Warrior & Knight (attack power/DPS) - Swordman - WarpPortal Community Forums

Jump to content


Photo

Warrior & Knight (attack power/DPS)


  • Please log in to reply
168 replies to this topic

#1 Chocs

Chocs

    Awarded #1 Troll

  • Members
  • 566 posts

Posted 10 May 2013 - 06:41 AM

So it's the general consensus that Warriors have higher attack than Knights...

This is for those people thinking of becoming hybrids or tanks, as these Warriors tend to opt for Defender to be on par with Knights in Defence (and spend more skill points just for that).

Here is the attack power of their respective PvP weapons as an example:

Warrior: 829 ATK
Warrior: 746 ATK (+Defender)
Knight: 659 ATK

Okay, cool. Even with Defender Warriors have higher attack. But wait -- we're missing the attack from STR, so let's give both a decent 600 total STR (1200 ATK) from their equipment.

Warrior: 2029 ATK
Warrior: 1826 ATK (+Defender)
Knight: 1859 ATK

Now... the Knight has caught up. What if we added more STR? 600 total STR is still not endgame level-


With this I'd like to point out that 10% attack penalty of Defender will scale up pretty high, eventually putting Warriors below Knights in attack power.


Now it may seem common sense to some of you and might have been brought up before, but for those that haven't thought of it, this should be worth considering...

Edited by Chocs, 12 May 2013 - 10:39 AM.

  • 0

#2 Reppu

Reppu

    I made it Off Topic

  • Members
  • 69 posts
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 10 May 2013 - 06:48 AM

I think it's also worth keeping mind that while taking Defender should be done in nearly all cases, always keeping it on should NOT always be done. Although this was not being advocated.

As a result, yes. Knights (And I guess Beastmasters?) will probably end up trumping the raw Attack values over Warriors (And perhaps Monks? Although it's worth considering their ability to benefit from STR and INT), at least when it comes to pure defense.

Although it makes sense; Warriors mitigation will end up trumping Knights at these gear levels, so I suppose Knights will end up with more damage...?

Hah.
  • 0

#3 Chocs

Chocs

    Awarded #1 Troll

  • Members
  • 566 posts

Posted 10 May 2013 - 06:58 AM

Although it makes sense; Warriors mitigation will end up trumping Knights at these gear levels, so I suppose Knights will end up with more damage...?

Hah.

Yeah, that's the case apparently!

I'm glad someone brought it up. I didn't want to make a wordy OP :D

The real issue with Warriors is not about toggling Defender on/off, but the fact that they spent skill points to become viable tanks. Knights can just wear their shields and can put those skill points elsewhere.

Due to this, I believe building a hybrid Knight is a bit more effective than building a hybrid Warrior, considering their skillset.

On the other hand, focussing a Warrior on Tank or DPS seems to be a better option than somewhere in between.

Edited by Chocs, 10 May 2013 - 07:03 AM.

  • 0

#4 Reppu

Reppu

    I made it Off Topic

  • Members
  • 69 posts
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 10 May 2013 - 07:02 AM

Concentration alone is merit to consider Knight DPS/Hybrid builds. Although I'm tempted to figure out (I lack the resources to do this right now; ie no database) how 1-Handed Swords compare to every Melee/Ranged weapon in the game, and see how Knights could do, theoretically, in DPS.

-

As for Re: Warrior DPS, there's always the 'problem' of 'Rogues/Assassins do it better, and even then why take Melee DPS?"

It seems Warriors should really just go Pure Tank, while Knights have a little versatility in how they want to be built.

Edited by Reppu, 10 May 2013 - 07:03 AM.

  • 0

#5 Jargous

Jargous

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 319 posts

Posted 10 May 2013 - 07:52 AM

If you want theory, factor in Berserk vs Concentration. Berserk I believe is 20 seconds for a 60 second cd. Concentration is theoretically infinite as it can refresh before the effect wears off. Now imagine for 40 seconds, the Knight has a 20% atk bonus but the Warrior has none.
  • 0

#6 Reppu

Reppu

    I made it Off Topic

  • Members
  • 69 posts
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 10 May 2013 - 08:01 AM

If you want theory, factor in Berserk vs Concentration. Berserk I believe is 20 seconds for a 60 second cd. Concentration is theoretically infinite as it can refresh before the effect wears off. Now imagine for 40 seconds, the Knight has a 20% atk bonus but the Warrior has none.


Berserk is 30 for 60, so 50% uptime before factoring in other, mostly non-important things. It comes down to the Knight having 20% up all the time, versus the Warrior having 20% half the time. Or, effectively, 10% all the time.

Rage Strike and Shield Cannon are fairly similar, but I suppose Rage Strike wins in the Burst Cooldown.

The movement of Brandish Storm is irrelevant in this case, so it and Grand Cross are comparable.

For pure DPS builds, Knight maintains full survivability, while the Warrior has to give up damage (IE: Defender) to maintain it.

Aura Blade sucks (Well, it's just not as good as Aura Armor).

Shield Fortress. Yeah.

And of course, Warrior wins in terms of Healing. Although a DPS Knight might have decent yields with Aura Heal.... nah.

All in all, a DPS Warrior probably 'wins', perhaps, but at the cost of the sheer survivability of a Knight (IE: Greatswords vs. Swords, and then Defender having to stay off). But there's still so much to consider with all of this.

Edited by Reppu, 10 May 2013 - 08:03 AM.

  • 0

#7 Jargous

Jargous

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 319 posts

Posted 10 May 2013 - 08:16 AM

Take it from the consideration of pure attack values (do not even factor in defense). If you're going to DPS, you're expecting somebody else to tank, that simple. Another thing to factor in is Aura Mastery. Regardless from a theoretical perspective, Knights would win in DPS, but in practicality, Warriors win because defensive capabilities are involved.
  • 0

#8 Reppu

Reppu

    I made it Off Topic

  • Members
  • 69 posts
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 10 May 2013 - 08:21 AM

Take it from the consideration of pure attack values (do not even factor in defense). If you're going to DPS, you're expecting somebody else to tank, that simple. Another thing to factor in is Aura Mastery. Regardless from a theoretical perspective, Knights would win in DPS, but in practicality, Warriors win because defensive capabilities are involved.


I disagree with never factoring in defense; a Dead DPSer is providing 0 DPS after all. Minor nitpick aside, it's not about Knights vs. Warriors so much as it's Knights vs. Rogues and Assassins!
  • 0

#9 yani9o

yani9o

    I am New.

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 10 May 2013 - 09:17 AM

I'm wondering how such a "dps knight" build up would look like?
Is it viable to put more points in Shield Boomerang and it's Mastery? (Remember Lvl1: 18% - Lvl5: 27%, that's 50% more damage for that skill...)
At Level5 it does more damage than Level 5 Bash, of course it has a 15 second cd, but with it's mastery it's (over long term and at level 5) only a 13 second cooldown, generates an aura, is ranged and hits up to three targets.
As mentioned, even without Aura Shield and Shield Fortress, a Knight can always tank - just without the goodies a full tank knight has...
  • 0

#10 SonicTMP

SonicTMP

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 346 posts
  • LocationAlone in the dishwasher
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 10 May 2013 - 10:03 AM

Maxing sheild boom and mastery is pointless. With mastery at 5 thats 20% and it only procs off an Aura finisher like cannon or strike. It's unrealiable. Damage wise is the same. 4 points in shield boom to make it do 25% damage, same as bash.

Shield boom is a great pulling tool. But it's hit's 3 targets is a splash attack. It's not a bounce/chain lighting mechanic. Meaning those 3 mobs need to be touch each other for it to hit all of them. Overall it's not worth it for the main damage rotation, those 8 points are better spent on support.

You could choose to swap points into tank aura vs shield fortress but I think that's a very big mistake. You'll be able to tank 5man dungeons but you're missing the iconic skill for raids. More so since vigor/guardian summon will reduce CD.

Edited by SonicTMP, 10 May 2013 - 10:04 AM.

  • 0

#11 yani9o

yani9o

    I am New.

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 10 May 2013 - 10:06 AM

So the "Dps-Build" for Knight would be like this?

http://www.ro2skills...dnrFdBrBeCeabs1

So it's nearly the same as a normal tank build? xD

BTW:
"Grand Cross"... Does every Hit 22% Damage or all the Hits together?

Edited by yani9o, 10 May 2013 - 10:10 AM.

  • 0

#12 SonicTMP

SonicTMP

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 346 posts
  • LocationAlone in the dishwasher
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 10 May 2013 - 10:23 AM

That's a hybrid build that leans towards tanking.

This is a dps build, mine to be exact. http://www.ro2skills...dCrFqAboeDdBas1

Dps means a focus on that. Sheild fortress is too geat a skill not to get even as dps. Vigor will help the CD.
Aura mastery needs to be maxed. If you've played wow, dps knight is like a ret paladin. Keep up concentration and then aura mastery procs a good deal for free 3 point finisher spam.
Battle manual has been theory crafted to be a dps boost even if you do nothing more than have int from title+card. I'm going to be trying the int/agi focus on my setup though.

Knight AoE is weak no matter how you slice it. And to answer your last question GC does damage over multiple hits. I think it's 7-8 fast ticks of damage. Even with a BM crit build single target is far better than our AoE.

The only thing I haven't figured out in my build is those extra 3 points. Nothing is going to make a major differance no matter where i put them. I was thinking of trying the heal since it's been confirmed to be able to crit and be effected by battle manual boost. Add in some vigor and it could be useful but still not as good as a pot.

Edited by SonicTMP, 10 May 2013 - 10:25 AM.

  • 0

#13 Jargous

Jargous

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 319 posts

Posted 10 May 2013 - 11:35 AM

I disagree with never factoring in defense; a Dead DPSer is providing 0 DPS after all. Minor nitpick aside, it's not about Knights vs. Warriors so much as it's Knights vs. Rogues and Assassins!


I wouldn't compare Knights vs Rogues and Assassins especially if I were to take it from a utility perspective. Possibly a 100 second CD on Shield Fortress pays off way more than Rogues and Assassins going dead.
  • 0

#14 yani9o

yani9o

    I am New.

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:13 PM

Knight AoE is weak no matter how you slice it. And to answer your last question GC does damage over multiple hits. I think it's 7-8 fast ticks of damage. Even with a BM crit build single target is far better than our AoE.


You mean there is no difference between Lvl1 Grand Cross and Lvl3?
And i wonder why there is no point at all in Aura Armor? I know, it's a DPS build, but still... No emergency Tanking?
  • 0

#15 Reppu

Reppu

    I made it Off Topic

  • Members
  • 69 posts
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:57 PM

I'd likely still take Aura Armor over Aura Blade, even as a DPS build. Simple reason? 20% Health and 5% Damage Reduction is going to trump 10% Attack Damage more often than not, and the added utility of being able to soak hits is nothing to scoff at. As well, it allows you to Off Tank DPS in raids, as you're capable of contributing DPS against summons, and maintaining #2 on Raid Boss aggro while pulling your own weight.

I just don't think 10% Attack Power is worth 20% Health and 5% Damage Reduction. If nothing else, putting 5 into Aura Armor and 3 into Aura Blade? But hm.

Again, a Dead DPS is 0 DPS.

Edited by Reppu, 10 May 2013 - 01:02 PM.

  • 0

#16 SonicTMP

SonicTMP

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 346 posts
  • LocationAlone in the dishwasher
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:23 PM

Need to think one side or the other. If you want to hybrid thats fine but you're giving up the extra dps or tank abilities.

If you are dpsing with arua armor on and dps geared you'll out threat the tanks. That's bad. You don't need the 5% reduction or hp as a dps. We have the highest armor type and a sheild. If you take the 3 spare points from my build you can have lvl 4 aura shield for extra reduction if you feel you need it. We have enough passive reduction as is, it's not needed imo when you're full dps.

Dead dps is 0 dps but you have built in defence, pots and healers to keep you alive. Smart dps stay out of the fire as well.
Also remember that gear is going to decide your roll as well. If you're wearing hit/haste/vigor gear for dps... you shouldn't be tanking unless both tanks died and you want to be a hero.

@yani9o. The differance between Gc 1 and 3 is the total damage. All levels are the same with animation. 7-8 fast multiple hits that add up to the total damage% as stated in the tool tip.
  • 0

#17 Reppu

Reppu

    I made it Off Topic

  • Members
  • 69 posts
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:29 PM

Then, for the sake of maximizing DPS, wouldn't putting the leftover points into Headcrush be the biggest yield?

Heaven knows Aura Heal is bloody useless for the most part.
  • 0

#18 Wandrin

Wandrin

    I made it Off Topic

  • Members
  • 30 posts

Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:54 PM

That depends on whether or not your head crush is up anyway, If you tank is putting it up yours shouldn't be up as you are stealing his threat potential. Which if DPS are having to throttle because they are sneaking up on the tank will result in a part/raid dps loss.
  • 0

#19 Reppu

Reppu

    I made it Off Topic

  • Members
  • 69 posts
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 10 May 2013 - 02:11 PM

So many variables, so little sense to make of it!

Alas.
  • 0

#20 Wandrin

Wandrin

    I made it Off Topic

  • Members
  • 30 posts

Posted 10 May 2013 - 02:26 PM

There is an entire breed of player that lives to understand all the variables. Personally my first few days during downtime were spent pouring over my fraps recordings to find out the timings for skills. Did you know that if you used nothing but aura strike you can use it every 1.11 seconds?
  • 0

#21 Tamashiimizu

Tamashiimizu

    I made it Off Topic

  • Members
  • 27 posts

Posted 10 May 2013 - 02:30 PM

In MY OPINION Aura Heal is consired a ''fail skill'' by most, because nobody succeded in turning it a decent skill. A DPS Knight, with agi/int would have a nice use for it (since is viable to reach 250 Int points), but would still depend on probabilities. I still see a distant light of hope in that skill.

Also, maybe it's a good deal to put these 3 points in Shield Charge (to reduce CD, and be able to stun more times in PVP/Coloseum) or Shield Boomerang Mastery, to be able to slow and reach the casters (also in PVP and Colo)
  • 0

#22 Wandrin

Wandrin

    I made it Off Topic

  • Members
  • 30 posts

Posted 10 May 2013 - 02:40 PM

Probably better off to have the reduced charge CD as shield boomerang requires you to actually hit something.
  • 0

#23 SonicTMP

SonicTMP

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 346 posts
  • LocationAlone in the dishwasher
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 10 May 2013 - 02:43 PM

Tamashiimizu sums up my thoughts pretty much. Even as a dps knight I'm not sure abuot the heal. Lower CD and higher crit might make it useful but its still so bad... I'm really not sure.

I'm not into pvp personally. I'll be doing it enough to gett he int/agi accessorys but after that i'll stay away.

Theres no universal good use for those last 3 points. Head crush is 3 points for 2% higher dot. Knight aoe sucks. Aura shield isn't really needed. Seems to be more of a personal choice in this case.

So many variables, so little sense to make of it!

Alas.


Not really. You just need to foucs on a path. It's not much different than how RO1 was. Pick a build, find the best cards/gear/skills that makes it work.
This is of course why people make guides and we discuss what we are now.
  • 0

#24 Reppu

Reppu

    I made it Off Topic

  • Members
  • 69 posts
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 10 May 2013 - 02:46 PM

Actually, that was in regards to "DOT Stacking", and not so much the hybrid builds.
  • 0

#25 yani9o

yani9o

    I am New.

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 10 May 2013 - 02:53 PM

I'd likely still take Aura Armor over Aura Blade
[...]
Again, a Dead DPS is 0 DPS.

Pretty true ^^'

If you are dpsing with arua armor on and dps geared you'll out threat the tanks. That's bad.
[...]
@yani9o. The differance between Gc 1 and 3 is the total damage. All levels are the same with animation. 7-8 fast multiple hits that add up to the total damage% as stated in the tool tip.

Didn't think of that...
With "difference" i rather thought of "not nessecary to put more points in it to keep aggro if needed" ^^' - sry xD
  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users