Public Service Announcement: Do not assume Knights are better tanks than Warriors

I just want to make sure that players who enjoy playing the role of a dedicated tank don't automatically promote to knight, thinking that it's the obvious choice. This is a mistake that I would have definitely made had I not first done some research and learned that Warriors actually wind up with better tanking stats in every category(yes, even defense) once endgame gear is in play.

Why is this? To understand, you first have to take a look at the Warrior's tanking skills, and the Knight's tanking skills.

Knights have access to Aura Heal, Aura Shield, and their only redeeming ability, Shield Fortress. Their AOE is Grand Cross. Warriors get Tension Relax, Parrying, Endure, and Defender. Their AOE is Brandish Storm. Right off the bat, you can see that something is off. Warriors get 4 different skills that help them mitigate damage, while knights only get 3.

Lets look at the skills themselves.

Knights get Aura Hea 3/3: Cast the power of the Aura to a target and recover HP equivalent to Attack Power x 0.06 per overlapped Aura. 20 second cooldown.
Now, I haven't actually used this, but from what I've read online, it's an absolutely awful skill and not even worth investing points in to.

The warrior equivalent is Tension Relax 3/3: Suppress Rage and loosen tension to recover HP by the amount of overlapped Rage remaining. Max 60% for 20 sec. This skill consumes any remaining Rage. 120 second cooldown.
With 3/3 skill points invested, this gives the warrior a 60% heal over time. Now THIS is a useful heal. If it weren't for the 120 second cooldown, this ability would be game breaking!

5/5 points in the knight ability Aura Shield: Concentrate Aura on your shield for 10 sec. to decrease damage received by 20%. 60 second cooldown.
Alright! Something useful for Knights! I can definitely see this ability saving your skin in a tight situation.

5/5 points in the Warrior ability Parrying: Increase Parry Rate by 40% for 10 sec. 60 second cooldown.
Another potential life saver! Now this is what class balance should look like. Abilities that are different, but neither one is blatantly stronger.

5/5 points in the Knight's signature ability, Shield Fortress: Decrease damage received by 50%. Damage taken by all Party and Raid members within a 20m range also decreases by 25% for 10 sec. Cannot move or perform any other action while using Shield Fortress. 120 second cooldown.
Alright! This is probably the most powerful defensive cooldown in the game. Not only will it keep your butt alive, but nearby party/raid members get 25% damage reduction as well. I can't deny it. Once every 2 minutes, Knights get to be better tanks than warriors. Its only downside is that the knight has to stand still channeling the ability for its duration. This could be a problem if after you start casting, the boss decides to leave a nice pool of lava at your feet.

The Warrior counterpart is Endure. At 5/5: Damage taken is reduced 40% for 10 sec. 120 second cooldown.
It's still a good ability, but is simply outshined by Shield Fortress. Being able to move around and fight while it's active is a plus, but Knights win this round.

Let's look at Area of Effect attacks next.

Knights get Grand Cross 3/3: "Slam your sword into the ground releasing Aura on the surface to inflict 22% damage to a max. 10 surrounding enemies. This skill is most effective when used on more than 3 enemies, however, the effect is reduced when used on more than 6 enemies." 0 second cooldown.
Hey, it get's the job done, and it's definitely better than what Beastmasters and Monks have. One downside is that like Shield Fortress, you have to stand still while using this ability.

The Warrior equivalent is Brandish Storm 3/3: "Create a storm with your sword to inflict 32% damage to a max. 10 surrounding enemies. This skill is most effective when used on more than 3 enemies, however, damage is reduced when used on more than 6 enemies." 0 second cooldown.
Not only does this version do more damage, Warriors can move around while using it. This makes add control a lot easier and even makes it possible to kite certain enemies. Grand Cross literally has nothing on this ability. The Warrior version is better in every way.

Let's tally the scores.
Healing: Warriors win this one, hands down.
Aura Shield vs Parry: This one's a draw.
Shield Fortress vs Endure: This one goes to Knights.
Grand Cross vs Brandish Storm: Warriors, no contest.

So far it's Knights:1, Warriors: 2

To make up for not receiving the defense stat bonus of a shield(everything except the defense bonus is already compensated for via extra stats on 2 handed swords), Warriors get access to a fourth defensive skill known as Defender. With 5/5 points: "Defense, Dodge and Parry are increased 30% but Attack Power decreases 10%.
This buff lasts indefinitely until you cancel it. This instantly gives warriors the edge over knights in the parry and dodge department, but they'll still be trailing behind them in terms of flat defense rating.

Now, like me, you may be thinking "Ok, whatever, Warriors are avoidance tanks and Knights are flat defense tanks. I'm ok with that".

Because Defender is a scaling ability, there is actually a point in gear progression when a warrior tank will have higher defense(in addition to sky high parry and dodge) than equally geared Knights. Unless they decide to start putting absolutely ridiculously defense values on shields, this gap will only grow as new content is released.

This gear threshold has already been reached by many on the Korean servers where they've acknowledged Warriors as the kings of endgame tanking. Not because of self healing, not because of increased mobility, not because of higher DPS(and thus threat), and not because they value avoidance more than defense, but because of overwhelming superiority in all categories. The single exception to this rule is Shield Fortress.

Now all of this doesn't mean that Knights aren't a viable option. They are. Shield Fortress is a very attractive ability, and not everyone is interested in getting endgame gear. I just created this post so that people like me that were attracted to the "class with the shield" know what they're actually getting in to. I don't want people to regret their choice and have to start a new character(or worse, quit) once they find out the facts.

tl;dr version: Warriors are kings of endgame tanking. This isn't what I expected, and I don't want others to make the mistake of assuming that Knights will always have better tanking stats.

Has been stated many times over. Knights are a great go-to tank and are pretty consistent throughout all parts of the game [Start/Mid/Endgame/Late Endgame] (equalized tanking potential on all stages). Warriors on the other hand start off a bit low, but catch up (and eventually surpass the other tanks) the further you go into the game (greatest tank potential basically).

Off-note: Shhhh you're going to cause an even larger warrior spike on launch. (Nice post by the way)

Edited by Shouichirou, 27 April 2013 - 11:32 PM.

I don't understand why you think parrying > migitation dmg reduce %.

If the warrior doesn't parry for the whole 10 seconds, the cooldown was useless. Now I'm not sure if the parry value of base/eq stats + defender + the cd is mult or add. But still dmg % reduce isn't a question of rng.

Also parry is only physical avoidance compared to aura shield which seems to be magical/physical mitigation. If they ever design an encounter in the future in which the boss only casts Arcane bolt at it's main target for it's main attack, warriors cd will really be useless.

Maybe you saw korean warriors top to ~100% parry with cd popped, in which case the cooldown would be a total(close) invulnerability against physical for 10 seconds, I can't vouch for that.

Also if the knight pops shield fortress while he knows something is coming underneath/at him, and trust me bosses skills aren't that random. It's mostly a question of bad player skills/knowledge. Even though sometimes it could be something that's unavoidable, you can just toggle shield fortress off and move away.

Right now what we see isn't what we might get in the future, they could decide to nerf defender to 15% instead of 30%. Before everyone starts jumping on the warrior wagon, remind yourself that this could happen.

Edited by Alvana, 28 April 2013 - 12:56 PM.

Parry applies to both physical and magical attacks in the sense that it halves the damage received (assuming it even procs). That all I really have to say currently.

Aura Heal is quite up to par. You need to stop looking at percents and also factor in cooldown.

Well if that's really the case and you can crank up parry to a high % it's no wonder warriors are stupidly overpowered tanks in kRO.

[Aura Heal] is pretty up there. Thing is its mostly an asset towards a dps knight (with a respectable attack value). Quoting a previous response from myself regarding [Aura Heal];

Going to elaborate more on [Aura Heal] here for future reference.

• [Aura Heal] can in fact register as a "critical hit". Meaning . . assuming it does register as one, the heal would be at least 2x more effective.
• [Aura Heal] heals your knight based on x% of your current attack power. So a 2.5k attack power with Lv3 [Aura Heal] would heal for ~450hp (assuming you used all 3 auras). With this in mind, [Aura Heal] can only be seen as "useful" towards a "dps-knight". Notably one that uses [Aura Blade], [Concentration] and [Battle Tactics].
• To answer the previous. Yes, [Aura Heal] IS affected by [Battle Tactics]. SHOULD one land a "critical" with [Aura Heal] while employing this [Passive Skill], the "heal" should be under a magnification effect.
• As stated above, [Aura Heal] is more suitable to the "rare" dps-knight. Meaning they should have somewhat amassed vigor/haste gears (which in turn should reduce the [Aura Heal] cool-down).
• Despite going for what is stated above, it would be advisable to invest points on [Shield Fortress]. Sure, you may have rolled as "dps-knight", but having that extra [Shield Fortress] may put some people more at ease.

All in all, if your actually looking to use [Aura Heal], you may as well invest on the other dps skills in order to make that "heal" more effective.

Basically, a well geared Knight with [Concentration] may be able to reach the 2.5~3k attack range. Whilst employing skills like [Battle Tactics] and focusing into [Critical Hits], they can theoretically trump a warrior's [Tension Relax] assuming they land enough critical-[Aura Heals] in the allotted time.

Thing is, this is a dps-knight and not a tank-knight (what this topic is pointing to). Although a dps-knight specced correctly "may" be able to trump [Tension Relax] sometimes, a tank-knight most likely could not be able to do the same. Tank-Knight attack values tend to hover around 15xx~25xx (let alone proccing enough [Critical Hits] or employing [Battle Tactics]).

Yuck...

Edited by ODKN, 28 April 2013 - 05:19 PM.

Remember that in this game, you can't trust any freaking tooltips/skill description.


But anyway yes, attack power % is written on the aura heal tooltip.

http://www.ro2base.c...1.1.1/0.0.0.0.0

Edited by Alvana, 28 April 2013 - 05:16 PM.

[Aura Heal] is basically based on your "attack" like any other skill, lol.

If you were to have Lv2 [Aura Heal] (heals 4% per accrued Aura) and use all 3 auras (for a total of 12%) assuming 1000 attack. Your heal would be around "12% of 1000", or ~120hp (non-crit).

Edited by Shouichirou, 28 April 2013 - 05:21 PM.

I just want to make sure that players who enjoy playing the role of a dedicated tank don't automatically promote to knight, thinking that it's the obvious choice. This is a mistake that I would have definitely made had I not first done some research and learned that Warriors actually wind up with better tanking stats in every category(yes, even defense) once endgame gear is in play.

Why is this? To understand, you first have to take a look at the Warrior's tanking skills, and the Knight's tanking skills.

Knights have access to Aura Heal, Aura Shield, and their only redeeming ability, Shield Fortress. Their AOE is Grand Cross. Warriors get Tension Relax, Parrying, Endure, and Defender. Their AOE is Brandish Storm. Right off the bat, you can see that something is off. Warriors get 4 different skills that help them mitigate damage, while knights only get 3.

Lets look at the skills themselves.

Knights get Aura Hea 3/3: Cast the power of the Aura to a target and recover HP equivalent to Attack Power x 0.06 per overlapped Aura. 20 second cooldown.
Now, I haven't actually used this, but from what I've read online, it's an absolutely awful skill and not even worth investing points in to.

The warrior equivalent is Tension Relax 3/3: Suppress Rage and loosen tension to recover HP by the amount of overlapped Rage remaining. Max 60% for 20 sec. This skill consumes any remaining Rage. 120 second cooldown.
With 3/3 skill points invested, this gives the warrior a 60% heal over time. Now THIS is a useful heal. If it weren't for the 120 second cooldown, this ability would be game breaking!

5/5 points in the knight ability Aura Shield: Concentrate Aura on your shield for 10 sec. to decrease damage received by 20%. 60 second cooldown.
Alright! Something useful for Knights! I can definitely see this ability saving your skin in a tight situation.

5/5 points in the Warrior ability Parrying: Increase Parry Rate by 40% for 10 sec. 60 second cooldown.
Another potential life saver! Now this is what class balance should look like. Abilities that are different, but neither one is blatantly stronger.

5/5 points in the Knight's signature ability, Shield Fortress: Decrease damage received by 50%. Damage taken by all Party and Raid members within a 20m range also decreases by 25% for 10 sec. Cannot move or perform any other action while using Shield Fortress. 120 second cooldown.
Alright! This is probably the most powerful defensive cooldown in the game. Not only will it keep your butt alive, but nearby party/raid members get 25% damage reduction as well. I can't deny it. Once every 2 minutes, Knights get to be better tanks than warriors. Its only downside is that the knight has to stand still channeling the ability for its duration. This could be a problem if after you start casting, the boss decides to leave a nice pool of lava at your feet.

The Warrior counterpart is Endure. At 5/5: Damage taken is reduced 40% for 10 sec. 120 second cooldown.
It's still a good ability, but is simply outshined by Shield Fortress. Being able to move around and fight while it's active is a plus, but Knights win this round.

Let's look at Area of Effect attacks next.

Knights get Grand Cross 3/3: "Slam your sword into the ground releasing Aura on the surface to inflict 22% damage to a max. 10 surrounding enemies. This skill is most effective when used on more than 3 enemies, however, the effect is reduced when used on more than 6 enemies." 0 second cooldown.
Hey, it get's the job done, and it's definitely better than what Beastmasters and Monks have. One downside is that like Shield Fortress, you have to stand still while using this ability.

The Warrior equivalent is Brandish Storm 3/3: "Create a storm with your sword to inflict 32% damage to a max. 10 surrounding enemies. This skill is most effective when used on more than 3 enemies, however, damage is reduced when used on more than 6 enemies." 0 second cooldown.
Not only does this version do more damage, Warriors can move around while using it. This makes add control a lot easier and even makes it possible to kite certain enemies. Grand Cross literally has nothing on this ability. The Warrior version is better in every way.

Let's tally the scores.
Healing: Warriors win this one, hands down.
Aura Shield vs Parry: This one's a draw.
Shield Fortress vs Endure: This one goes to Knights.
Grand Cross vs Brandish Storm: Warriors, no contest.

So far it's Knights:1, Warriors: 2

To make up for not receiving the defense stat bonus of a shield(everything except the defense bonus is already compensated for via extra stats on 2 handed swords), Warriors get access to a fourth defensive skill known as Defender. With 5/5 points: "Defense, Dodge and Parry are increased 30% but Attack Power decreases 10%.
This buff lasts indefinitely until you cancel it. This instantly gives warriors the edge over knights in the parry and dodge department, but they'll still be trailing behind them in terms of flat defense rating.

Now, like me, you may be thinking "Ok, whatever, Warriors are avoidance tanks and Knights are flat defense tanks. I'm ok with that".

Because Defender is a scaling ability, there is actually a point in gear progression when a warrior tank will have higher defense(in addition to sky high parry and dodge) than equally geared Knights. Unless they decide to start putting absolutely ridiculously defense values on shields, this gap will only grow as new content is released.

This gear threshold has already been reached by many on the Korean servers where they've acknowledged Warriors as the kings of endgame tanking. Not because of self healing, not because of increased mobility, not because of higher DPS(and thus threat), and not because they value avoidance more than defense, but because of overwhelming superiority in all categories. The single exception to this rule is Shield Fortress.

Now all of this doesn't mean that Knights aren't a viable option. They are. Shield Fortress is a very attractive ability, and not everyone is interested in getting endgame gear. I just created this post so that people like me that were attracted to the "class with the shield" know what they're actually getting in to. I don't want people to regret their choice and have to start a new character(or worse, quit) once they find out the facts.

tl;dr version: Warriors are kings of endgame tanking. This isn't what I expected, and I don't want others to make the mistake of assuming that Knights will always have better tanking stats.

I think you have some misconception here. Yes, warrior has all the buffs from Defender, no doubt. But there is a few things you need to consider.1) End game AoE is irrelevant on bosses. On normal trash mob, sure but who cares about trash mobs. They are irrelevant. To deal with bosses' swarm, you spam potion. And continue focus the boss. If you are a tank that uses Grand Cross or Brandish Storm to deal with boss' swarm, then you are a terrible tank.2) Warrior will always remain as secondary wanted tank and Knight will always remain as the most wanted tank in Raid. RHD doesn't really matter though, any decent tank can do RHD but in Raid a Warrior CANNOT replace a Knight. Even if that Knight is off tank, no one in their right mind will take a Warrior instead. This is due to Shield Fortress. It is just that important. When bosses in Raid AoE for 5000+, you need to time Shield Fortress at the right moment. Knight can replace a Warrior in Raid but every raid must have at least 1 or more Knight.

I say let everyone play whatever.

Endgame, there are certain situations where you'll still want a knight as main tank due to shield fortress being a must for unavoidable damage mitigation.

Besides, if we warriors are few, then it can only help us get parties.

I have played both classes, and personally I will roll a Knight first. Not because I do not love Warriors, but I like the look and feel of the Knight class.
After that, I am also making a full on Warrior tank though!
Both are viable, while the Warrior requires more gear in order to play it safely in a raid environment it DEFINITELY pays off in the end

Knight makes a way better OT than Warriors hands down. You can have a warrior do a bit of OT. But when a major AoE comes up, they have nothing to protect the party but themselves. However, they are the perfect troll class.

This is a pretty common discussion, and since a lot has been already said in my guide, through other people's posts, as well as here, but I thought I'd respond anyway.

I believe that warriors have the potential to be the strongest tanks in the game, since their kit and overall playstyle scales very well in the late end-game (Tier 2 Raids+). However, this doesn't make them the best tank. In my opnion, Knights are the best tank class, simply because they're the most well rounded (Has Good AoE Control, Extra Padding/Stats with a shield, a clutch defense skill in brandish storm, decent threat control, and great overall defensive abilities), AND because they're the SAFEST tank class from start to finish? What do I mean by this? It means as soon as they hit lv25, they're capable of tanking whatever they're suppose to tank at that lvl. This, to me, makes knights the most reliable no matter what the case may be. Warriors are fragile pre-50, and struggle a little but during RHD and Tier 1 Raids, compared to the other tanks.

I think you have some misconception here. Yes, warrior has all the buffs from Defender, no doubt. But there is a few things you need to consider.1) End game AoE is irrelevant on bosses. On normal trash mob, sure but who cares about trash mobs. They are irrelevant. To deal with bosses' swarm, you spam potion. And continue focus the boss. If you are a tank that uses Grand Cross or Brandish Storm to deal with boss' swarm, then you are a terrible tank.2) Warrior will always remain as secondary wanted tank and Knight will always remain as the most wanted tank in Raid. RHD doesn't really matter though, any decent tank can do RHD but in Raid a Warrior CANNOT replace a Knight. Even if that Knight is off tank, no one in their right mind will take a Warrior instead. This is due to Shield Fortress. It is just that important. When bosses in Raid AoE for 5000+, you need to time Shield Fortress at the right moment. Knight can replace a Warrior in Raid but every raid must have at least 1 or more Knight.

1) I don't agree with this at all. You're blurring the necessity between "Offtank" and "Maintank". Given that you're properaly equipped (Not overequipped or underequipped), the Maintank isn't suppose to be tanking the boss's adds (swarms), that's the offtanks job. This is because if you're at the right equip, tanking both the boss' adds as well as the boss will kill the tank. Go ahead, go to Baphomet and tank Him+Bapho Jrs or Horong. Or go to PvE and Tank Driller+Adds. Or go to CoA and tank Ratmaster+Abyss. Those are bosses in particular require OTs to handle the adds for a smooth run.

Also, using "Grand Cross/Brandish Storm" to handle Boss swarm makes them a horrible tank? lol Again, its almost as if OT role doesn't exist to you. The main point is that an OT has AoE Control (Pots alone won't cut it), that is why Knights/Warriors are considered good at OT, while Monks/BMs are not.

2) Again, this is created by the stigma that knights are incapable main tanks for 2 reasons. The first is the one I mentioned, that warriors fragile early on, hence people automatically assume they can't tank. But as I said before, starting at tier 2 Raids, warrior tanks are just as capable. The second is that warriors are always preferred in the OT slot, not because they can't main tank, but because they're the best OT (Will explain why below).

Proof? We were doing CoA [H] Ratmaster, with an excellent Knight tanking Ratmaster, but we failed two runs for silly reasons, and the knight afk'd for a bit, and the party grew impatient, told me to MainTank with 9 people. It went smoothly, everyone did their jobs, and we succeeded. This was also with an incomplete colo build (Half Colo, Half Valk, x1 Tier1 Raid [H]), and an offensive based Offtank build (No endure). Concerning "Shield Fortress", yes thats true. Shield Fortress is an excellent clutch skill to survive Boss AoE, or hold on for a few more seconds after a boss enrages. However, it's almost as if you forgot that Warriors have plenty of damage mitigation skills, as well as an excellent sustain skill that serves the same purpose. Tanking PvE [H] Stage 2 and AoE's coming? No shield fortress, but Parrying/Endure is enough to soak that damage. Baphomet used the blue ring aoe on you AND DoT is ticking afterwards? Tension Relax is an excellent clutch skill to survive offensive flurries.

Again, I already said my piece about who i thought who the best/strongest tank was. While I agree for the most part that I myself am comfortable with Knights and even Monks/BMs Main Tanking, its completely incorrect to say that Warriors cannot play the role of the main tank. (They can, it just takes time, and because for the most part, no one can OT like warriors)

Knight makes a way better OT than Warriors hands down. You can have a warrior do a bit of OT. But when a major AoE comes up, they have nothing to protect the party but themselves. However, they are the perfect troll class.

Not sure if this was serious (With the troll class comment) but i'll reply anyway. Whereas other debates are arguable, there is no debate when it comes to who the best OT is. The reason why Knight is second best OT, is because they have superior AoE control compared to that of Monk/BM. However, the warrior trumps them all for numerous reasons. The first is that while Knight's AoE Skill (Grand Cross) makes them immobile, warrior's Brandish Storm allows them to MOVE while it casts, granting them the ability to kite boss summons. Second, they have excellent utility skills when it comes to protecting the party in Battle Leap (Knock downa group of adds coming straight for your squishies?) and a secondary single target knockdown in Pommel Strike (For Bapho's Horong, Humbaba [H]'s Giant Deviruchi, and Ratmaster's Abyss). Finally, they're slightly more offensive than knights, allowing them to kill their main priorty faster (The adds).

Edited by StryfeK, 29 April 2013 - 10:37 AM.

I will put it this way. If you have a Monk and BM, would you slot a Warrior or Knight (especially if you get a sin or rogue for the 4th slot)? If you are going to have the Warrior OT, that would happen if the following happens...

1) You have another MT type class (Beastmaster or Monk);
2) You have a Knight;
3) You have at most 4 melee in party.

If you have a Warrior and Knight in party, who would you designate for MT? A warrior, definitely not a Knight. For these reasons alone, that is why a Knight makes a way better OT (not by theory, but by practice/choice).

I will put it this way. If you have a Monk and BM, would you slot a Warrior or Knight (especially if you get a sin or rogue for the 4th slot)? If you are going to have the Warrior OT, that would happen if the following happens...

1) You have another MT type class (Beastmaster or Monk);
2) You have a Knight;
3) You have at most 4 melee in party.

If you have a Warrior and Knight in party, who would you designate for MT? A warrior, definitely not a Knight. For these reasons alone, that is why a Knight makes a way better OT (not by theory, but by practice/choice).

Something tells me you're talking about Normal Parties, since you're tlaking about 5 slots. Pre 50, Offtank is unecessary. Even at 50, where the highest you can do in a 5-man party is Hard Dungeons, Ofttanks are useful, but far from necessary, since the MT is capable of tanking the boss as well as its adds. In either case (5-man parties on 10 man raids), you have it quite the opposite. If you have both a knight and warrior, the knight would MT and Warrior would OT (Moreso because Warriors are the better OT for the various reaons I have listed above.)

You say "For these reasons alone..", but you state no actual reasons lol. Please enlighten me as to what makes Knights the better OT "By Practice". Can you tell me which dungeons, bosses, or experiences you've had that make you say that it's by choice and not "theory"?

No, I'm referring to raids. Hard mode raids. No shield fortress would most likely result in more deaths. I don't bother about RHM/RHDs, 1 tank, 3 DDs, 1 priest is all you need. When you get into raids, the format is usually 1 MT, 1 OT, 6 DDs, 2 priests. However, sometimes it's good to have 2 DDs as melees if the OT cannot handle adds properly, or the MT drops.

A warrior can utilize its buffs to reduce overall damage done to itself. While in this form, unless you want the warrior to tank adds in raids, the mobs are better left with a knight (it may lack mobility, but there are other options to get aggro). This splits the focus and reduces the chance of a knight having to use Shield Fortress far too early or even before a large AoE comes up. If you want a Knight to MT while a Warrior goes for OT and these are your only 2 melees, Knights only have Shield Aura to reduce damage, Warriors have parry, tension relax and endure, I wouldn't put Shield Fortress in there as that has to be saved for protecting the party from unavoidable AoEs.

I've went all the way up to CoA Hard, while Warriors can kill faster, because their tanking skills would apply better on bosses, they would easily the better MT (although my gears were a little inferior to the Warrior at that time). By keeping the Knight in the OT role, there's better room for SF drop, you don't have to blade storm around to get your adds, and you don't have to battle leap around and possibly change the entire team position. As for your warrior build, it was built specifically for OT, try doing that with a MT build, you might think otherwise. If I built a Knight mainly for OT role, I can guarantee you that it will be neck and neck. I may not have the mobility, but I can power up my attacks just as much and keep launching AoEs near and far.

No, I'm referring to raids. Hard mode raids. No shield fortress would most likely result in more deaths. I don't bother about RHM/RHDs, 1 tank, 3 DDs, 1 priest is all you need. When you get into raids, the format is usually 1 MT, 1 OT, 6 DDs, 2 priests. However, sometimes it's good to have 2 DDs as melees if the OT cannot handle adds properly, or the MT drops.

While true to an extent, a raid composition is mandatory 1MT/1OT, 2 Priests, 2 Sorcs 4 DDs (With the 4 DDs having atleast 1 wizard 1 ranger, although the ranger is more demanded than the 1 ranger). The LoR support heal is very important for this case. In most cases where multiple adds appear (Humbaba, Baphomet, Driller) the OT is to kite or follow the bapho Jr's into LoR range, thus keeping the adds from splitting, while sustaining in the LoR which keeps the priests attention on the MT. You just mentioned another example as to why OT warriors are so good with "if the OT cannot handle adds properply". Assuming the OT is properly geared for example taking on Bapho's Jrs/Horongs, or more especially, Driller's adds, the OT will find it difficult to tank it all. Hence why the ability to kite them using BS (In combination with pots) makes warriors absolutely irreplacable as OTs.

A warrior can utilize its buffs to reduce overall damage done to itself. While in this form, unless you want the warrior to tank adds in raids, the mobs are better left with a knight (it may lack mobility, but there are other options to get aggro). This splits the focus and reduces the chance of a knight having to use Shield Fortress far too early or even before a large AoE comes up. If you want a Knight to MT while a Warrior goes for OT and these are your only 2 melees, Knights only have Shield Aura to reduce damage, Warriors have parry, tension relax and endure, I wouldn't put Shield Fortress in there as that has to be saved for protecting the party from unavoidable AoEs.

I will agree that warriors have the skillset to Main Tank (as I have mentioned above). However, knights already have a naturally high defensive capability, hence why you see a lot of tank knights being deemed as the go-to tank class. At its core, anything an endgame knight can maintank, a warriorcan as well. But there are plenty of situations in which warriors can offtank better than knight OTs. So why switch? Switching roles so that warriors are MT and Knights are OT is just wasting a lot of the advantages of what makes warriors so great. In a situation in which both warrior and knight can main tank, the OT role should go to Warriors because they can react to many situations better than the Knight can (Examples listed throughout this post).

I've went all the way up to CoA Hard, while Warriors can kill faster, because their tanking skills would apply better on bosses, they would easily the better MT (although my gears were a little inferior to the Warrior at that time).

This is the point im trying to make, is that Warriors are put in OT positions not because they're the weaker main tank in comparison, but because warriors offer a lot more when it comes to fulfilling the offtank role.

By keeping the Knight in the OT role, there's better room for SF drop, you don't have to blade storm around to get your adds, and you don't have to battle leap around and possibly change the entire team position.

You dont "Blade Storm" around to get adds. Normally, the adds will go to the ranged DPS group, in which case you'd simply have to walk there, spin then pot to get threat. However, things don't always work that well. The MT might've used a pot at that moment and gained some adds, or perhaps a priest/sorc died which would prevent the healoutput to be much lower (Hence, the OT not getting much attention). In which case, the ability to use brandish storm to kite monsters is absolutely essential. Examples would be in Baphomet, where often times the OT would need to kite both horong and bapho JRs since they no longer have DPS to wipe them out, or Driller with its overwhelming amount of adds. That becomes a lifesaver during crunch time, which happens a lot.

I also don't understand how battle leap can possible change the entire team position. The team positions are pretty standard to maintain LoR efficiency. When adds are summoned, they immeddiately go to the DPS area because of the priest heals, whereas knight will have to walk there (or charge at 1 monster), Warriors have the ability to get there instantly, and at the same time temporarily knock down a group of monsters, giving you time to gather threat on them, as well as priests/sorcs being given breathing room to heal. Now which one is more effective? Now let's say they were already out position anyways (Due to a number of the team wiping), then battle leap becomes even more useful as its used to effectively kite and provide room for you other members.

As for your warrior build, it was built specifically for OT, try doing that with a MT build, you might think otherwise.

I've spec'd as MT before for AoD, and I can OT just fine in either builds. I merely used that situation in particular (Even OT beings be able to MT) to explain the MTing capabiltiies of a warrior. The reason for this is that OT Warr and MT warr isn't very different. In fact, spec a few points a given way and the builds are exactly the same. The main thing is OT builds have a little more flexibility in not needing to have constant defenses up, to trade for focusing on the AoE aspect and an increased damage output. However, an MT build is highly capable of doing both roles well.

If I built a Knight mainly for OT role, I can guarantee you that it will be neck and neck. I may not have the mobility, but I can power up my attacks just as much and keep launching AoEs near and far

Increasing your damage does not make an OT better, that's only a very minor part to it. While yes, DPS output is indeed a component to OTing (Since it helps you clear adds faster), that is not the reason why warriors are the better OTs. It's their skillsets and features that I mentioned above. Respeccing a knight to have more DPS does not mitigate the utility that warriors provide.

Edited by StryfeK, 29 April 2013 - 01:04 PM.

This is a pretty common discussion, and since a lot has been already said in my guide, through other people's posts, as well as here, but I thought I'd respond anyway.

I believe that warriors have the potential to be the strongest tanks in the game, since their kit and overall playstyle scales very well in the late end-game (Tier 2 Raids+). However, this doesn't make them the best tank. In my opnion, Knights are the best tank class, simply because they're the most well rounded (Has Good AoE Control, Extra Padding/Stats with a shield, a clutch defense skill in brandish storm, decent threat control, and great overall defensive abilities), AND because they're the SAFEST tank class from start to finish? What do I mean by this? It means as soon as they hit lv25, they're capable of tanking whatever they're suppose to tank at that lvl. This, to me, makes knights the most reliable no matter what the case may be. Warriors are fragile pre-50, and struggle a little but during RHD and Tier 1 Raids, compared to the other tanks.




1) I don't agree with this at all. You're blurring the necessity between "Offtank" and "Maintank". Given that you're properaly equipped (Not overequipped or underequipped), the Maintank isn't suppose to be tanking the boss's adds (swarms), that's the offtanks job. This is because if you're at the right equip, tanking both the boss' adds as well as the boss will kill the tank. Go ahead, go to Baphomet and tank Him+Bapho Jrs or Horong. Or go to PvE and Tank Driller+Adds. Or go to CoA and tank Ratmaster+Abyss. Those are bosses in particular require OTs to handle the adds for a smooth run.

Also, using "Grand Cross/Brandish Storm" to handle Boss swarm makes them a horrible tank? lol Again, its almost as if OT role doesn't exist to you. The main point is that an OT has AoE Control (Pots alone won't cut it), that is why Knights/Warriors are considered good at OT, while Monks/BMs are not.

2) Again, this is created by the stigma that knights are incapable main tanks for 2 reasons. The first is the one I mentioned, that warriors fragile early on, hence people automatically assume they can't tank. But as I said before, starting at tier 2 Raids, warrior tanks are just as capable. The second is that warriors are always preferred in the OT slot, not because they can't main tank, but because they're the best OT (Will explain why below).

Proof? We were doing CoA [H] Ratmaster, with an excellent Knight tanking Ratmaster, but we failed two runs for silly reasons, and the knight afk'd for a bit, and the party grew impatient, told me to MainTank with 9 people. It went smoothly, everyone did their jobs, and we succeeded. This was also with an incomplete colo build (Half Colo, Half Valk, x1 Tier1 Raid [H]), and an offensive based Offtank build (No endure). Concerning "Shield Fortress", yes thats true. Shield Fortress is an excellent clutch skill to survive Boss AoE, or hold on for a few more seconds after a boss enrages. However, it's almost as if you forgot that Warriors have plenty of damage mitigation skills, as well as an excellent sustain skill that serves the same purpose. Tanking PvE [H] Stage 2 and AoE's coming? No shield fortress, but Parrying/Endure is enough to soak that damage. Baphomet used the blue ring aoe on you AND DoT is ticking afterwards? Tension Relax is an excellent clutch skill to survive offensive flurries.

Again, I already said my piece about who i thought who the best/strongest tank was. While I agree for the most part that I myself am comfortable with Knights and even Monks/BMs Main Tanking, its completely incorrect to say that Warriors cannot play the role of the main tank. (They can, it just takes time, and because for the most part, no one can OT like warriors)



Not sure if this was serious (With the troll class comment) but i'll reply anyway. Whereas other debates are arguable, there is no debate when it comes to who the best OT is. The reason why Knight is second best OT, is because they have superior AoE control compared to that of Monk/BM. However, the warrior trumps them all for numerous reasons. The first is that while Knight's AoE Skill (Grand Cross) makes them immobile, warrior's Brandish Storm allows them to MOVE while it casts, granting them the ability to kite boss summons. Second, they have excellent utility skills when it comes to protecting the party in Battle Leap (Knock downa  group of adds coming straight for your squishies?) and a secondary single target knockdown in Pommel Strike (For Bapho's Horong, Humbaba [H]'s Giant Deviruchi, and Ratmaster's Abyss). Finally, they're slightly more offensive than knights, allowing them to kill their main priorty faster (The adds).

I think you have misunderstood a few things on my post. First, I said "SWARM". I don't consider Bapho's Horong a swarm because you have to focus fire on it. Humbaba's Devi are swarms. They don't have that much HP. You don't kill them one by one. 1 Mastro Potion for an OT is enough to hold the threat. Consider it gives 7000~8000 threat per chunk. No AoE in the game can do that much damage. Or of course, you can waste time with Brandish doing 2000 threat if you are lucky with critical. Other than that, I think you don't understand the purpose of Shield Fortress. A Knight don't use Shield Fortress to save himself. Knight has Aura Shield for that. Shield Fortress is used to cover your Healer and DPS. 1 crappy critical from an AoE can 1 shot your healer. Furthermore, bosses in RO2 can target random people in your party at will. If your provoke is down (Assuming nobody in their right mind would level up provoke.), you can save whoever in your party with Shield Fortress too. Warrior, on the other hand, will just stand their looking stupid. Sure you got all the damage reduction, but what the hell are you going to do when all 4 of your healers just got one shot? Start kiting and hope everyone is not on cool down with their leaves. Knight can prevent that in the first place.

You dont "Blade Storm" around to get adds. Normally, the adds will go to the ranged DPS group, in which case you'd simply have to walk there, spin then pot to get threat. However, things don't always work that well. The MT might've used a pot at that moment and gained some adds, or perhaps a priest/sorc died which would prevent the healoutput to be much lower (Hence, the OT not getting much attention). In which case, the ability to use brandish storm to kite monsters is absolutely essential. Examples would be in Baphomet, where often times the OT would need to kite both horong and bapho JRs since they no longer have DPS to wipe them out, or Driller with its overwhelming amount of adds. That becomes a lifesaver during crunch time, which happens a lot.

I also don't understand how battle leap can possible change the entire team position. The team positions are pretty standard to maintain LoR efficiency. When adds are summoned, they immeddiately go to the DPS area because of the priest heals, whereas knight will have to walk there (or charge at 1 monster), Warriors have the ability to get there instantly, and at the same time temporarily knock down a group of monsters, giving you time to gather threat on them, as well as priests/sorcs being given breathing room to heal. Now which one is more effective? Now let's say they were already out position anyways (Due to a number of the team wiping), then battle leap becomes even more useful as its used to effectively kite and provide room for you other members.

Things to point out in this section. Getting both a horong and bapho jrs usually points to not splitting your DD correctly (Wiz + OT is usually enough unless you need more firepower from another DD). Driller adds should be split between both MT and OT (some are just that weak). However, a wizard easily mitigates the situation while OT can simply concentrate on other adds.

Battle leap can have its unfortunate timings. I've seen raids where a warrior will battle leap into gears and then Gearbaz turns to AoE the warrior resulting in AoEing the entire squad (it could very well be another player just happens that the warrior got in). Despite how much mobility you get as a warrior, if you're specced for OT, then yes you can let a knight go MT. But if you're both specced MT, would you still choose a knight? To be even more plain, if you got a knight and warrior with no sure ability that either can do well as MT and the upcoming boss has an unavoidable AoE, would you pick a knight or warrior to be MT? Warriors can be quite the specialist, but there are many things that you would lead a knight to OT over a warrior, especially when you're going in with gears that aren't above and beyond. We'll see with CoA runs should no bugs come around to it.

Only a high-end geared full parry knight can tank Maya in AOD Hard. A warrior in full AOD gear can't even tank it. Trust me, our guild in SEA server has the only Knight that can tank it.

Maybe there's some behind the scenes hidden mechanics between warrior and knight that have yet to be discovered. Wouldn't show in any logs, only server side formulas.

Edited by Alvana, 29 April 2013 - 04:19 PM.

I think you have misunderstood a few things on my post. First, I said "SWARM". I don't consider Bapho's Horong a swarm because you have to focus fire on it. Humbaba's Devi are swarms. They don't have that much HP. You don't kill them one by one. 1 Mastro Potion for an OT is enough to hold the threat. Consider it gives 7000~8000 threat per chunk. No AoE in the game can do that much damage. Or of course, you can waste time with Brandish doing 2000 threat if you are lucky with critical. Other than that, I think you don't understand the purpose of Shield Fortress. A Knight don't use Shield Fortress to save himself. Knight has Aura Shield for that. Shield Fortress is used to cover your Healer and DPS. 1 crappy critical from an AoE can 1 shot your healer. Furthermore, bosses in RO2 can target random people in your party at will. If your provoke is down (Assuming nobody in their right mind would level up provoke.), you can save whoever in your party with Shield Fortress too. Warrior, on the other hand, will just stand their looking stupid. Sure you got all the damage reduction, but what the hell are you going to do when all 4 of your healers just got one shot? Start kiting and hope everyone is not on cool down with their leaves. Knight can prevent that in the first place.

Humbaba's Summons aren't very strong, and I agree there that all it takes to hold their threat is a Maestro pot (They do generate more threat as well) However, I'll go ahead and say that since they're so weak, 1 brandish storm is enough to do damage while at the same time generating enough threat to hold them. I mean, as an OT, once you do generate threat enough threat to hold the mobs anyway, what do you then? Kill them all at once via BS. Also, Humbaba's Deviruchiis are some of the weaker mobs, but what about Bapho Jr, Gearbaz Petrus or Driller? Still, the rest of my points still stands concerning a line between MT and OT.

Concerning shield fortress. Yes I understand that SB has a bit of a party damage reduction to help squishies survive AoE, however, from what I've seen, this isn't usually it's main purpose. 1 Crappy critical AoE critical, and SF's job is to prevent that? So Baphomet's blue AoE ring, his Scythe, or hardmode PvE bosses with unavoidable AoEs right? Again, maybe im wrong on this, but when skills are being to helped prevent this, it's not "Knight: Okay let me time Shield Fortress to protect you guys" it's more "Priest/Sorcs timing and chaining AoE Heal / Deluge"

Bosses that randomly change targets.. So, Izlude Cave [H] Hydra, PvE 7th Assassin of Twilight, and Ermes guiles. You mean to say, when these bosses start changing targets, you can save your party member by casting Shield Fortress?

Things to point out in this section. Getting both a horong and bapho jrs usually points to not splitting your DD correctly (Wiz + OT is usually enough unless you need more firepower from another DD). Driller adds should be split between both MT and OT (some are just that weak). However, a wizard easily mitigates the situation while OT can simply concentrate on other adds.

Concerning Horong/Bapho, this is often the case because there is no DD to split lol. The first set of summons is normally okay, both Horongs/Bapho Jrs can be killed. But by the time he summons the 2nd set, its often the case where a chunk of the party is dead, making it extremely hard to kill or sustain Bapho/Horong. So often, someone has to kite the horong and bapho until they naturally dissappear. Anyone can kite horong, but the JRs are an issue, and its easier to do it with a warrior. And yes, I agree with a Wizard aids in helping clear adds quickly, helping an OT do his job.

Battle leap can have its unfortunate timings. I've seen raids where a warrior will battle leap into gears and then Gearbaz turns to AoE the warrior resulting in AoEing the entire squad (it could very well be another player just happens that the warrior got in). Despite how much mobility you get as a warrior, if you're specced for OT, then yes you can let a knight go MT. But if you're both specced MT, would you still choose a knight? To be even more plain, if you got a knight and warrior with no sure ability that either can do well as MT and the upcoming boss has an unavoidable AoE, would you pick a knight or warrior to be MT? Warriors can be quite the specialist, but there are many things that you would lead a knight to OT over a warrior, especially when you're going in with gears that aren't above and beyond. We'll see with CoA runs should no bugs come around to it.

Never happened to me with Gearbaz, so I'm not sure what to say about that lol. But anyways, that is indeed what I'm saying, that if you have both a MT specced Warr and Knight, I would go with the knight, for the many reasons I stated above (Knights being sturdies tanks overall due to having extra padding, a skillset catered to MTing, and not necessarily because they wholely outperform Warriors in MTing, but because warriors offer added utility as OT) Being a proponent of the "Warriors can MT too", I should just be happy that you believe in MT tanks so much haha xD