94 replies to this topic

[ExDarkrb]

I have seen waaaaaay too many debates here and there about botting being bad and on the other hand having some people that say botting is not completely a bad activity as it boosts the economy.
So, as an economics student, i think i should shed some light on the topic for those that are not well-versed in this area.

Botting from the perspective of a market failure:

Botting, in short for botting activity, is a type of market failure where there is an inefficient allocation of resources, namely, over-allocation at times.

As from the diagram below, you can see that there are 2 lines, SMC and PMC while SMB=PMB. The divergence in the SMC and PMC lines show the increasing negative externalities (more botting, more cost on the society)

Marginal cost/benefit is the additional cost/benefit you pay/receive for each additional item

eg. 1 apple $1, 2 apples $2, 3 apples $3
some marginal costs are constant like above but some are diverging
1 poring card 2000z, 2 poring cards 3800z, 3 poring cards 5500z...



Q_s represents the socially optimum level in which the the cost of society fully matches the benefit by society and Q_e is the equilibrium quantity where the private benefit matches the private cost.
As you can see from the diagram that because of botting activity, we, as a community, suffer a welfare loss.

In real life, a tax or a sort of pass is needed to control the private cost so that it matches the socially optimum level but there is no such thing in-game.

However yet, what negative externalities do we actually bear? 0.00100 more ping?
Really, it taxes the server, mainly Valk. Currently on classic, the PMB=SMB line is currently at the far left where there is still little botting activity and such, the amount of botting is too little or just near the socially optimum level. However, for Valk, there is the line too much to the right which gives it a LARGE negative externality. Ymir has almost zero which is also not good thing as there is under-allocation.

Botting from a Global perspective:


In this World of Ragnarok, there is, like any country, inflation, growth, capital/current account and unemployment.

Inflation - A rise in general price levels without any increase in production
Growth - Increase in the amount of money in the server (in other words total money from NPCs)
Capital/Current account - Kafra shops, where investments/trade are brought in from another country (i.e. the real world)
Unemployment - people not being able to play due to life or just sitting around in town.

In this world as such, there is an aggregate supply and aggregate demand which represents the total demand and supply of the whole Ragnarok.

Ever had those foreign workers who came to your country for cheap labour? Those that do the dirty jobs you dont want to?
Bots are like that, they come at a lower cost and pick up the loot (those that you wudnt do).

In other words, they provide an alternate supply of good where the price is lower and a normal supply and demand curve of that good (example, maybe a card?) will easily show that due to the increase in supply, the price decreases and quantity demanded increases.

However, on the large scale, if botting of goods is wide-spread, due to the lower cost of production (players have to spend time and electricity while botters only spend electricity), there is an increase in aggregate supply, which inadvertently is a good thing. This actually increases the short-run aggregate supply and the diagram shows the SRAS curve decreasing (yes, there is no mistake). You can observe that there is a decrease in General Price Level which means a much lower inflation (we call this cost push inflation)

This is a good thing because everything is cheaper and the cost of living is lower.

You can also see that the National Income of the economy increase which means people are going to have more money!

The AD curve is more to the left for Classic and Ymir because these servers have really low total demand and Valk will be already at full employment.
Thus, for Valk, the further decrease in Cost of Production (increase in bots) will not affect the General price level or National Income at all and in fact is bad because of the negative externalities as shown above.



TL;DR i conclude that botting is not completely bad for the economy. Largely, Valk has an over allocation of resources in botting and Classic/Ymir need more to propel the economy. This is my 20 cents (mean it! I spent quite some time on this) and i do hope that you undertsand what im saying. This is wholely from the perspective of an economics student. I am not siding with bots or what but im trying to say they improve the economy. Feel free to comment and give your 2 cents as well. Also, i would like to note that this is from a basic economics subject so in the case you have a more developed argument, i would really like to see and comprehend it, hopefully it can even help me in my final exams =P

PEACE~

Edited by ExDarkrb, 01 July 2012 - 06:06 PM.

[Maux]

Ok I have test tomorrow, I uped the post because of the graphics, will read it all tomorrow.

[GoldMalice]

tl;dr

But no doubt in short, based on what I read in the last paragraph and the fact you main a Gene/Bio; "Too lazy to hunt things on my own that I need to use my super-powerful skills indiscriminately, I'd rather just get ten thousand bottles for AD from my bots so I can toss them out willy-nilly"

The acquisition of items without player effort should ever and will NEVER be good for this game or any game, the idea was that high-power skills like Acid Bomb, Enchant Deadly Poison and (to a lesser extent) High Speed Cart Ram are balanced out by their cost.

I'm personally against skills like that, because you can't make something super strong and say "Oh, no problem, it's got an item cost.", that's all well and good, but people WILL find ways to have tons of those materials, legal or not.

Edited by GoldMalice, 01 July 2012 - 05:55 PM.

[cybernetic]

tldr

[PudinPuddy]

This actually makes sense. Thanks for sharing. Can't believe I read the entire thing but I did.

[Ramen]

TLDR, and I don't understand most of the economics specific terms that you've used. Also, I find it hard to agree with someone who mains a class that stands to benefit heavily from botting.

[SpoonMonarcH]

The problem I have with botting is mostly the fact that AD is retarded when you have a lot of mats. As someone who used to play a lot of Creator in large WoE-fanatic guilds, I still can't say I think AD is remotely balanced without a tightly controlled economy. It should just be less accessible PvP/WoE and remain as useful as it is now in PvE/

[lonelygirl16]

I've a test of microeconomics tomorrow heheh
But speaking serious, what you've made it's just a joke, can't be taken too seriously

[SuwakoM]

Are you for real?

[kiiwi]

Ever had those foreign workers who came to your country for cheap labour? Those that do the dirty jobs you dont want to?
Bots are like that, they come at a lower cost and pick up the loot (those that you woudnt do).

Now if only they STAYED doing their dirty jobs and not taking from my paycheck (Looting ;~; )!

Edited by kiiwi, 01 July 2012 - 06:01 PM.

[kebra]

wtf

[Yuji]

You should try to explain the technical terms like SMC and PMC if you want to relay this to everyone out there. Only those who took basic economics will understand what you're trying to say and those who don't will probably won't take the effort to try to understand.

[ExDarkrb]

Ok I have test tomorrow, I uped the post because of the graphics, will read it all tomorrow.

Haha, good luck for your test!!

tl;dr

But no doubt in short, based on what I read in the last paragraph and the fact you main a Gene/Bio; "Too lazy to hunt things on my own that I need to use my super-powerful skills indiscriminately, I'd rather just get ten thousand bottles for AD from my bots so I can toss them out willy-nilly"

The acquisition of items without player effort should ever and will NEVER be good for this game or any game, the idea was that high-power skills like Acid Bomb, Enchant Deadly Poison and (to a lesser extent) High Speed Cart Ram are balanced out by their cost.

I'm personally against skills like that, because you can't make something super strong and say "Oh, no problem, it's got an item cost.", that's all well and good, but people WILL find ways to have tons of those materials, legal or not.

You are using too much of an emotional perspective on this issure, my post was something very very economical and what does the economy good. Also, you should read the whole thing and when you feel that i am wrong with my concepts then comment again

This actually makes sense. Thanks for sharing. Can't believe I read the entire thing but I did.

haha thanks! took me some time, be guess what? servers down so i have loads hahaha =P

TLDR, and I don't understand most of the economics specific terms that you've used. Also, I find it hard to agree with someone who mains a class that stands to benefit heavily from botting.

you didnt read and yet didnt understand the econs terms i used, so did u read or not? Hard to believe? It is social patterns made my professional economists who study COUNTRIES and came up with this idea, this is not religion, its a science

The problem I have with botting is mostly the fact that AD is retarded when you have a lot of mats. As someone who used to play a lot of Creator in large WoE-fanatic guilds, I still can't say I think AD is remotely balanced without a tightly controlled economy. It should just be less accessible PvP/WoE and remain as useful as it is now in PvE/

well, with that, AD consists of consumption which is the point i think you are making here. And when you say controlled economy, it is possible in the real world where you can control part of a system but in game, bots are either there or not there. You cant really tell the bot: "You cannot sell poison spore and stems for this month ok? Now go bot some equips instead"
it is all wide spread and every items has its own market. Thus, your AD did not concern other products like equips and consumables

[Zinja]

[ExDarkrb]

You should try to explain the technical terms like SMC and PMC if you want to relay this to everyone out there. Only those who took basic economics will understand what you're trying to say and those who don't will probably won't take the effort to try to understand.

haha will do, thanks, i thought it was quite understood o.O

[Dmentd]

My prescription for botters: transcortical lead therapy.

[Randalf]

This ignores the fact that the people running the bots benefit from selling whatever they pick up. In your example of bots as "illegal immigrants", then the bots themselves would be reaping in some sort of salary, they would have a cost to the business that uses them. In reality, bots are entirely advantageous to whoever is running them, providing a single player/group of players with items/money they didn't work to earn. Just because the people that use them then have an overabundance of materials and then decide to turn that into additional profit for themselves by selling it to other players doesn't mean bots have any sort of "work cost" on the economy.

There's really no real-life parallel to an illegal cost-free method of production within the market, is there? In real life, everything has a cost, so finding the most cost-efficient way to make your product available and obtain a profit is part of being a good businessman. In this game, the data/botting program literally has no economic cost. As long as you are willing to break the rules, you profit way more than the average player for doing no work yourself.

tdlr; this ignores the fact that bots can lead to a huge, heavily skewed amassment of private wealth, resulting in the highest class of competitively desired goods being available only to those that have this giant pool of money from their illegal activities.

I'm not even an economics major, but this argument ignores too many outside factors.

Edited by Randalf, 01 July 2012 - 06:08 PM.

[simeonsezz]

i really dont care if bots "improve" the economy and makes lvling easier for other people. the person that is bot farming makes the money. so that alone makes the game unfair. so yea i hate bots

[GoldMalice]

-snip-

I really like how you dismissed my entire post with "lol ur being emotional, look at my graphs!"
Come back once you have an explanation for the points I addressed in my original reply.

[simeonsezz]

This ignores the fact that the people running the bots benefit from selling whatever they pick up. In your example of bots as "illegal immigrants", then the bots themselves would be reaping in some sort of salary, they would have a cost to the business that uses them. In reality, bots are entirely advantageous to whoever is running them, providing a single player/group of players with items/money they didn't work to earn. Just because the people that use them then have an overabundance of materials and then decide to turn that into additional profit for themselves by selling it to other players doesn't mean bots have any sort of "work cost" on the economy.

There's really no real-life parallel to an illegal cost-free method of production within the market, is there? In real life, everything has a cost, so finding the most cost-efficient way to make your product available and obtain a profit is part of being a good businessman. In this game, the data/botting program literally has no economic cost. As long as you are willing to break the rules, you profit way more than the average player for doing no work yourself.

tdlr; this ignores the fact that bots can lead to a huge, heavily skewed amassment of private wealth, resulting in the highest class of competitively desired goods being available only to those that have this giant pool of money from their illegal activities.

I'm not even an economics major, but this argument ignores too many outside factors.

amen

[ExDarkrb]

This ignores the fact that the people running the bots benefit from selling whatever they pick up. In your example of bots as "illegal immigrants", then the bots themselves would be reaping in some sort of profit, they would have a cost to the business that uses them. In reality, bots are entirely advantageous to whoever is running them, providing a single player/group of players with items/money they didn't work to earn. Just because the people that use them then have an overabundance of materials and then decide to turn that into additional profit for themselves by selling it to other players doesn't mean bots have any sort of "work cost" on the economy.

There's really no real-life parallel to an illegal cost-free method of production within the market, is there? In real life, everything has a cost, so finding the most cost-efficient way to make your product available and obtain a profit is part of being a good businessman. In this game, the data/botting program literally has no economic cost. As long as you are willing to break the rules, you profit way more than the average player for doing no work yourself.

I'm not even an economics major, but this argument ignores too many outside factors.

um, there is an electricity cost to the botters and time to configure it but lesser time than real players really playing? And yes, i did not ignore the fact that there is profit, did i? o.O

thus, because u r not, you do not know what you are saying....

Edited by ExDarkrb, 01 July 2012 - 06:10 PM.

[baO603]

Seriously, i respect the bots more than human. Bots dont KS, they dont loot your drops either. If only botters know and set their own limitations, the world of Ragnarok would be brighter than it is now.

[Scott]

I see botting as bad overall, as it doesn't benefit each class equally. While it may cause better prices on a lot of things, it also gives specific classes one hell of a powerboost as a result.

[simeonsezz]

cant believe you're supporting bots

[Randalf]

um, there is an electricity cost to the botters and time to configure it but lesser time than real players really playing? And yes, i did not ignore the fact that there is profit, did i? o.O

Electricity is completely independent of the RO economy. Even if you want to argue that it's a cost, it's infitisemally minor. Your electricity bill doesn't increase from running more programs on your computer, by the way. Time isn't a relevant cost when it comes to botting because it returns the investment ten to hundreds of times over. You are legitimately multiplying the time a player can invest in the game by running a bot.
There's literally no private cost to running a bot. Your entire argument falls apart on that alone. It leads to massive disparity between the rich and the poor.

Edited by Randalf, 01 July 2012 - 06:14 PM.