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#1 FormerlyEternal

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 09:44 AM

Hi, this is my first post on the forums.


I want to propose the integration of a clan ladder. The ladder would be in-game (and possibly outside the game as well), viewable at anytime, perhaps in the Game Arena (GA) tab. Similar to how, after current GA fights end all results are tallied and laddered together, however it would be persistant, so a clans overall performance would be measured, kills, deaths etc in GA.

I think this is one of the things that are really missing from the game, a sense of persistant competition. Sure, people who participate more will get more kills etc, however there could be percentages etc on the ladder. It could have perhaps the top 15 clans?
If in the future a clan v clan fighting arena is made, there could be a separate one for that as well. I feel this would really motivate clans to organise and participate in GA, to be at the top/keep the top spot, and if not it would just be fun to see how you're doing on an individual ladder.

I just thought of this and I thought i sounded cool, anyone's suggestions/criticisms are welcome.
I don't know how hard it would be to code, but I know that some amateurs on game's I've played in the past have made their own clan ladders *themselves*, so it shouldn't be beyond actual game devs.


No insulting devs or anything in this thread *please*. Thanks.

Edited by FormerlyEternal, 13 June 2012 - 11:05 AM.

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#2 Casanovovic

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 04:23 AM

very nice idee, moderators take it serious


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#3 FormerlyEternal

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 07:48 AM

very nice idee, moderators take it serious


Thanks mate. It's a relatively simple thing compared to many suggestions, but would have a huge impact imo.



Anybody I've spoken too have said things to the effect of "I will be crazy active to keep my spot on a ladder".
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#4 jerremy

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 09:52 AM

I like the idea, and I just want to add something.

For the individual ladder, they should make a ladder for every class. Each and every class has its own perks, and should be judged in another way too. If it's only based on the amount of kills and all that, the higher damage classes would nearly always score better. So if every class has its own ladder, on top of the normal ladder, you can see how good you do based on the class you play.
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#5 FormerlyEternal

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 01:26 PM

I like the idea, and I just want to add something.


Sweet, let's generate some interest

For the individual ladder, they should make a ladder for every class. Each and every class has its own perks, and should be judged in another way too. If it's only based on the amount of kills and all that, the higher damage classes would nearly always score better. So if every class has its own ladder, on top of the normal ladder, you can see how good you do based on the class you play.


Yeah good thinking, I thought of that myself but I forgot to mention it.

A ranking for clans with all their results ratios etc on.

Then an individual ranking, which has a tab for overall points, then individual tabs for each job showing kills, deaths etc. Any other ideas?
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#6 JavedIqbal

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 02:17 PM

Well, since I don't see many (any) games where one entire side is a single clan, I suggest making it an individual ranking based on performance, with clan ranks then created from the individual rankings of those clan members.

Until there is a competitive clan v clan format, there won't be too much meaning for a "clan" rank then otherwise. I imagine having something like a weighted average, where higher ranked members can get somewhat more weight as well to try to allow clans to still invite new members who aren't great without effecting their ranking as negatively. Another option would be not including someone's personal rank until they have been in the clan for a period of time; or perhaps not including anything except their performance while in the clan.

Honestly, the hardest part of the suggestion would be deciding how best to implement the ranking system. Questions like: How important is losing the match if you performed well relative to your allies? How do you account for matches won/lost when the teams were not evenly matched for all or part of the match? How do you deal with people leaving partway through a match?

All of these would need to be implemented into whatever formula, and they aren't really that easy to answer. You could be the best champion/raider/whatever in the game, enter GA by yourself, end up on a garbage team, and do great, but have your team lose terribly. Should that negatively effect your ranking? What if you're a cleric? Then your performance is going to largely be based on even teams. If your team is completely destroying the other team, you might not have much to heal. If you're on a team that's doing terribly, you might spend half the match buffing people who are resurrecting instead, and not getting a chance to score big healing scores. Anyway, I think it's a good idea, but it won't necessarily be extremely easy to put together a truly good system.
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#7 FormerlyEternal

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 02:33 PM

Well, since I don't see many (any) games where one entire side is a single clan, I suggest making it an individual ranking based on performance, with clan ranks then created from the individual rankings of those clan members.

Yeah that was the idea :P
Should have been clearer about that for sure.

Until there is a competitive clan v clan format, there won't be too much meaning for a "clan" rank then otherwise. I imagine having something like a weighted average, where higher ranked members can get somewhat more weight as well to try to allow clans to still invite new members who aren't great without effecting their ranking as negatively. Another option would be not including someone's personal rank until they have been in the clan for a period of time; or perhaps not including anything except their performance while in the clan.

Yeah I think weighted average is the answer. I can't lie, I don't understand how these things work, so it's great to have the input.

Honestly, the hardest part of the suggestion would be deciding how best to implement the ranking system. Questions like: How important is losing the match if you performed well relative to your allies? How do you account for matches won/lost when the teams were not evenly matched for all or part of the match? How do you deal with people leaving partway through a match?

I guess the way I see it, is that this is basically a problem with the current system already, one could argue it's unfair in these circumstances already - however over time I belive the amount of games that you get a good team/bad team in would average out for everybody. Additionally, one of the points of this would be to motivate clans to create good teams (groups) before going in. As opposed to the current system where the GA has no relation to to your clan, and there is no quantifiable, persistant representation of a clans performance anywhere in the game, besides in the hearesay of others.


All of these would need to be implemented into whatever formula, and they aren't really that easy to answer. You could be the best champion/raider/whatever in the game, enter GA by yourself, end up on a garbage team, and do great, but have your team lose terribly. Should that negatively effect your ranking?

A good question, I don't have the answer at the moment, but I would be leaning towards no. Since then the performance of your own team could inflate your own results, and not be a representation of your or your clans abilities - so as it stands i'd lean towards seeing ga as a team game, but with an individual slant (which is reflected by the current results table at the end). Other than that, what do you feel about this? But this is once again a thing that balances out with time.

What if you're a cleric? Then your performance is going to largely be based on even teams. If your team is completely destroying the other team, you might not have much to heal. If you're on a team that's doing terribly, you might spend half the match buffing people who are resurrecting instead, and not getting a chance to score big healing scores. Anyway, I think it's a good idea, but it won't necessarily be extremely easy to put together a truly good system.


I'm afraid I don't have all the answers, and thanks - it's great to see a reply and, I'm sure even if implimented with a fraction of what I think it have/be, it would only be a benefit.
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#8 JavedIqbal

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 03:00 PM

I just want to clarify that I wasn't trying to be overly critical or anything of the main idea. I think that a ranking system is a good idea. The questions I was raising were not necessarily meant to receive a community answer, but rather to exemplify some of the difficulties of implementing a system like this to better explain why it might take time before it's implemented. That being said, if they wanted to add an "in the mean time..." sort of thing, they could simply put in a record sheet recording the average damage dealt, amount healed, damage taken, etc. Basically, just taking all the data they already record, and keep it somewhere, then average it, would be extremely simple. It wouldn't give you a "this person is 1st, this one's 2nd" sort of thing, but it would give you something to work for still.

They could perhaps give you an "offensive score" and a "healing score". I imagine it wouldn't be too challenging to make a score out of 1,000, for example, and have people receive points toward it based on the highest score in the game. I suspect that a linear curve would be a little harsh, perhaps using a sqrt(x) graph would be more generous: get 1,000 points for doing most damage in game on your side; get 707 points for doing half that; get 447 for doing 1/5; and 316 for a tenth. Although, perhaps that is too generous for the lower end. my concern with a system like that is weighting it away from anyone that doesn't do aoe's at all. That being said, within classes it would still be pretty even.

I could see further weighting it by increasing the value of damage dealt to a crystal (or around it), as well as increasing healing done to the crystal (or around it) to encourage objective play more, but they would need to be careful not to weight it too heavily or you'll see your 4 raiders sitting there attacking the crystal instead of the healers to boost their score :P

Anyway, these are just some of my thoughts on the issue. I just wanted to make sure you didn't feel like I was criticizing your idea, when really all I was trying to do was present some of my own while simultaneously discussing some of the difficulties with actually putting a system into the game. Some people don't understand why something isn't done immediately the moment its suggested because it looks simple on the surface and I was just making it a little more clear that it's not simply creating a board to display numbers they already have; it's going to be a process to put it in the game.
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#9 FormerlyEternal

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 03:13 PM

I just wanted to make sure you didn't feel like I was criticizing your idea, when really all I was trying to do was present some of my own while simultaneously discussing some of the difficulties with actually putting a system into the game. Some people don't understand why something isn't done immediately the moment its suggested because it looks simple on the surface and I was just making it a little more clear that it's not simply creating a board to display numbers they already have; it's going to be a process to put it in the game.


No for sure I see what you're saying, I hope I didn't come across as if I was trying to make the impression that it was easy and should be implemented imediately, I know that this type of thing does take a specific type of know-how, both in coding and in understanding statistics.

That being said, MAKE IN NAO DEVS D:

jk.
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#10 VonRabie

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 03:39 PM

I liked the idea but I have some hesitations about selfishness. People will try hard to get to top15. I fear they'll start spawn-killing, forget about teamplay, stop protecting clerics or crystal etc. That kind of competition could ruin GA.
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#11 FormerlyEternal

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 03:43 PM

I liked the idea but I have some hesitations about selfishness. People will try hard to get to top15. I fear they'll start spawn-killing, forget about teamplay, stop protecting clerics or crystal etc. That kind of competition could ruin GA.


I feel that's not an issue with the clan rank itself though, that's an issue with the current GA format/spawn protection.
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#12 VonRabie

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 03:56 PM

I feel that's not an issue with the clan rank itself though, that's an issue with the current GA format/spawn protection.


But you can't adjust the game format because of selfish people. Maybe instead of measuring success with spesific things like kills or, kill/death ratio, you measure his/her/clan's average points they get. And the top15 will reset weekly. This way you could get people be less selfish because it gives points to attack the crystal (I'm not sure about this one ^^).
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#13 FormerlyEternal

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 04:07 PM

But you can't adjust the game format because of selfish people.


Of course you can. They do it all the time, in all games. If there is something there to exploit, even to the detriment of others, most people will exploit it - it's human nature. It's naive to just expect everyone to respect everyone else. I personally never spawn kill, i rarely get onto the grass in CD because I think that's lame, only when im chasing an individual who is about to die. However some will always do these things, especially if other people are doing it - people naturally follow the crowd.


Maybe instead of measuring success with spesific things like kills or, kill/death ratio, you measure his/her/clan's average points they get. And the top15 will reset weekly. This way you could get people be less selfish because it gives points to attack the crystal (I'm not sure about this one ^^).

Well why not kills and points? Best of both worlds right?

Edited by FormerlyEternal, 14 June 2012 - 04:08 PM.

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#14 JavedIqbal

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 05:32 PM

You would probably want a combination of kills and damage done. I know, for example, when playing battlegrounds in world of warcraft it was quite easy to top the charts on kills without even doing the most damage if you just went out of your way to get the finishing hit. I played that game for a few months a while back and I certainly recall games where I would be first place with 50+ kills with second place in the twenties, but I'd only be 2nd or 3rd in damage dealt.

I don't think that they should reset it weekly. That is really too quick for anyone who doesn't play the game constantly to feel like they're working toward something. They'll probably end up resetting it occasionally as scores blow up, but if done correctly it would probably be every 1-2 months, not every week. This would be for a ranking system. If it's simply a score like the one I proposed earlier, it would probably be something with a running average with some limit on games/time period to start "dropping" scores out of the average so that people aren't being ranked on how they performed a year ago or such.

The way that you support people playing correctly is giving a bonus when things are done near the objective (crystal) or when people complete/assist in the objective (damage/heal the crystal). If people get more points if it's done near the crystal, then people will tend to be closer to the crystal. Furthermore, assuming people like winning (pretty safe assumption...) they will do the objective. Making a system that rewards it just helps with that. The ranking system doesn't innately make people less likely to do the objective. Some people will go off to try to boost their personal rank, but since the rank doesn't directly influence their reward for the game, and tends to give points for doing what the current system rewards them for, I don't see why there would be much difference.
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#15 Cloudius

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 07:57 PM

Give bonus percentages to people on higher rankings. Received extra honor points for example, unique quests depending on the rank. Points for retaining no.1 rank etc.
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#16 shokwavez

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 08:15 PM

I would actually love to see this be implemented in game on some kind of daily scoreboard of the participants. It would definitely bring up the morale of the gameplay giving players something to strive for while farming and earning better gears. I know I'd have a hell of a fun time trying to get on some kind of ladder :P. I hope a DEV or a CM would be able to comment on this on their own personal thoughts about it.
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#17 SabbyYo

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 09:00 PM

I would actually love to see this be implemented in game on some kind of daily scoreboard of the participants. It would definitely bring up the morale of the gameplay giving players something to strive for while farming and earning better gears. I know I'd have a hell of a fun time trying to get on some kind of ladder :P. I hope a DEV or a CM would be able to comment on this on their own personal thoughts about it.


agreed!
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#18 jerremy

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 02:00 AM

I liked the idea but I have some hesitations about selfishness. People will try hard to get to top15. I fear they'll start spawn-killing, forget about teamplay, stop protecting clerics or crystal etc. That kind of competition could ruin GA.

The spawnkilling won't be too much of a problem, unless people are still unaware that your participation doesn't count near the enemy spawn.
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#19 FormerlyEternal

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 02:31 AM

You would probably want a combination of kills and damage done. I know, for example, when playing battlegrounds in world of warcraft it was quite easy to top the charts on kills without even doing the most damage if you just went out of your way to get the finishing hit. I played that game for a few months a while back and I certainly recall games where I would be first place with 50+ kills with second place in the twenties, but I'd only be 2nd or 3rd in damage dealt.


Yeah for your position on the ladder of course, I just mean that both kills and damage would be on the ladder recorded, so that you could mesasure yourself in terms of individual contributions. So you may have done less damage to someone, but you could say you got more kills or something. Certain jobs have a harder time getting higher points sadly, but that's once again not a problem with this suggestion.

I don't think that they should reset it weekly. That is really too quick for anyone who doesn't play the game constantly to feel like they're working toward something. They'll probably end up resetting it occasionally as scores blow up, but if done correctly it would probably be every 1-2 months, not every week. This would be for a ranking system. If it's simply a score like the one I proposed earlier, it would probably be something with a running average with some limit on games/time period to start "dropping" scores out of the average so that people aren't being ranked on how they performed a year ago or such.


Agreed, it would be a silly system especially for clans, if a clan maintains a decent spot for a long time, new clans would have to play for as long as that old clan to stand a chance of getting on the ladder, when the old clan could have just played for longer (therefore it's not recording the skill of the clan/individual). I don't know another way to do it so it constantly changes without building up over time. Perhaps the results you have could remain persistant, so that you could have your kills/damage/heals always recorded but you would be a given a rating based on current performance? And the rating would go up to a number, say? Do you know what i mean?

And perhaps for getting and holding a 1, 2, or 3 spot you could get some sort of strike on your account, just something to represent the fact that you did it, so that when/if the ladder resets you still have it recorded that you have attained that position (and it's showable to others somehow, I don't know about this idea, it's just an additional musing).


The way that you support people playing correctly is giving a bonus when things are done near the objective (crystal) or when people complete/assist in the objective (damage/heal the crystal). If people get more points if it's done near the crystal, then people will tend to be closer to the crystal. Furthermore, assuming people like winning (pretty safe assumption...) they will do the objective. Making a system that rewards it just helps with that. The ranking system doesn't innately make people less likely to do the objective. Some people will go off to try to boost their personal rank, but since the rank doesn't directly influence their reward for the game, and tends to give points for doing what the current system rewards them for, I don't see why there would be much difference.

Agreed.

Give bonus percentages to people on higher rankings. Received extra honor points for example, unique quests depending on the rank. Points for retaining no.1 rank etc.


I really this idea, or some variation of it.

I would actually love to see this be implemented in game on some kind of daily scoreboard of the participants. It would definitely bring up the morale of the gameplay giving players something to strive for while farming and earning better gears. I know I'd have a hell of a fun time trying to get on some kind of ladder :P. I hope a DEV or a CM would be able to comment on this on their own personal thoughts about it.


You've got it pal! I think the potential returns for the investment of time and money into this suggestion far greater than many additions of content or rebalances (although those things are obviously important), just because they're a motivating factor - something lacking in the current game.
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#20 Archtog

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 02:08 PM

I'm not sure about having a clan ranking system within the game arena unless they have plans to add a clan warring system to it. However a personal ranking system based on individual classes would be amazing to see. I tested crystal defenders a lot on Pegasus and I played it a few times since it has come to Leonis but I no longer play it that much. I think I would play it a lot more if there was a competitive ranking system like this. =)
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#21 FormerlyEternal

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 08:31 AM

I'm not sure about having a clan ranking system within the game arena unless they have plans to add a clan warring system to it.


The idea is that the the system would take indivudal results and put them in a ladder, and then tally up all the results of all the individuals in each clan and tally them as well.

However a personal ranking system based on individual classes would be amazing to see. I tested crystal defenders a lot on Pegasus and I played it a few times since it has come to Leonis but I no longer play it that much. I think I would play it a lot more if there was a competitive ranking system like this. =)


For sure :D
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#22 FormerlyEternal

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 04:24 PM

I was really hoping this would see more enthusiasm v_v
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#23 DigitalKitten

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 02:44 PM

+1
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#24 limzz

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 12:12 PM

I like the idea, I think it would turn GA up a notch with the ladder, It also show's how your doing in GA (generally) like a statistic ladder with like Kill/death and assist also an avarage value of points u get each match. I also like the idea with having a Clan vs Clan in GA. Since you can only have 1 client in there at the same time you can't abuse it.
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#25 K0rey

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 01:15 PM

I like this idea a lot. Who doesn't like to be competitive? :P
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