25 replies to this topic

[Doddler]

Well it's relevant to this discussion, so I should bring them up, but hopefully it's not a mistake in case some of these don't get addressed...

1) The shadow chaser skill 'Masquarade: Ignorance' works against bosses and MVPs, preventing them from using skills.

2) The shadow chaser skill 'Fatal Menace' can be used to snatch MVP and boss monsters.

3) Using the Sorcerer skill 'Spell Fist' against a monster using the same element as that monster will cause it to die instantly reguardless of its HP.

4) In instances such as endless tower, sealed shrine, and nidhoggur's nest, the Sorcerer skill 'Extreme Vacuum', and the ranger skill 'Wug Bite' can be used to permenantly lock a monster in place, where it can easily be killed with ranged attacks. Probably need to block these skills from ET and other instances.

5) Monsters are still really stupid when icewall is cast on them. Can we block icewall from MVP maps or something...?

Edited by Doddler, 14 September 2010 - 08:31 AM.

[DrAzzy]

Is 2 a problem, or intended? What is the issue with it? Separating monster from mob? Is it abusable?

One really wonders how the issue with spellfist got out of kRO like that. Do they do any testing?

Is icewall any more abusable than before? I was under the impression that it was unchanged - and so just as abusable (but no more so) than it currently is. I think there are too many maps with MVPs on them to go blocking icewall on all maps... Icewall is a rather problematic skill though... It really needs a balanced, well-thought-out fix to make it less exploitable on MVPs.

[Prodigy]

^
2) The issue with this is probably because Snatch doesn't work against MvPs which is why Fatal Menace should not work either. I guess for kRO, forcing to tele an MvP via rude hits is okay (since this is the countermeasure to being locked in place) as opposed to directly forcing an MvP to tele with snatch/fatal menace.

3) I thought kRO already had that fixed a long time ago? Are there other kRO fixes that we're missing?

[DrAzzy]

Are there other kRO fixes that we're missing?

Most of them.

[AnhHero]

Have MvP's have no collision with Ice Wall and go through it as well? :x

[Hrishi]

So .. even with the renewal update Ice wall functions as earlier? Traps MvPs and changes them into idle etc?

[Doddler]

The 'Renewal' way to kill an MVP.

1) Use icewall on an MVP.
2) Cast Masquarade: Ignorance on the MVP so it cannot use skills.
3) Deal as much damage as you can in 15 seconds while the MVP cannot teleport.
4) Refresh icewall and repeat.

It's not really a big surprise that almost all exploits that involve killing MVPs involves icewall. Until they fix it there's not much they can do. :/

Edited by Doddler, 14 September 2010 - 10:27 AM.

[Shinobi]

Mvp's should be able to target Ice wall as if it were a player. To where you could use Icewall on an mvp but it can attack and break the ice wall also. The same goes with monsters. The ice wall should be identified as an enemy. (Kind of like a homunculus tank is.)

[Viri]

Just do it like euRO. Ban if people use icewall anywhere within 50 feet of an MVP

[Doddler]

Just do it like euRO. Ban if people use icewall anywhere within 50 feet of an MVP

Unfortunately, iRO's community won't really work that way. They simply wouldn't MVP when there are people within 50 feet of an MVP to see them using it, and then grief people to leave.

Honestly I can't think of a solution other than simply blocking the skill on MVP maps.

Edited by Doddler, 14 September 2010 - 11:54 AM.

[Shinobi]

What would be wrong with the skill if monsters/mvps could attack/break out of ice wall?

[Doddler]

What would be wrong with the skill if monsters/mvps could attack/break out of ice wall?

That would be fine, but I'm looking at realistic solutions. iRO GMs could rather easily adjust what skills are and are not allowed to use on specific maps (and likely will have to to prevent lots of the ill-mannered behavior that renewal skills allow). iRO GMs have no way to change monster behavior, and such requests would have to go through Korea.

[Viri]

Unfortunately, iRO's community won't really work that way. They simply wouldn't MVP when there are people within 50 feet of an MVP to see them using it, and then grief people to leave.

Honestly I can't think of a solution other than simply blocking the skill on MVP maps.

This is why we can't have nice things, just make all mvps ghost property, have plant like defense, 10000 hp and have them spam 9999 heals on themselves. Except from bbs they all bug and have 1 hp. It'd be as stupid as it is now.

[Adrianus]

I agree something needs to be done about IW and MVP exploits in general, however since IW is the main component in alot of MVP exploits it needs to be addressed. It is ridiculous it has been abused for so long with no action. We always got the excuse oh well Renewal will change alot of things so hopefully this won't be an issue after. Well here is Renewal and it appears to still be an issue (even worse so with that fatal menace exploit).

I have always looked at MVPs as a challenge and something fun to do but have a hard time convincing others to do so because they would rather take the easy guaranteed kill route which completely kills the challenge that I find fun. Renewal changes various aspects of the game and is in my opinion the ideal time to make changes like this. I'm so tired of the efficiency over fun and RO is a job not a game mentality so many people have. As long as exploits are possible and punishment is not dealt out then people will continue to abuse them. The only stop to this is to prevent them from exploiting in the first place or actually start dishing out punishments that are enough to deter people. I know everyone says time and time again RO doesn't have enough people for the GMs to ban people etc etc. But in my opinion one of the reasons why this exploit everything we can mentality has been able to thrive is that no punishments were given so people decided it was an ok thing to do.

So I beg of you GMs please do something now while you have an ideal opportunity. I really like playing RO and it troubles me to see it reduced to one exploit after another without people actually enjoying the great game that it is.

[Ultimate]

take out ice wall and give us a different, unique skill

[Viri]

They would have to actively suspend people in a meaningful way, and be consistent about it. Good luck.

[Adrianus]

Well if they are unwilling to dish out punishment for exploiting the least they can do is fix the exploits in a semi reasonable manner. Doing nothing however is unacceptable. What is the point of game moderators if they don't moderate. I don't mean offense with that because I know you guys have alot on your plates at times. I find if anything you tend to bend over too much to the wants of the community sometimes you need to make a stand on what you think is right and wrong. I am sure I have seen at least Heim mention on several occasions how he dislikes exploits and such so please make a stand and stop/fix the exploits.

[Viri]

They don't moderate though, because they don't have the manpower to do it consistently and it looks really bad when you moderate in one case and not in another exact case. I really think it comes down to being unable to afford sufficient manpower. They usually just do silent fixes when they can.

[Doddler]

From my perspective, I figure that if the GMs were to do anything about it, now would be the time. While extreme, they could go "After renewal icewall is limited to PVP and Guild Dungeon", and the community could cope because of skill resets. Honestly there's so many issues with icewall, from breaking ground cells, bugging monsters, teleporting players (by walling on their log-in/spawn), ill mannered uses, that I wouldn't be sad to see it go.

[Adrianus]

What they could do to IW to make it a useful skill for wizzies so they don't complain one of their skills got killed is turn it into a water elemented fire wall. Just change IW from its current form into basically a carbon copy firewall but make it water elemented instead. I can think of alot of players that would love such a change because of their inability to fire wall fire elemented monsters. This way you would in essence remove IWs ability to be abused and not destroy a classes skill.

[Heimdallr]

Yeah exploits are bad..

We have debated removing IceWall from MVP maps, and high end MVPs is fine as they are not really on leveling maps. But the low tiered MVPs are very spread out and would make it the "no icewall" almost a default setting for Ragnarok.

[Shinobi]

How about allowing the MVP to "wing" when being dmged without a target?

[Adrianus]

If turning it off is a no go then just alter it to be less abusable. I know when I talked to a GM one time on Sakray when you were testing Wish Maiden's reaction to IW, I was told that you were unable to make the monster recognize or target the IW in any way. Since as it stands IW is a VERY niche skill to use (almost all the uses I can think of involve exploits) why not just change it unto something different entirely.

Make it useful for wizards so they don't lose their skill and make it unabusable. The best I can think of is fire wall because it serves a similar purpose. The wall skills are meant to create an obstacle to hold monsters back give the wizard time to cast. Fire wall does it via damage and knock-back where IW does it by merely blocking out the cells which is what makes it abusable. I can think of no better solution than changing it to mimic fire wall as it keeps the same function as it is meant to have and removes the exploit.

[HugPorings]

why is blocking the movmdent of an mbv an exploit?
Thats is what ice wall is fore.
and if they do not want ice wall to be used its a simple fix.
give all boss a new skill that ties into ice wall
the skill will be to cancel any ice wall near by. the skill can cast every 5
secounts.

[Doddler]

Yeah exploits are bad..

We have debated removing IceWall from MVP maps, and high end MVPs is fine as they are not really on leveling maps. But the low tiered MVPs are very spread out and would make it the "no icewall" almost a default setting for Ragnarok.

Well, if you were going to consider making such a change, renewal would be the best time to do it. People are already going to be skill resetting.

Edited by Doddler, 14 September 2010 - 01:48 PM.