their gameplay. Of course there aren't many styles of people pvpin bcuz most of the combos we use are much of the same, but if u do notice then pleeeease note it

Although this may be a controversial topic shift too..

Edited by JoeKim, 17 April 2012 - 01:38 PM.

[Rimmy]

Personally, I've always felt that the best PvPers are the ones who know how to play effectively as part of a team, but since there are so many different possible class combinations for teams and some are far better than others, it's hard to judge sometimes. I like working with players who focus on defense -- using locks and skills to disable opponents, laying traps (not just PF traps, but setups), preventing extended combos on teammates with interrupts, etc.

[Monyot]

Anyway, these are certainly great players u guys have listed. I think the discussion should shift to WHY they're as good as they are; Explaining how their combos and build works so that other players may be influenced by their gameplay.

While I hope PvP in this game is more lively, i think explaining their combo/build is being disrespectful to them. Telling why i think they are good.

Of course there aren't many styles of people pvpin bcuz most of the combos we use are much of the same, but if u do notice then pleeeease note it

Disagree. There are many possibilties using your own class and most great player has their own style.

On topic, personally i will think they are good in PvP when they are able to use the strong points of their class, controlling it well, and they learn from experience. It is included that they:

• are not being stereotype. They have their own unique style/build (using skill not like most people do or most people don't notice they can actually use that skill for that purpose).
• can adapt to many situations
• don't depends on something (1 or 2 skills, combo, gears, stat like evade).
• don't lock
• Can "read" the opponent and use it to their advantage
• etc etc... (synonim of being skillful)

Now i just hope this thread won't be locked

EDIT: I am talking about 1 vs 1, not group pvp.

Edited by Monyot, 17 April 2012 - 02:29 PM.

[Coolsam]

I wanna give this thought out to ya'll. Mostly because I feel as though it would get people thinking. No one flame this post. Or delete because it isn't flaming, or calling anyone out.

This "Who's the best of each class?" We make these lists based on mostly who we've pvp'ed out of everyone, their gear+skill combination, and how they went up in both 1v1 and team. What I'm saying is these lists were made based on our opinions. Though we can agree a certain person is listed and many people would agree, then that's good because it's agreed on. I consider myself top 10 Myrms/Overlords based on a combo of gear, skill, and effectiveness in a team. The Myrm's I listed, I've had a chance to fight. And to be honest, most of them I wanna fight again because it's fun to fight them. Anyone who's listed Miyakozuka can agree she can be quite the challange.

I feel this question came up too early. We've already stated what is and what isn't "cheap" about each class. Also bear in mind in the summer is our "balance" update. As well as our new "combo" skill things. When these are added, pvp will have a big change and it may put more skill into a deciding factor than gear.

Also about the points Monyot stated;

are not being stereotype. They have their own unique style/build (using skill not like most people do or most people don't notice they can actually use that skill for that purpose).

This is a tough one. Gear build-wise, everyone goes for similar gear. Mostly by seeing a pro's gear set-up and doing research. Skill-tree; People look towards the professionals for this. Or trial and error till something good. Combo's; trial and error plus looking towards pro's yet again.

can adapt to many situations

This IMO, is an agree-able statement. Reaction to anything, even unexpected and knowing all situations possible in pvp. The best may be looked towards experience. A guy who's fought every class who uses every known combo 100+ times each can know what to do and how to do it better than a guy who's hardly Pvp.

don't depends on something (1 or 2 skills, combo, gears, stat like evade).

This is a difficult one. All I can say is, it's based on class.

don't lock

They never put any known restriction on locking. Ok spamming AAS lowered damage down to virtually nothing. But any other method of locking never get's punished with lowered damage in the same way. Again, this is based on class. A WM's difficulty to catch in 1on1 you could see a lock coming. But other classes you can debate how dependent on a lock would they be. Like End and Nilla have said; "if your stupid enough to walk into it, you deserve to get locked." But keep in mind they have ways to ensure the catch and you'd get locked. Regarding sniping, if the gren flinched up a target with gatling or multishot, then threw the flashbang. Then the flash would catch due to flinching from the previous attack. Leading you open for a snipe.

Can "read" the opponent and use it to their advantage

Keep friends close, and rivals closer? I assume you mean, do research on how'd that class could pvp effectively, research their main stats and problem skills, practice against the classes, and even examine equips? Then yea this is true. The best pvp'ers know every class. Like I stated, the more you fight a certain class, the more you can see them coming.

[GrapefruitGod]

Please don't quote me out of context.

[Coolsam]

Please don't quote me out of context.

Nilla Please!

[ChaosIntel]

It seems that skill plays a major role in every form of competition. The way how Rim views how PvP in Dragon Saga should be handled is based on preference but many or few may agree. We each have our own ways of dealing with things due to individual preferences but overall we should not disagree with each other in such small terms. Ultimately, it is detrimental to the fact that we are arguing over who is more stronger than how skill-based this game is. In my judgmental opinion, i think the gameplay is quite fair and fun in terms of both PvE and PvP. I agree with Rim that the locks and stuns are a major part of the game as well as defensive tactics, but also prediction plays a major factor. The pinpoitning of names and who is "best" at this game is all based on practice and personally, i think they are really good but overall we shouldn't point out names but instead just show videos in order to show how well PvP is carried out (like how well this thread was going by the first two posts).
I hope my answer is humble and if it helps, please feel free to give a +1


As for the item distribution and enchanting/soulcrafting stat factor, i recall that storm has said the different levels of PvP we may compete in prior to gear and character level. If we are aiming for regular level skills (monster cards) we should keep that in mind when PvPing and just accept the fact that you are at a disadvantage, or you can calculate the estimates of achieving maximum end-game gear by looking at the individual class guides that are helpful in both IAH and WP forums. Cash is also something we have to regard as in different environments, one may not be accessible to game cards or the usage of credit/debit cards (or paypal transactions). We can still achieve underground IM dealing (which people will always find a way to buy with gold) and brain-cell-blowing [endless] farming.

A helpful tip would be how people are farming Dragon Velly Arcade Mode F1 each day and achieving 1-8k depending on how many characters and time they are farming with.

Ultimately, the top PvPers i would say would be how they read peoples' movements, although gear-wise would play a significant role but still achievable to meet end-game demands.

Edited by ChaosIntel, 17 April 2012 - 07:38 PM.

[GuysWhySoSerious]

In order of who i think is best (not class wise):
Pally: xShaBoomx, Vieww (secret pally), and Odyssea
Myrm: Hawk (if he leveled up higher ysolazy)
Invoker: Rim, Ululonoh
Sorc: Not many active anymore
Sent: Nilla, Enticing
Gren: Sheol
Nin : Yurai
Savage: Not many active anymore
Jum: to broken in my opinion
Summoner: to broken in my opinion

[wyverlord]

summoner: Aireis

nobody really mentions da summoners yo

[Monyot]

After quoted by Coolsam, I feel like I should explain more or give about my opinion. First I am really agree with GrapefruitGod. You can see whether they are good in PvP or not just by seeing how they pvp. It is not gear related. And that's my criteria of "a great pvper".


Not being stereotype + adaptability + not depends on 1 skill. Gear maybe similar but how skilled they are using it are different. And skill tree, i feel that a great pvper don't really have combo. It just they use the skill depends on the situation, sometimes use attack skill to run or use running skill to start combo. Example of stereotype myrm is... too dependent to Stumble. While yes it is a good skill, but when you are too dependent to 1 skill, you will not have good adaptabilty.

Lock. I played thief, warrior and magician, and i can say that they don't need to lock in PvP to win. Hunter and dragon i haven't played it but i also think they don't need to lock (seeing how my opinion can be interpreted differently, my definition of lock is, using same skill over and over in 1 combo, not giving chance for the opponents to escape). People who locks to win, i would not consider them as great pvper. The saddest case is savage. Many savages try to lock even though they can do many more than lock (Some of them even try to lock inside tesla or blizzard, WTH! They should run or hide instead of LOCK!) .

Evade stacker. It is difficult to judge your skill if you are evade stacker because basically the opponent can't hit them, so we cant really see how they overcome opponents attack. And sadly i think most of them don't know what they are doing because they are too confident with their evade, thinking it won't hit them. Example for this, evade stacker who confidently walks through or standing in blizzard just because he has godly evade, i would never consider them as good PvPer.

Read the opponent (I thought it is clear =.=). Predict what your opponent will do and overcome it. Heck, use opponent habit to your advantage. It is a basic of Player vs Player game (Fighting game etc...) i think =.=. While research may be good, i will consider "feeling" is much better because the great opponent has high adaptability. You should research them and also overcome it while fighting them.

@Coolsam: I don't want to flame. About why I don't consider you as top myrm. It is because of your playstyle... I see your playstyle is too stereotype, making it too easy to read, too reckless etc.... I have pvped undergeared myrm and i still consider them better because of the criteria I mentioned above. Yes you are in my top ten myrm list, but it is because I have only pvped about 8 myrms, and sadly i think you as 7th or 8th (Again no offense). And I haven't had chance pvping many people (that's why I can only mention a miniscule name, while i think there are more great pvper in this game). Hope you can think of this, and improve not only your gear, but your skill, so not only people who have pvped less than 10 myrms will acknowledge you as their top 10 myrms, but also those who have pvped more than 10 myrms will acknowledge you.

Edited by Monyot, 17 April 2012 - 11:35 PM.

[GrapefruitGod]

Spoiler

After quoted by Coolsam, I feel like I should explain more or give about my opinion. First I am really agree with GrapefruitGod. You can see whether they are good in PvP or not just by seeing how they pvp. It is not gear related. And that's my criteria of "a great pvper".


Not being stereotype + adaptability + not depends on 1 skill. Gear maybe similar but how skilled they are using it are different. And skill tree, i feel that a great pvper don't really have combo. It just they use the skill depends on the situation, sometimes use attack skill to run or use running skill to start combo. Example of stereotype myrm is... too dependent to Stumble. While yes it is a good skill, but when you are too dependent to 1 skill, you will not have good adaptabilty.

Lock. I played thief, warrior and magician, and i can say that they don't need to lock in PvP to win. Hunter and dragon i haven't played it but i also think they don't need to lock (seeing how my opinion can be interpreted differently, my definition of lock is, using same skill over and over in 1 combo, not giving chance for the opponents to escape). People who locks to win, i would not consider them as great pvper. The saddest case is savage. Many savages try to lock even though they can do many more than lock (Some of them even try to lock inside tesla or blizzard, WTH! They should run or hide instead of LOCK!) .

Evade stacker. It is difficult to judge your skill if you are evade stacker because basically the opponent can't hit them, so we cant really see how they overcome opponents attack. And sadly i think most of them don't know what they are doing because they are too confident with their evade, thinking it won't hit them. Example for this, evade stacker who confidently walks through or standing in blizzard just because he has godly evade, i would never consider them as good PvPer.

Read the opponent (I thought it is clear =.=). Predict what your opponent will do and overcome it. Heck, use opponent habit to your advantage. It is a basic of Player vs Player game (Fighting game etc...) i think =.=. While research may be good, i will consider "feeling" is much better because the great opponent has high adaptability. You should research them and also overcome it while fighting them.

@Coolsam: I don't want to flame. About why I don't consider you as top myrm. It is because of your playstyle... I see your playstyle is too stereotype, making it too easy to read, too reckless etc.... I have pvped undergeared myrm and i still consider them better because of the criteria I mentioned above. Yes you are in my top ten myrm list, but it is because I have only pvped about 8 myrms, and sadly i think you as 7th or 8th (Again no offense). And I haven't had chance pvping many people (that's why I can only mention a miniscule name, while i think there are more great pvper in this game). Hope you can think of this, and improve not only your gear, but your skill, so not only people who have pvped less than 10 myrms will acknowledge you as their top 10 myrms, but also those who have pvped more than 10 myrms will acknowledge you.

[Jumpluffspore]

Pvp discussion shouldn't be on talking about who's the best because it makes everyone look like a duck-rider. Rather, the focus should be on self-improvement.

[JoeKim]

Pvp discussion shouldn't be on talking about who's the best because it makes everyone look like a duck-rider. Rather, the focus should be on self-improvement.

What exactly is a duck-rider? o,o
Anyway, people can talk about self-improvement in another thread. a pvp discussion can be about anything pertaining to pvp; this is just one of many discussions we're having.

Back to topic. I totally agree with Monyot's comment, that's how a pvper can be great!! Thanks guys for your comments =D

[Miname]

What exactly is a duck-rider? o,o
Anyway, people can talk about self-improvement in another thread. a pvp discussion can be about anything pertaining to pvp; this is just one of many discussions we're having.

Back to topic. I totally agree with Monyot's comment, that's how a pvper can be great!! Thanks guys for your comments =D

Swap the U for an I.

[Jumpluffspore]

What exactly is a duck-rider? o,o
Anyway, people can talk about self-improvement in another thread. a pvp discussion can be about anything pertaining to pvp; this is just one of many discussions we're having.

Back to topic. I totally agree with Monyot's comment, that's how a pvper can be great!! Thanks guys for your comments =D

Identifying the greats does nothing, unless this turns into an advice thread for the classes(which we already have) It's like determining which plant produces the most oxygen.

[Wobinar]

I know pvp is somewhat dead... But who'd you guys consider the best pvper(s) of each class is?? It'd be an interesting convooo

I

Sadly you can't pvp the Best, they all quitted, but you can pvp whatever is left.

[Ethernal]

Myrm: Difficult
Pally: The one that facerolls the hardest.
Ninja: Smear/Naru
Savage: That perm 30 guy.
Sorcerer: Choasrage/Ragelaxy
Invoker: None
Sentinel: Firin
Destroyer: Nikita
Summoner: The one that spams mana burn the hardest.
Jumeauauaux: The one that... w8 got dc'd.

This list is entirely valid. If you try to change something or think differently yer just wrong and retarded.

Edited by Ethernal, 21 April 2012 - 10:38 AM.

[Maronu]

I am clearly showing how i am the undoubted best summoner ever. How is that not on topic? If anything the amount of crying you are producing is off topic. So please stay on topic.

Endbringer your rebuttal... doesn't even remotely... address the point I brought up....

I realize you are fishing and... hopefully joking...

...But let me say this slowly, clearly, and maturely....so that people understand...(There really is no need for backlash when Maronu says naughty word ) ...


The point is...

Restrict the OP summoner skills... just like anything else that is broken....
There isn't a problem... if you do that....

We use restrictions in pvp normally when playing this game....

I do not appreciate... people giving the class a bad name...or spreading the idea that it's acceptable or normal... for summoners to play without any skill restrictions...

Without skill restrictions = without skill.

Perhaps you are trying to make the point that the class needs some balance changes... but this isn't the place for it...and I'm sure the sarcastic tone goes over some people's heads...

I guess... I just really don't want any fledgling summoners.... somehow getting the idea... that playing the way you did in that video... is actually how we should all play, or is something that will make you a pro summoner...and I don't want players to shy away from the class...thinking that there is no way to play fairly...Your posts may mislead new players into coming to those conclusions... and that is partially why I find them offensive. Hopefully you were not truly offended by my response....

To summoners:

We can play in a more pro and more fair way with any class... simply by not using OP skills...or agreeing with our opponents on what skills not to use...

For summoner those skills may include 4th job skills, burn, and regain refresh (so ask your opponents about skill restrictions if you choose to pvp or make a habit of not using them in practice, unless you want to hear massive QQ).

Endbringer is certainly not using that video... in order to show he is skilled at the class...
but the video does emphasize the need for restrictions...

[Miname]

Savage: That perm 30 guy.

Harlequin?

[phuckBT]

Harlequin?

Indeed.

[Execrate]

Harlequin?

I assume so.

[Jumpluffspore]

Harlequin?

It's pretty much just gear though :X

[SharpX]

Oh... we're naming off low lvls too now? I don't think Harle would count as the best pvper tho...

[GrapefruitGod]

Spoiler

His list was a joke for those who didnt know