24 replies to this topic

[Reinhartd]

So, I was trying out a ninja on renewal and was shocked by the insane damage (over 2000) that I was doing at only level 12 with an elemental kunai with no gear. I was saddened though when I realized I can only cast it twice before running out of SP. How do ninjas keep up their SP to keep using throw kunai? Do I just need to wait till I get some points in ninja mastery (whicever one gives restore SP) or do I need to spam sp items or is there some other trick/gear to keeping up SP?

[CeruleanGamer]

Strawberries? Why do people keep asking about SP issues....

[Reinhartd]

Well I mean that's my question. Is the only way to play a throw kunai ninja effectively to spend money on SP items? Is there any combo of gear, skill or int that will balance it out without needing to drop zeny on strawberries?

[DrAzzy]

Well, you need to regen 10sp per skill use.

Forget about ninja mastery, you need to stand still for that to regen SP! Screw that, that's gonna trash your exp/hr!

So the obvious question is: How many skills per hour will you use? Well, that's a tough question isn't it?

In the old days, when 1-shot leveling was a solid way to level, 1-shot-wing leveling capped out at about 700 kills per hour (with, what was it, 400 fwings/hr?). If you're 1-shotting with TK, this would imply 7k SP/hr, assuming you play like a demon. 600 kills and 6k/hr is more realistic for people who aren't Sera. If it takes 2 casts of TK to kill, your kills/hr will likely be limited to 400 tops (there's a considerable speed advantage to 1-shotting, because you can wing as soon as the skill starts to cast - so going from 1 to 2 shots slows things down considerably), suggesting 8k SP, or at 3 kills, probably 300 kills/hr, indicating 9k SP/hr

So, we're looking at between 6 -10k SP/hr that we need in order to keep TK fed.

Now there are 450 SP regen ticks per hour. That means, if we're relying soley on natural sp regen, the necessary SP per regen tick would be:

6k/hr: 13.33
9k/hr: 20
10k/hr 22.22

Let's see how much sp per tick we can muster:

Your max SP is crapola as a ninja. 300ish at level 99 at 0 int. So since we're concerned with pre-99 levels, even if we have some +SP gear on, we're still likely looking at around 300-400 max SP during most of your career. +3-4 sp/tick

That gives us 4-5 SP regen w/0 int.

60 int would add 10 regen, bringing the total to 14-15 - regen is now in the same ballpark as SP requirements. We'd be good, as long as we killed in 2 shots, not 3. With some effort, 20 SP regen is attainable without hurting yourself too much - and bear in mind, the above numbers are steady state - the actual requirements are a bit lower, because you start a run with 100% sp, but can end at 0.

Does Throw Kunai still bypass flee? If so, this would allow you to make a pure TK Ninja with 1 dex, would it not? Freeing up lots of points for int to fuel TKing.

That's one approach.

Here's another, which I don't have a clue whether it works:

Use effects which regen SP to reduce the net cost of using SP consuming skills - stuff like Sky Deleter Card that gives SP on killing something, or the 5sp-per-attack weapon cards. Those used to totally screw you over, because they took a weapon slot that could hold a 20% card. But with weapon cards helping considerably less now, they might be an attractive option.

The question of course is whether those work with Throw Kunai. IIRC, TK is not a normal skill, so we shouldn't generalize based on that. I may play around with this myself, since that 2k damage at level 1x was enough to get me interested in making one (who am I kidding? I haven't killed a monster in 2-3 months, except for while testing my AI, which doesn't count!). So someone will need to test if it works. If something weird happens and I make it to ninja, I might even be that someone.

Finally, there is a third response to this - perhaps more compelling than either of the two above, summed up with the catchphrase... "Less QQ, more pew-pew" You just said you do >2k at level 12. Who even cares if you need to mainline blues?! You should be busy cutting a swathe through your opponents, leaving a trail of broken bodies in your path and laying low anyone who stands in your way, until all cower before you! Let your alts worry about balancing the books.

Edited by DrAzzy, 30 August 2012 - 10:41 AM.

[Reinhartd]

Wow, thanks so much for the super insightful post! Sadly I don't have much zeny on valk so I think I'm gonna have to put my ninja on hold there, but I've got more than enough on classic to keep one fueled so maybe once they're released their I might make one (though it still does sort of suck that I'd need to constantly feed him SP items to keep him going. Maybe I might opt for a gunslinger but they seem less fun (and weaker lol)).

[Facekiller]

i use throw kunai all the time and never run outta sp.... i have level 10 ninja mastery as well... and have 50 int... of course my build is different than most... but my kunai deals up to 20k damage... classic ninja wont have nearly the same damage output for throw kunai... this was something changed after renewal and the balance patch... i know certain cards work alongside TK... like hunterfly cards... you can use 3 of them on a +8 gladius for good HP regen since kunai damage can get really high... kunai element now has a major effect on damage keep that in mind...

[DrAzzy]

It's surprising how long you can go without needing to think about SP, just because YOU ONE-SHOT EVERYTHING AND LEVEL SO FAST your SP is kept full by levelups. I cleared Overlook 1-shotting everything, getting 30 to 79 and 2 marc cards and a strouf card, using only a few dozen strawberries. I did have some int, and stayed under 50% weight - but in general, yeah, it was not a problem.
That'll change at higher levels, of course.

1-30 - 15-20 mins 1-shotting the usual suspects.
30-79 - overlook, like 90 mins total
79-90 - 40 mins, 30 with HE BM in Ein dungeon 1 1-shotting pitmen and venomous, winging from everything else (with some foolishly wasted time not doing that - suspect it'd be 30 mins with HE BM, and no wasted time farting around with 2-shotting noxious)

Edited by DrAzzy, 11 September 2012 - 06:02 PM.

[CeruleanGamer]

Huuma Blaze Shuriken is a nice weapon for TK because it has so much atk. If you want a dagger, Grimtooth is good also.

[Facekiller]

for leveling id suggest a +8 triple malicious gladius... every kunai hit has a 9% chance at healing you for 45% of the damage you inflict... this cuts down on room you need for HP pots allowing you to carry more SP pots... keep in mind that weapon size matters when dealing kunai damage so use huuma for mid and large size monsters and use daggers for small size to get max killing efficiency

[DrAzzy]

for leveling id suggest a +8 triple malicious gladius... every kunai hit has a 9% chance at healing you for 45% of the damage you inflict... this cuts down on room you need for HP pots allowing you to carry more SP pots... keep in mind that weapon size matters when dealing kunai damage so use huuma for mid and large size monsters and use daggers for small size to get max killing efficiency

That makes it harder to get to 1-shot, though - and 1-shotting is key to keeping SP use down.

Trip Kingbird is probably the ideal weapon, but I don't think it'll be worth making that until I know what gear can be used on kageru/oboru (sp?). Archer skel cards aren't cheap - but neither are HFCs.

I was using +7 trip sah glad (had it lying around) for overlook. If you can 1-shot with a trip malicious, might as well - but you certainly can't in overlook. In overlook, you have to go pretty aggressive to get 1-shot (I used +20 str food for the last floor, plus full offensive gear - porcellio ninja suit + sash (for sp cost reduction), BSB set, +9 Sag Crown), and I just barely 1-shot the stroufs.

But carrying SP pots was no problem - a dozen strawberries was all I used clearing overlook, and that's because at one point, I did a floor 2-shotting one of the monsters, because I was having trouble finding my BSB.

In Ein, I ran out of SP only once, when I was killing noxiouses and also killed Ungoliant, instead of focusing on pitmen like I should have been.
Exp went faster, and SP wasn't a problem as long as I didn't waste time on stuff I couldn't 1-shot. Though I was using HE BM's there, so I was leveling faster than I otherwise would have - I think I'd have needed 20-50 strawberries if I wasn't using HE BM's - and it likely would have been a problem iwthout spotlight event exp bonus.

HP was also not a problem at all - In overlook, I used under 100 slims the whole way (I rarely got hit, because everything got cut down before it got to me), and in Ein, 50-70 (almost all due to claymores, which red-barred me).

I'm just amazed at how trivial leveling this has been. I'm not sure whether it would be easier at this point to level somewhere else, or sit in Ein 1 to 99 and take advantage of the spotlight exp.... I think it's looking like Ein 1 would be fastest at this point - hard to beat that spotlight exp boost. Think I can do 90 to 99 in one 3x BM there?

[Facekiller]

i know quad kingbird MG gives th best KS damage of all weapons with the exception to a quad kindbird Giant wheel huuma [4] depending on enemy size... the latter causes you to lose a shield tho... too bad there isnt a card that can eat sp like the hunterfly eats HP...

[Ragetsu]

Just asking but wouldn't the Dracula card be the sp card Facekiller is talking about or would it not be the same or helpful in the same way as Hunter fly

[MrTyranitar]

A Triple Kingbird Gladius or a Grimtooth are the only weapons you should consider. Alternatively, if you're not looking to spend (much), Eden's weapons are great too. In a lot of testing, I didn't find anything significant that family/element cards boost Throw Kunai. Grimtooth has the best damage output but lowers your defenses, whereas a Triple Kingbird Gladius will offer a bit less damage but no defense reduction.

[DrAzzy]

Race/Element cards definitely do boost Throw Kunai damage, seems to work just like it does for other class. I just used my old +20% carded glads. Didn't think of using the grimtooth though, should see what kind of damage that gives. .

[Riakuta]

Throw Kunai

+10 Quad Kingbird Main Gauge with 50 Str
Atk [ 300]%
(57 + [ 43 + 25%] + 20) [ 300]%
(57 + 53 + 20) [ 300]%
130 [ 300]%
390 x 3 = 1170 + 40%
1638

+7 Quad Kingbird Huuma Giant Wheel Shuriken with 50 Str
Atk [ 300]%
(57 + [ 50 + 25%] + 49) [ 300]%
(57 + 62 + 49) [ 300]%
168 [ 300]%
504 x 3 = 1512 +40%
2116

+7 Grimtooth with 50 Str

Atk [ 300]%
(57 + [ 180 + 25%] + 49) [ 300]%
(57 + 225 + 49) [ 300]%
331 [ 300]%
993 x 3
2979

Edited by Riakuta, 23 September 2012 - 12:46 PM.

[Kawaiiyui]

the best build would simpily be to go 99 int 99 str and reset after you get to lv 99, you don't need dex to hit with kunai, and you don't need vit since shed skin will protect you from everything, also with a +4 blaze humma I was one shoting everything at 99 str, also I would try wearing a Ninja Suit + Shinobi Sash combo as it will reduce skill sp cost!!!!!!

[InorganicRosiel]

i saw the leech effect while using TK at melee range x.x gotta keep that CSS up

Edited by InorganicRosiel, 24 September 2012 - 02:42 PM.

[Facekiller]

just get level 10 ninja mastery... you regen sp so fast youll never need sp items

[Viri]

Or use a dollars worth of light blues and you'll be 99 twice over? O_o

[Kawaiiyui]

LIGHT BLUES!!!! <333333 those are the reason I got to sura in a week lolz....

[dre4Me]

Someone here confirmed TK works with Hunterfly cards, what about Rideword Hat?

In case it does, and you manage to deal 10k damage - easily achievable - you would be recovering about 40 hp and 4 sp per enemy, making it a great hat for sp purposes.

Could someone confirm it?

[Riakuta]

Rideword Hat

• Adds a 5% chance to restore 8% of the damage dealt as HP to the user with each physical attack.
• Adds a 1% chance to restore 4% of the damage dealt as SP to the user with each physical attack.
• Drains 10 HP from the user every 5 seconds.
• If refined to +9:
  
• Adds an additional 8% of the damage dealt as HP to the user with each physical attack.
• Adds an additional 4% of the damage dealt as SP to the user with each physical attack.

Hunterfly Card

• Adds a 3% chance to restore 15% of the damage dealt as HP to the user with each physical attack.

These cards give a chance to recover a certain amount of damage as HP so you won't be restoring HP/SP every hit, but you will have a chance to restore HP/SP every time you cast. These effects do work with Throw Kunai as they do not cast skills, but give an effect upon attacking an enemy. They certainly will help with sustainability over time, but regarding Throw Kunai the question you have to ask is would you rather have a higher damage output or a chance to recover HP over time dependant on your damage.

[DrAzzy]

Someone here confirmed TK works with Hunterfly cards, what about Rideword Hat?

In case it does, and you manage to deal 10k damage - easily achievable - you would be recovering about 40 hp and 4 sp per enemy, making it a great hat for sp purposes.

Could someone confirm it?

If a skill works with hunterfly cards, it works with rideword hat. The SP and HP leech effects work the same way.

But the problem of SP for a TK ninja is irrelevant.

Stay underweight, and you will only have SP problems between level 15 and 30 (at which point you can enter Overlook and start leveling fast enough that the level-up exp gain will keep your SP bar full), and possibly in the late 90's if you didn't invest in much int. You can get through the 15 level rough spot early on with 10-20 kp worth of light blues, and the one in the late 90's by getting some int. Viri's claim that you could get to 99 twice with a buck of light blues is about right...

Edited by DrAzzy, 15 October 2012 - 10:51 AM.

[dre4Me]

You guys are right, I just tested it and it works with Rideword Hat indeed. I used a +7 Grimtooth, full STR/AGi build, overweight, doing 15k to Stapos and 9~10k to Muscipular/Drosera, and I my SP kept up all the time with the Sash + Ninja Suit combo. If I wasn't overweight, I wouldn't need to sit or pot blues at all with my natural, 1 INT SP regen, plus Ninja Mastery kicking in now and then.

[Facekiller]

i use a triple malicious gladius for when im out hunting... dont have to really worry about healing since with the right kunai the damage output is high enough that the hp i absorb is well over half my total HP...