Cold Bolt still benefits the same as Fire Bolt from Haste it just is not as visibly noticeable. I have considered doing that switch as well but I think the double global cooldowns needed to achieve it would cancel out any possibly benefit it may have.
Fire Arms vs Wind Arms For Wizards
Started by
Xafir
, Jun 03 2013 03:44 PM
201 replies to this topic
#52
Nirrado
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Posted 04 June 2013 - 04:59 PM
Yeah, and in RHDs I would probably use it for Water Seal Explosion TBH. I try to conserve zeny where I can, and using that to get SP back in RHDs instead of dumping 15+z a run into pots AND repairs are ok with me. Raiding is different, as soon as I start doing that of course ;_;
#53
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Posted 04 June 2013 - 05:14 PM
Sorry I'm getting a bit of-topic. I'm going to take the jump tonight and give it a try, I'll fraps some bosses or the such and load them up for you guys to take a look at along with my MP/Crit/Haste rates.
#54
Xafir
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Posted 04 June 2013 - 05:17 PM
Make sure to bring SP pots since you are correct in that the CB/LB build can burn through SP.
#55
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Posted 04 June 2013 - 05:19 PM
If it's providing a demonstration of how the build works, I'd say it's on-topic enough. I take it this is going to be soloing against early game bosses so you don't have to worry about damage from other teammates?
#56
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Posted 04 June 2013 - 05:27 PM
I'll likely be running with a rogue and warrior for comparison. As the cookie cutter Fire Emblem/Fire Bolt spec I'm usually neck and neck with the rogue. This of course depends on movement and how much melee may or may not have to GTFO of whirlpools and the such. Leviathan I wreck him, but fights where he doesn't have to move he will pull ahead a fair amount. I do think there is a bit of a Stigma against wizards as our DPS isnt quite ranger/etc, but it is still very competitive as far as I'm concerned. If this pushes ahead though I will be sold lol.
#57
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Posted 04 June 2013 - 07:59 PM
Here's a test video I got to do without terrible RNG. So far not super impressed, although it is amazing for soloing lol. I was about average on this fight fight, but I'll upload a couple more later since our rogue had to move a bit on this one
Edited by Nirrado, 04 June 2013 - 08:01 PM.
#58
Nirrado
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Posted 04 June 2013 - 08:08 PM
That's with 1658 MP 20.12% crit 30.43% Haste
#59
Nagittchi
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Posted 04 June 2013 - 08:54 PM
Definitely stay with Firebolt + Wind Arms. Leave the cold/thunder stuff to the sorcs.
#60
Nirrado
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Posted 04 June 2013 - 09:09 PM
Yeah just specd to the wind fire bolt spec and it's a noticeable difference compared to when I changed from cookie cutter to cold bolt.
#61
Fuumaki
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Posted 04 June 2013 - 09:48 PM
Video please! I am more interested in the Firebolt/Wind Seal combo more than the Cold/Lightning one!
#62
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Posted 04 June 2013 - 10:01 PM
I should have a wind emblem video tomorrow, all of my group went to bed already so no more RHDs till tomorrow after maint 
#63
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Posted 05 June 2013 - 01:15 AM
it would be great to see how it compares to ranger threat though
and of course neither you not the other dpsers should switch to adds in your tests because the threat meter is not a dps meter and it says nothing about your overall dps (like adds, multidotting, etc) in the whole fight
and of course neither you not the other dpsers should switch to adds in your tests because the threat meter is not a dps meter and it says nothing about your overall dps (like adds, multidotting, etc) in the whole fight
Edited by elvenne, 05 June 2013 - 01:15 AM.
#64
Xafir
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Posted 05 June 2013 - 04:52 AM
I have done some calculations based on your stats and the length of that fight and managed to get pretty close to what you got In the video. It seems there is a 0.3 second latency on ability casts and all my previous calculations did not include GCD so I will correct this to make them more accurate.
Still with the same stats and fight duration a fire bolt wind arms build should do about 43,000 to the 59,000 you did in the video. I will post my new calculations along with the ones with your stats when I get home tonight.
Still with the same stats and fight duration a fire bolt wind arms build should do about 43,000 to the 59,000 you did in the video. I will post my new calculations along with the ones with your stats when I get home tonight.
#65
Nagittchi
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Posted 05 June 2013 - 12:08 PM
Wait a minute... are you now saying that frigging colt bolt + thunderbolt has higher DPS than Wind Emblem + Fire Bolt?
#66
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Posted 05 June 2013 - 12:54 PM
Wait a minute... are you now saying that frigging colt bolt + thunderbolt has higher DPS than Wind Emblem + Fire Bolt?
Yes that was what I was saying before I fixed the errors in the calculation. Below are the new calculations that include GCD and 0.3 second casting latency with Nirrado's stats. I tweaked the latency and number of Cold Bolt and Fire Bolt casts until I was within the correct fight time.
Cold Bolt with Wind Arms 10% cast speed from equip, 1658 base MATK and 20% crit rate
0.35 second cast speed
with no haste takes 1.8 seconds until you can use the next cold bolt
1.8 - 0.15 (difference from haste) = 1.65
1 lightning bolts in 1.3 seconds
100 second fight (1min 40 seconds) 60 (100/1.65) cold bolt casts in 100 seconds
60 - 18 = 42 need to subtract enough cold bolts that we can add in lightning bolts without going over the time given
42 cold bolt casts
12 wind arms procs (rounded down so that it would fit in the time given)
24 double dmg lightning bolt casts
5 crit double dmg lightning bolts
19 non crit double dmg lightning bolts
8 cold bolt crits
34 non crit cold bolts
21421 non crit cold bolt dmg
10080 crit cold bolt dmg
13860 non crit lightning bolt dmg
7295 crit lightning bolt dmg
total dmg: 52656
Fire Bolt with Wind Arms 10% cast speed from equip, 1658 base MATK and 20% crit rate
0.7 second cast speed
fire bolt with no haste takes 2.3 seconds until you can use the next fire bolt
2.3 - 0.3 = 2.0 cast time with haste
1 fireball in 1.3 seconds
100 second fight (1min 40 seconds) 50 100/2.0 fire bolt casts in 100 seconds
50 - 7 = 43 need to subtract enough fire bolts that we can add in fireballs without going over the time given
43 + fireball casts gives us the exact same time taken as the Cold bolt test
43 fire bolt casts
8 fireball casts
35 non crit fire bolts
8 crit fire bolts
7 non crit fireballs
1 crit fireballs
28434 non crit fire bolt dmg
12998 crit fire bolt dmg
6499 non crit fireball dmg
1856 crit fireball dmg
2506 * 2 = 5012 fireball DOT dmg
total dmg: 54799
Edited by Xafir, 09 June 2013 - 03:46 AM.
#67
Xafir
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Posted 05 June 2013 - 01:26 PM
Also while I am thinking of it there is a problem with using the threat meter to measure DPS. This problem is that any healing generates extra threat and does not trigger a global cooldown. So if you need to use potions to heal yourself because you are taking damage or in the case of a rogue or sorc you use gangstar paradise or one of your sorc heals to do some healing then your threat skyrockets without adding more damage.
Edited by Xafir, 05 June 2013 - 01:27 PM.
#68
awayish
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Posted 05 June 2013 - 03:16 PM
xafir you need to be less speculative and run field tests. animation lag is not in this at all and player response time is not either. the ratio of time reduced by haste over time not reduced by haste is the key number that determines the maximal effect of haste. this number is different for different skills, in that longer cast spells benefit from haste more.
further, haste is asymptotic which means the more haste you have, the better additional haste will be.
taking into account these two factors, a real demonstrative test would have real world play PLUS different gear level assumptions.
at higher gear levels you can get upwards of 25% haste from gear, pop a pump it pill and it goes to 30%. 20% haste on top of that is better than 20% haste on top of 10% equip haste.
further, haste is asymptotic which means the more haste you have, the better additional haste will be.
taking into account these two factors, a real demonstrative test would have real world play PLUS different gear level assumptions.
at higher gear levels you can get upwards of 25% haste from gear, pop a pump it pill and it goes to 30%. 20% haste on top of that is better than 20% haste on top of 10% equip haste.
#69
Xafir
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Posted 05 June 2013 - 03:31 PM
I am in the process of redoing the calculations with animation lag (which seems to be 0.3 seconds for Cold Bolt and Fire Bolt according to my stop watch) as well as adding in global cooldown. I finally have it ironed out and the calculations 2 posts up will be corrected with the new calculations in like 15min I hope.
Edited by Xafir, 05 June 2013 - 03:32 PM.
#70
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Posted 05 June 2013 - 03:58 PM
I personally tried Cold/Lightning Bolt with Wind Emblem on my wizard today, then respecced to Fire Bolt/Wind Emblem. With Wind Emblem adding many more Fireball procs, Fire Bolt/Wind Emblem build was consistently higher DPS than Cold/Lightning Bolt/Wind Emblem. I'm pleasantly surprised at just how much more effective Wind Emblem is over Fire Emblem. If the DoT on Fire Emblem procced more often, maybe it'd be a little more viable, but that Wind Emblem on a Wizard makes everything so much more enjoyable. Not to mention you can spam Meteor Storm more!
#71
Xafir
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Posted 05 June 2013 - 03:59 PM
Ok updated the calculations using Nirrado's stats with animation lag and GCD timings that I got by timing my casts using a stopwatch. It seems like once you factor in animation lag and GCD plus the fact that Fire bolt has higher base dmg and benefits more from haste that cold bolt loses. I will continue to fix the errors in my previous calculations.
Edited by Xafir, 05 June 2013 - 04:23 PM.
#72
Nirrado
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Posted 05 June 2013 - 05:08 PM
Yeah my group isn't doing RHDs today because of life stuff for 2 of us, but I did go back to wind emblem fire and it has a much higher damage potential from doing some farming. Also in the calculations above the wind/fire spec came out higher, and pyromaniac isn't being considered.
#73
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Posted 05 June 2013 - 05:34 PM
I'd like to try it but it gets expensive to try builds x:
Would Cold bolt + lightning bolt (taking full advantage of Wind Emblem) really outdps fire bolt + fire ball mastery?
I'd really like to know. Plus its easier to cast cold bolt & lightning bolt on the move~ so less dps loss from moving out of AoEs
Would Cold bolt + lightning bolt (taking full advantage of Wind Emblem) really outdps fire bolt + fire ball mastery?
I'd really like to know. Plus its easier to cast cold bolt & lightning bolt on the move~ so less dps loss from moving out of AoEs
#74
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Posted 05 June 2013 - 05:40 PM
Honestly the video I posted was one boss and it was the best rng I had all afternoon(almost 3hrs of RHDs). All the other bosses I was a little behind what I would normally do, Wind Emblem Fire Bolt however, this spec feels amazing so far.
#75
Nirrado
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Posted 05 June 2013 - 05:43 PM
The problem with the Cold Bolt build is that you can't fully utilize what wind emblem was intended for without JT from sorcerer. Again though, it's nearly impossible to tell for sure without a damage meter(although I didn't pot in the video any I think.
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