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Why a defense cap?


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#1 champy

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 02:16 AM

Since long, i read defense formulas, i heard ppl saying max defense is around 2.7k/3k , but i didn't want to believe it!!!

until i did some testing... and it looks true : more than 3k defense is totally useless...

WHY ????

what would say dps if there was a max for damages ? or radiants if there was a max for heals ?

Now i understand why commies are such strong compared to protectors : they can easyly reach the 2.7k def...

Please do something, to give back some interest to protector, and to make new challenge for all on defense...
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#2 Ninnghizhidda

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 02:51 AM

The so called def cap mostly arises from the actual formula used to calculate damage reduction due to def. Higher values than about 2700 are not totally meaningless, just that the extra def contribution to reduction is very small. However, there still seems to be a benefit with higher def. This seems to apply in the amount of critical damage received. Although this is by no means settled and the information is rather fragmented. One example, from recent personal experience, Ruinhorn's Earth Shocks never hit me for more than 7.8K while other characters have reported values up to about 9K. One explanation I have for this is my extra def which is about 1500 more than the cap and maybe contributes in less damage recieved from critical hits.

Protectors obviously can have the highest def values, since they own the Spiritual Intensification skill. However, we should realise that this is a party support skill in addition to self, and a very beneficial one indeed. So, Protectors are valuable in parties for this contribution too. Even if something like 5000+ def doesnt have that much of an impact on themsleves. :)
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#3 Nerthu

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 02:53 AM

why cap def or resis? is pvp funny when all player have 100% resistens or defens?
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#4 Thorny

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 02:42 PM

Boo

Def is capped like resist for the obviouse reason a player still must take damage.
Have a player run around takeing zero damage due to cap def/resist would be silly.

T
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#5 Blazing

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 02:52 PM

Boo

Def is capped like resist for the obviouse reason a player still must take damage.
Have a player run around takeing zero damage due to cap def/resist would be silly.

T


I had a tank friend in season 1 who could do that at blackhands <3 :unsure:
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#6 Thorny

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 02:58 PM

Boo

Lol miss mill grinds was always fun and lot of pk.

I contrib lot of ppl on tank take zero damage more than hits due to block or what ever.
(RoL, At, SL, WS)

T
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#7 Hugh

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 04:28 PM

Since long, i read defense formulas, i heard ppl saying max defense is around 2.7k/3k , but i didn't want to believe it!!!

until i did some testing... and it looks true : more than 3k defense is totally useless...

WHY ????

what would say dps if there was a max for damages ? or radiants if there was a max for heals ?

Now i understand why commies are such strong compared to protectors : they can easyly reach the 2.7k def...

Please do something, to give back some interest to protector, and to make new challenge for all on defense...


In pvp people can use -750 def down so having more than 2.7k can still be useful, you'd want 3.4k def to stay capped.

Also, rouges soccer kick can remove def buffs so being capped with no def buffs and with -750 down on you isn't that easy.

But yea SI becomes pretty pointless apart from helping your team mates out.
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#8 sonemere

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 12:36 PM

if u plan to cap def at 2700 with buff dna etc u can easily get that extra from armors etc. know ur end armor and plan around that and itll work out save a :p_devil: ton of extra pnts in the end. also scad and cad damages go through def. u can set up 30-40% crit and rest scad cad and that extra critical damages will always apply and it makes a HUGE diff. the scad and cad is a hellava lot more lethal than ppl give it credit.
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#9 CarpD

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 10:28 PM

My friend's prot did the 2700 def went to JS.
He suffer more damage than having the def at 3000.

So the 2700 cap may not be the case.

Edited by CarpD, 06 October 2010 - 10:29 PM.

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#10 Radacci

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 01:03 PM

its not capped at 2700, it just scales very slower the higher you get.
it would only make a big impact vs raid bosses, or players that do massive damage. for normal grinding anything above 3k is a waste. but for raids maybe not.
also i think earth shock is elemental damage, not physical. if it was physical, you'd take much less damage than 7-8k as tank. btw, i think i just take around 3,5 from it as SR -.- but then again, i usually dont get hit by it, so dunno.
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#11 CarpD

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 09:11 PM

There's a major difference between 2.7K def and 3K def in JS.
And not talking about the bosses.
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#12 Ninnghizhidda

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 11:03 PM

its not capped at 2700, it just scales very slower the higher you get.
it would only make a big impact vs raid bosses, or players that do massive damage. for normal grinding anything above 3k is a waste. but for raids maybe not.
also i think earth shock is elemental damage, not physical. if it was physical, you'd take much less damage than 7-8k as tank. btw, i think i just take around 3,5 from it as SR -.- but then again, i usually dont get hit by it, so dunno.



I think I mentioned somewhere before that perhaps 2700 is not the ABSOLUTE cap, but additional defence has a very small contribution to the reduction of damage taken. Just use the actual formula and you see how little this effect is, since it is logarithmic.

I am not quite sure if Ruinhorn's Earth Shock is elemental damage. If it is, then shouldn't resistance have a large impact on damage received? Because ir seems it does not, and I have tested this to some extent, by using TB ressistance items which would boost my resistance by an additional 40% or so. Even using them the damage was more or less the same, certainly nowhere near the extra % reduction one would expect. An additional observation is that characters with low defence tend to get hit more. For example, Berzekers or Assassins who happen to be melee fighting him and caught by the Shock seem to receive more damage, and it is certain that their defence is much less than a Protector or Commander. This is especially true when Ruinhorn's skill deals critical damage.

So, overall, I am led to the conclusion that really high defence will help reduce this kind of critical damage, so having really high def values is not a waste in situations like this.
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#13 Radacci

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 12:19 AM

well, some JS boss crit a guildie for 16k, and he had capped resist....so its bugged atm. and tyrant hit me for 19k lol
but i did take less damage from edge of wind from RH, with resolute items.
like i said, im ranged, and i was only hit by quake once since they changed damage, so dunno. but im sure its bugged too.
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#14 sonemere

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 08:46 PM

well, some JS boss crit a guildie for 16k, and he had capped resist....so its bugged atm. and tyrant hit me for 19k lol
but i did take less damage from edge of wind from RH, with resolute items.
like i said, im ranged, and i was only hit by quake once since they changed damage, so dunno. but im sure its bugged too.



maybe just maybe tbf items dont work for pve resistance an only raid sets can?
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#15 TigerNinja

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 10:11 PM

Wow people can't read. Lets rephrase:

100% defense is impossible, as is 100% resistance. The difference between the two is that resistance is hard capped and defense is simply mathematically impossible. Defense runs off of a logarithmic (read: exponential) formula, so one can never reach 100%; an example of this type is cutting a room in half and then in half again and so forth- you will never run manage to run out of room to cut. This in reverse is essentially what's happening with defense; theoretically it is possible to get 99.9999999999999 repetend % reduction, the only limiting factor is that this would be at well upwards of 10,000 defense. 1k Defense is somewhere around 50% reduction I believe (don't have the numbers in front of me); 2.7k is 80% reduction. See how steeply the need for defense rises in comparison to the % of damage reduced? Now, if you can get some 20-30k defense you can have your 9x% damage reduction, but is that feasible? No, and thus we soft cap defense at around 2.7k as that is where its usefulness ends.
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#16 SkeithTTOD

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 07:08 AM

The cap is a -_- protector do really poor damage you can take hours killing a monster with high def you can resist more and the little damage you do can't be so painless...


Skeith "The Terror of Dead" the Hyper Tank!!!
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#17 Crftwise

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 01:38 AM

Bah I think skill crit and physical crit rate should be capped at 50%...
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