Magician-->Monk-->Priest-->Invoker Skill Balance Issues

(Feel free to make another topic like this one about another class if you'd like and one hasn't already been created. But please try to keep this discussion focused on Magicians/Monks/Priests/Invokers. Thanks!)

Since a huge part of balance in this game is skill balance, I think it's reasonable to start discussing potential skill balances (both buffs and nerfs to certain skills). Since the vast majority of my time playing the game has been spent playing as a Magician/Monk/Priest/Invoker, I'll stick to what I know best and go with those classes.

Please note, the following balance suggestions are purely my opinion and subject to change based on skill balances we receive. Also, I'm not trying to state that my class is the only one that deserves buffs/nerfs to certain skills -- I wholeheartedly agree other classes could benefit from additional skill balances. I just wanted to tackle my main class, the class I know best.

Here are the skills that I feel need adjustments for the sake of balance (accompanied by my reasoning):

Magician Skills

Fortress/Cannon Upgrade: I believe the main problem with these skills is that they become totally inferior to Diffusion Cannon/Double Shot at later levels. Even upgraded to level 9 or 10 (which I've tested), the damage for Fortress is only a bit higher than normal x-spam damage. Likewise, the bleed effect and additional damage on the Cannon Upgrade skill are underpowered. I'd advise buffing both the damage and the bleed effect for these skills, perhaps. Or, as an alternative, keep the damage the same, buff the bleed effect, and add an additional (useful) status effect, like a (decent) defense debuff, or something along those lines.

Slow Heal: This skill is overpowered, plain and simple. At level 10, you can restore 75% of your max HP over 30 seconds, 7.5% every 3 seconds -- that's overkill, if you ask me. Currently, there's almost no need for Monks'/Priests' Instant/Wide Heal/HP Restore skills, because Slow Heal does the job well enough on its own. Possible fixes include increasing the MP cost, lowering the heal amount, or increasing the time between heal ticks (lowering the overall number of ticks for the full duration).

Self Heal: This skill undergoes significant changes in the New Origins patch, so I'll reserve judgment until after I get to try out the new version.

Focus: AFAIK, this skill does not utilize Max MATK in its buff calculations, as many other buff skills do in New Origins. I think that's a little unfair, if it remains that way post-patch. But we'll see.

Monk Skills

Meteor Rush: Currently, this skill removes Meteor Fall's ability to launch targets, which makes this skill a mostly pointless upgrade. I think it should still launch targets in the AoE.

Detection: Decent in PvE, but mostly pointless in PvP (except naked). IMO, decrease the debuff value from -100% MDEF to -5% or -10% MDEF, and make it use a target's maximum MDEF for the calculation rather than base MDEF.

Barbarian: This skill is fine when it hits, but that's the problem -- it doesn't take full Aim Rate into account to determine initial hit %, so it's mostly useless at higher levels, despite the fact that it's one of our very few catching skills. IMO, make the skill take full Aim Rate into account to determine initial hit % (keep the skill effect % the same, though).

Witch's Curse: Essentially the same problem as Barbarian. Doesn't take full Aim Rate into account, though it should, IMO. After all, even when you hit someone with this skill, it's canceled immediately when they are hit, and the cooldown has increased considerably in recent patches.

MP Recovery Increase: Unfortunately, this skill adds such a tiny amount to MP Recovery that it's worthless. It says it adds up to +30, but that's +30 MP Recovery %, not a flat +30 MP recovered per tick (which is what it should be, IMO, since MP Recovery already isn't terribly useful).

Wide Heal: Undergoes MP cost increase in New Origins, so holding off on commenting here.

Instant Heal: Same as Wide Heal.

Sanctuary: This skill is great at lower levels, but mostly useless at later levels. IMO, all healing skills should work off of a % of Max HP so they remain useful regardless of level. Mind you, the % of Max HP used to determine any heal amount should be reasonable, so that heals don't become overpowered.

Resurrection: Undergoes significant changes in New Origins, and it appears this will be much more effective. I'll reserve judgment, but at first glance I think the new version of this skill will be satisfactory.

Priest Skills

Staff Mastery: Same issue as Focus, uses base MATK instead of max MATK, unlike other similar buff skills after New Origins.

Blessing: Same issue as Focus and Staff Mastery.

HP Restore: I'm sort of undecided on this skill. It's awesome that it stacks with Slow Heal, but unless you have massive MATK, the heal amount is much lower in PvP. In PvE, this skill rocks, though. I'd say keep it the way it is for now, but I may change my opinion after seeing New Origins and how things balance out with respect to other classes.

Barrier/Energy Absorption: These skills are decent at low levels or if you have insanely high defense, but for most players these skills are mostly useless as the amount of damage blocked is too low. IMO, this skill should act similar to Mana Shield, in that it blocks a certain % of Physical and/or Magical Damage, but I think the % of damage blocked should be much lower for us -- I'd say 5% PDD/MDD max would be reasonable, as long as the cooldown, MP cost and cast time remained reasonable.

Arch Sanctuary: Not terribly useful, the amount of MP recovered per tick should be increased, IMO. I'd say double the amount of MP recovered, but that's just me.

Quagmire/Muddy Mud: These skills undergo significant changes in New Origins, and I'm pretty satisfied with it on paper. I'll update this once I have a chance to observe them in action post-patch.

Invoker Skills

Healing Wave: The MP cost is too high, and the movement speed is too slow while using this skill. Also, it's too easy to interrupt. I'd say revamp the skill entirely so that it acts like this: You can toggle it, move normally while it's on, and while it's on it acts like an aura that has an AoE surrounding your character. At max level, once every 5 seconds it recovers 1% Max HP for everyone in the AoE (*excluding* the caster). It can't be interrupted, but it continually drains MP (a rate of about 1% drained every 10 seconds would be adequate, IMO). In other words,if you kept it on for a full minute, you'd be trading 6% of your Max MP to heal a maximum of 12% Max HP for everyone who remains in the AoE. Basically, I envision this as a sort of tactical support skill. Also, this revamped version would *NOT* work in BSQ.

Blood Fever: I used to think this was mostly worthless. But TBH, after testing it extensively in conjunction with MP Recovery Speed-boosting items, I found that this thing is a monster if you use it correctly. The only problem I have with it is that I think the MP Recovery Speed and MP Recovery % boosts this skills provides should be buffed a bit to make it a more sensible choice. After New Origins, MP costs are likely to become a problem for our class as many of our skills have had the cost basically doubled (not just heals, but offensive skills like Spark Rock, too) -- and that's not including the MP consumed using Awakening Charge to fuel Magnet/Wraith. For this reason, I think this passive could actually prove quite useful post-patch.

Lightning Magnet: This skill currently isn't too useful when dealing with targets with high Evade Rate/MSPD, but once we get the Aim Rate fix and Quagmire/Muddy Mud buff, it should become useful again. Updated opinion to be provided post-patch.

Wraith of Heaven: This skill is nice, but IMO the stun duration should be a bit longer. Also, it states that at max level it hits 4 times, but sometimes it hits less times than that, so it's either bugged or the description is wrong.

A couple personal suggestions i'd like to throw out.

Removing slow heal from the magician tree and putting it into the Priest tree, keeping it how it is except for raising the MP cost significantly.

Striking could be changed to provide a different buff, perhaps other skills like + stats, + aim/crit damage or rate/attack speed/anything else. I find that having both striking and blessing giving physical/magical attack is very redundant(even if how the two are applied is different.)

Also perhaps increasing the duration of casting acceleration to be in line with the buff for striking/blessing would be very nice i think.

Other than the above mentioned. I think you hit the nail on the head of Priest issues pretty darn well. Kudos for a well thought out analysis/suggestion.

Edited by Endbringer, 30 August 2011 - 02:58 PM.

A couple personal suggestions i'd like to throw out.

Removing slow heal from the magician tree and putting it into the Priest tree, keeping it how it is except for raising the MP cost significantly.

Striking could be changed to provide a different buff, perhaps other skills like + stats, + aim/crit damage or rate/attack speed/anything else. I find that having both striking and blessing giving physical/magical attack is very redundant(even if how the two are applied is different.)

Also perhaps increasing the duration of casting acceleration to be in line with the buff for striking/blessing would be very nice i think.

Other than the above mentioned. I think you hit the nail on the head of Priest issues pretty darn well. Kudos for a well thought out analysis/suggestion.

Regarding Slow Heal: Yeah, I really hate the fact that currently Slow Heal is by far the most useful healing skill, and yet both mage classes get to use it. This essentially takes away from the role of invokers, since sorcerers can basically heal just as effectively as they can in most situations. What's the point of playing a healing class that has so few offensive talents when you could play a damage-dealing mage class that can also heal and tank ridiculous damage? Invokers should get more support skills, like creative new buffs/debuffs, and sorcerers should get more heavy-damage AoE skills, IMO.

Regarding Striking: Really like the idea to have it increase CD/CR instead of add damage, as long as it would remain reasonable and fair (maybe have it add 5% absolute critical rate and 25% critical damage at max level).

Regarding Casting Acceleration: I think the duration is pretty fair, personally, since some of our other skills (like blessing) get longer durations in this patch. Even when it runs out, it's only a 20 second wait for it to be ready to cast again, which isn't too bad.

Thanks for the feedback, Endu.

though I do agree that it sounds very inbalanced to let the attack mage have slow heal, I noticed the monk/priest/invoker population far outnumbers their population... so unless they get some, like you said, stronger AoE's or something, it would be kinda mean to take that away from them

I also agree that invokers don't get nearly enough buffs. We have striking. But that's pretty much it. As a support class, there should be some other useful supporting skills.

Cannot stress enough how I hate blessing/other skills buffing your base rather than max. Buffing base really doesn't do much help, I thought it was a glitch or something when I first tested it out. Would really like this to be changed to max.

Personally I think casting acceleration is pretty sucky atm. Especially when compared to a paladin's time reversal(?) Not only do I find it inconvinient that CA's cool down is 20 seconds longer than its buff time, but it doesn't do nearly as much as time reversal. Time reversal reduces cool down as well as casting, making casting acceleration a pretty useless skill when being compared. Time reversal makes wide heal / spark rock instant ....it's pretty sexy. It completely negates casting acceleration. I dunno, I'm not raging over CA skill or anything, just saying IMO it's weird to have two skills that basically do the same thing on two different classes in a game but have one be suckier than the other. And the suckier one is on the supposed support class, no less. But again, just my opinion.

hey now, im a sorcerer and i admit slow heal is OP.

but i still love having invoker in my party especially when i fight paris and the invoker went PvE build.

gotta love that MP charge skill, i dunno what its called.

true that time reverse is better than casting acceleration, but casting acceleration stuck with the character whereas time reverse doesn't since u have to be close to the paladins. so, thats another plus for casting acceleration dont u think?

hey now, im a sorcerer and i admit slow heal is OP.

but i still love having invoker in my party especially when i fight paris and the invoker went PvE build.

gotta love that MP charge skill, i dunno what its called.

true that time reverse is better than casting acceleration, but casting acceleration stuck with the character whereas time reverse doesn't since u have to be close to the paladins. so, thats another plus for casting acceleration dont u think?

it's sad that as OP as slow heal is ... I don't have it lol

i can only think of two MP charge skills atm, MP transfer and Sanctuary for MP (dome comes up and heals MP)

yeah that is a plus that it's an actual buff, i'm not entirely sure but i don't think any other class benefits from classing acceleration too much though? whereas time reverse is mucho beneficial

You forgot that detection also reveals burrowed and invisible enemies but it is still affected by the aim/evade.

Personally I think casting acceleration is pretty sucky atm. Especially when compared to a paladin's time reversal(?) Not only do I find it inconvinient that CA's cool down is 20 seconds longer than its buff time, but it doesn't do nearly as much as time reversal. Time reversal reduces cool down as well as casting, making casting acceleration a pretty useless skill when being compared. Time reversal makes wide heal / spark rock instant ....it's pretty sexy. It completely negates casting acceleration. I dunno, I'm not raging over CA skill or anything, just saying IMO it's weird to have two skills that basically do the same thing on two different classes in a game but have one be suckier than the other. And the suckier one is on the supposed support class, no less. But again, just my opinion.

Actually, Casting Acceleration is quite useful even as it is now. It lowers the cast time just enough to make skills like Spark Rock and Wide Heal useful without making them instant-cast (which would be overpowered, at least for Wide Heal, IMO).

hey now, im a sorcerer and i admit slow heal is OP.

but i still love having invoker in my party especially when i fight paris and the invoker went PvE build.

gotta love that MP charge skill, i dunno what its called.

true that time reverse is better than casting acceleration, but casting acceleration stuck with the character whereas time reverse doesn't since u have to be close to the paladins. so, thats another plus for casting acceleration dont u think?

I believe you mean either Arch Sanctuary or MP Transfer. And sure, invokers are definitely useful for their healing capabilities. But there are very few instances -- in PvP or PvE -- where our more powerful healing spells (Instant/Wide Heal) are actually necessary. In most cases, stacking some defense and throwing on Slow Heal (+ learning how to dodge attacks somewhat) is more than enough to stay alive in most situations.

it's sad that as OP as slow heal is ... I don't have it lol

i can only think of two MP charge skills atm, MP transfer and Sanctuary for MP (dome comes up and heals MP)

yeah that is a plus that it's an actual buff, i'm not entirely sure but i don't think any other class benefits from classing acceleration too much though? whereas time reverse is mucho beneficial

You should definitely get Slow Heal. It's probably the single most useful mage skill in the game.

Casting Acceleration actually benefits many other classes:
-It makes Stumblebum instant-cast.
-It makes Wood Rush a quick cast (possibly instant after the New Origins cast time change).
-It's useful for several sorcerer and summoner skills, like Snow Blues.

There are more examples, but that's just to give a general idea.

You forgot that detection also reveals burrowed and invisible enemies but it is still affected by the aim/evade.

Not sure what you mean, Thuy. I know what the skill does, but I don't really think those effects need to be changed.

i am not sure... I totally disagree with some new game balance... And yes, priest was nerfed alot, Gravity must fix it.
But quit slow heal from mages means "no hope against lock, air lock or aas", because mages can't stack evade or block rate like some classes in game...

Perhaps slow heal should return to lvl 5 as max and heal only the user in pvp...

i am not sure... I totally disagree with some new game balance... And yes, priest was nerfed alot, Gravity must fix it.
But quit slow heal from mages means "no hope against lock, air lock or aas", because mages can't stack evade or block rate like some classes in game...

Perhaps slow heal should return to lvl 5 as max and heal only the user in pvp...

I agree with Bicho. Completely removing slow heal from warmage is not the best solution. I believe slow heal is still an essential skill for warmage in bsq and pvp, as long as one doesn't abuse it. I like the idea of having slow heal kept at level 5. Also, I kind of have to disagree with rim's post. Instant heal is more frequently used in bsq than slow heal. Priest relies mostly on instant heal rather than slow heal. I've seen many priests used instant heal after they were released from paladin's lock, and they would use slow heal as a support skill right after. I have a warmage myself; the only time I would slow heal in pvp is at the beginning of a match or when my hp is below 10%, depending on the players on the opposing team. Against lower level players, I don't heal, but against overly stacked players who are 10 to 15 levels above my level, such as dragooon and overlord, I have no choice but to use heal more than once, in order to secure my hp.

Instead of removing it make Slow Heal heal a maximum of 25% HP and add another skill in the priest skilltree that buffs it to 50%?

I dunno about the numbers but Wizards would keep slowheal and Priests would get a slightly less OP version.

I agree with Bicho. Completely removing slow heal from warmage is not the best solution. I believe slow heal is still an essential skill for warmage in bsq and pvp, as long as one doesn't abuse it. I like the idea of having slow heal kept at level 5. Also, I kind of have to disagree with rim's post. Instant heal is more frequently used in bsq than slow heal. Priest relies mostly on instant heal rather than slow heal. I've seen many priests used instant heal after they were released from paladin's lock, and they would use slow heal as a support skill right after. I have a warmage myself; the only time I would slow heal in pvp is at the beginning of a match or when my hp is below 10%, depending on the players on the opposing team. Against lower level players, I don't heal, but against overly stacked players who are 10 to 15 levels above my level, such as dragooon and overlord, I have no choice but to use heal more than once, in order to secure my hp.

When I say Instant Heal isn't really necessary, I suppose I'm speaking from the perspective of a high-defense character who can usually survive using only Slow Heal. But you bring up a good point, thanks for your input.

Instead of removing it make Slow Heal heal a maximum of 25% HP and add another skill in the priest skilltree that buffs it to 50%?

I dunno about the numbers but Wizards would keep slowheal and Priests would get a slightly less OP version.

Shouldn't it be priests who get the slightly *more* OP version? They are the healing class, after all.

Instead of removing it make Slow Heal heal a maximum of 25% HP and add another skill in the priest skilltree that buffs it to 50%?

I doubt if that is going to happen. =]

I dunno about the numbers but Wizards would keep slowheal and Priests would get a slightly less OP version.

Stacked warmages don't usually rely on slow heal in pvp. They can do fine without much slow healing. The ones that abuse slow heal are usually the ones that have less pdef/mdef or less health compared to the average pvpers. (just my opinion)

In addition, priests have more than 3 healing skills, including instant heal. Instant heal is more effective than slow heal, and they can choose which one to use or not use heal at all, depending on a few factors. However, warmages only have one type of heal, which is slow heal. I don't get why you pointed out that "[priest] would get a slightly less OP version." It's just a matter of their choice.

When I say Instant Heal isn't really necessary, I suppose I'm speaking from the perspective of a high-defense character who can usually survive using only Slow Heal. But you bring up a good point, thanks for your input.

I see.

What is your standard of "high defense"? I'm assuming around 8k to 12k? (for mage class)
Also, I don't see a lot of stacked mages in pvp recently. =/

Slightly less OP than the 75% via level 10 Card is what I meant.

My thought was something more like
Mage
Level 5 Slow Heal +20%
Level 10 Slow Heal +15%

Priest
Level 5 Slow Heal buff + 15%

So you'd have to stack skill points and cards to get a 50% heal in xyz seconds for priest and wizard.

I don't know about how balanced this thought would end up tho.

Edited by Himeyasha, 04 September 2011 - 01:24 AM.

I see.

What is your standard of "high defense"? I'm assuming around 8k to 12k? (for mage class)
Also, I don't see a lot of stacked mages in pvp recently. =/

Yeah, I'd say 8-12K defense is pretty stacked for a priest. I should clarify that I understand not everyone will be able to achieve that kind of defense currently. Sometimes I just lose sight of the fact that I've had more time and opportunity than most to build up my gear.

I think the mage class is going through a period of "limited popularity" in PvP right now -- priests, especially, because they've been hit with some major nerfs in recent patches. The nerf to Double Shot, in particular, has enraged some priests, including a few I know -- but TBH, it's just an inconvenience, not a major issue. I believe this change was implemented mostly to help prevent botting with priests' x-spam.

I should note that since some classes (especially warriors) got major damage buffs and some nice new high-damage skills, I've a feeling that priest heals will become more important in EW/BSQ. The same applies to the Elga dungeon -- having a priest with Instant Heal and Resurrection seems to be practically a necessity in there, for now.

Regardless, IMO, it's hard to say that being able to "passively" heal 75% (or even 50%) of your maximum HP in just 30 seconds isn't OP. You say you usually only use it when you're below 10% HP, but considering it will only take 30 seconds for you to recover nearly all of the HP you lost, it can still play a major factor in deciding the match.

EDIT: @Hime: Ah, I understand. That seems like a reasonable suggestion.

Edited by Rimmy, 04 September 2011 - 01:37 AM.

Yeah, I'd say 8-12K defense is pretty stacked for a priest. I should clarify that I understand not everyone will be able to achieve that kind of defense currently. Sometimes I just lose sight of the fact that I've had more time and opportunity than most to build up my gear.

I think the mage class is going through a period of "limited popularity" in PvP right now -- priests, especially, because they've been hit with some major nerfs in recent patches. The nerf to Double Shot, in particular, has enraged some priests, including a few I know -- but TBH, it's just an inconvenience, not a major issue. I believe this change was implemented mostly to help prevent botting with priests' x-spam.

I should note that since some classes (especially warriors) got major damage buffs and some nice new high-damage skills, I've a feeling that priest heals will become more important in EW/BSQ. The same applies to the Elga dungeon -- having a priest with Instant Heal and Resurrection seems to be practically a necessity in there, for now.

Regardless, IMO, it's hard to say that being able to "passively" heal 75% (or even 50%) of your maximum HP in just 30 seconds isn't OP. You say you usually only use it when you're below 10% HP, but considering it will only take 30 seconds for you to recover nearly all of the HP you lost, it can still play a major factor in deciding the match.

EDIT: @Hime: Ah, I understand. That seems like a reasonable suggestion.

I think slow heal is not the major problem Rimmy... Slow heal comes from the early of dragonica as a unfair defense against unfair ppl...
At least in my case... I dont like use slow heal except when i was in a pro lock of 3 minutes at pvp... Or when i was aas locked for a long time... Or sleep when my teammates are dying...

I like slow heal when i am in pve mode for help my friends... Or when i am in pvp with another healer in the opposite team (it makes more long and fun the pvp).

I think the mayor problem here is Priest was TOTALLY nerfed... For exemple double shoot time effect is only 3 minutes... At least the must put 15 minutes... 3 Minutes is nothing at pve, priest must cast and cast and cast that skill many times wasting alot of MP and alot of patience after a long time, they forgot that priest have not enough atak skills and depent totally of that skill...

Ohh well, i am agree with they must fix priest skill tree but i am disagree with nerf other class in order to do better priest compared with warlock.

Yeah Bicho, I agree that the 4-minute duration on Double Shot is way too short, considering it's our main damage skill, as you said.

Yeah Bicho, I agree that the 4-minute duration on Double Shot is way too short, considering it's our main damage skill, as you said.

PFs Aiming is 1m30s. and it's our main aim/cr skill =/
edit: point is you just gotta live with it sometimes..

Edited by StormHaven, 04 September 2011 - 08:08 PM.

You can't really compare the two, IMO. PFs can still do decent damage even without that skill, while Double Shot is practically essential to even do moderately well in PvE.

You can't really compare the two, IMO. PFs can still do decent damage even without that skill, while Double Shot is practically essential to even do moderately well in PvE.

You can somewhat... but PFs lose a huge amount of DPS from not having Aiming up, and having to reuse it every minute takes away from chances to attack also. You guys can still X-spam and you have 4minutes before you have to recast..

Edited by StormHaven, 04 September 2011 - 08:24 PM.

If the developer touches my slow heal I might just flip a .

My main is Sorcerer, but i also have lvl 43 priest. My priest rarely uses slow heal. Usually only use instant heal for healing. But for my WM, slow is one of the most important skill to survive. Erasing it from WM is really not a good idea.

I see your point and agree that priest should be better in supporting than WM. But when u want to nerf slow heal, should also consider that slow heal is a MAGICIANs skill. So, must consider the low level player. Magician whose defense and evade is lower than other class should be able to "survive" with slow heal (especially new players who are still learning to play DS, or the player who cant play well). The current slow heal is balance for them imo.

For end-game player, slow heal can be OP depends on their build. I partied with a priest, and it was like our role was reversed.... she was the main killer (because she can kill much faster), and i was the healer with slow heal because i have much more HP than her... So, the reversed role problem is not because of slow heal, but also because of Priests high DPS. Sure, sorcerer have nice AoE skills, but they are slow. Not the casting time, but the movement when they cast the skill (this movement also make the skill kinda risky sometimes ).

One idea to "fix" this reversed role is... reduce the area of slow heal. Sorcerer should also have a healing skill but it is more likely for her/himself. Meanwhile, priests healing skills should be more "friendly", can heal her/his party effectively. Was thinking to make slow heal not an AoE skill, but then it will discourage low level magician/monk/battlemage to party with other players. So, decreasing its area is enough i think.

Yea I guess my main concern [pre patch] with my invoker was that there were so many healing skills and I only used two.

Slow heal and restore stacked is quite OP [both level 5] so much so that I never used any other healing skill [bd anyone?]. One tick on restore was enough to restore the HPs of instant heal because it used my magical atk power [me like] and slow heal restored about 5% per tick not sure. If I kept both up all the time I was not dying, nor were any party members. I think the issue is how fast you can cast both and how often. Add a 15 second cooldown time to both?

Post patch I have unfortunately started a warmage.. Mainly because my invoker is 68 and it's becomming boring, sure mud is fun to use now I guess but I'm not a pvper and pveing with the invoker became a little stale after the patch.

One idea to "fix" this reversed role is... reduce the area of slow heal. Sorcerer should also have a healing skill but it is more likely for her/himself.

We have self heal, which would be more than sufficient by itself for heals. I strongly feel that slow heal should be a priest only skill and taken away from Sorcerers. On the same token, i also strongly feel that Sorcerers should pack a bit more of a punch due to losing said skill.