Guild Supply/Treasure Update

We've had a lot of suggestions coming from guild leaders regarding treasures and how the system could be updated. Many of the drops from castle treasure right now do not serve a very meaningful purpose and are cluttering up storages (I've seen it doing restorations) and finding a way for Guild Leaders to make better use of them wouldn't be a bad idea. 

Thanks Oda!

Discussing this last night a few ideas were thrown around.

Have only one type of the pre-trans equip drop per fort (Muffler, Guard etc) and lower the rates on it a bit. This will mean that the items are still available through forts to get fed into the market but outside of holding like 8 forts you're not going to get flooded with different types of stuff to sell.

Include a token that can be exchanged for bomb/edp/slim materials at an even rate (economically). You'd get maybe enough over a week (from one zero econ fort) to supply say 150-200 bombs, 20 edp, 1-1.5k slims. This is not enough for a whole guild sure, but this solution shouldnt 100% replace materials from other sources, just supplement the servers overall supplies. 

Consider adding some trans gear to the boxes. TIdals, Wool Scarf, BLBs etc. Not at as high of a rate as the pre-trans stuff. You could even go so far as to consider putting some Valk gear at VERY low rates in some of the "less desirable" forts (Sleip, Bris and maybe even Hammer) to make holding them less of an afterthought.

It's kind of a hard thing to balance without lining econ holders pockets and giving enough to 0 econ holders to encourage them to keep going.

I would enjoy seeing the exchange idea implemented. We definitely need a way to get some bombs/acids for woe. Maybe not so much the valk gears, but definitely some trans gear that would not make much of a difference if it eventually flooded the market (Dragon Breath [1] maybe?)

 without lining econ holders pockets

 

Isn't that the point of econ? lawl.

I think one thing you could do is find a way to upgrade the gears (turn 4 mufflers into a +7 for example) so that they decrease in volume but still have value.

Putting in the treasure box trade in for supplies would be a real boost. Maybe make the different slotted gears turn into supply materials as well?

I don't think it needs to be as convoluted as re-doing the entire treasure system, as that gear will always have a use, despite being saturated... but more turning that gear into useful things. Like Supplies, or valk gear. A huge turn in could give a slotted mid. There are possibilities.

It could be as simple as a Grandma-boxter style points system turning in the crap loot for other things. On the upside, it would allow non WoE participants to turn their craploots (should they ever feel the desire to hunt sohees, raydrics, argiopes or munaks) into something nice, eventually. 

Isn't that the point of econ? lawl.

Besides getting a higher chance for god item pieces? I get what you're saying and it's poor-ish choice of words on my part I guess. I'd rather treasure was as equally useful and similarly easy to manage for those with econ as those without. Right now holding econ (when you take god pieces and OCAs out of the equation) more of a burden than a blessing.

My concern with doing something like exchanges for overupgraded gear is devaluing the upgraded versions, it just totally bypasses the current upgrade system we have. Even the exchanging of bulk items for xyz of other things, the thing with the current drops is they all have an individual price and throughout the server the prices have been fluctuating regularly. Lately with all the econ things are getting cheaper and there's less buyers, there's obviously something we can do to help out with all the extra stuff being stockpiled, but is it okay to just value all the pre-trans slotted items equally? They're easy to obtain when all you're doing is breaking boxes but killing sohees, munaks, raydrics and argiopes are at different levels for plenty of non-woe players (not all of them sure, but enough for it to make a difference).

not really, if you set the rate to requiring 4~5 of each item to make a +7, you're going above the average of the usual ~3 to make a +7.

As you know, killing each of those monsters gives you mufflers/sohees, shoes/munaks, Chainmails/raydrics and boots/argiopes - what the idea I;'m suggesting entails is giving each one a point value. So Rays are harder to kill than a sohee? 2x the point value! Get 500 pts and get a valk armor... (silly numbers but to get the point across)

So you could trade in 250 chainmails OR 500 mufflers for a valk armor!

Edited by Xellie, 18 September 2013 - 10:30 PM.

Thanks Oda!

 

Discussing this last night a few ideas were thrown around.

 

Have only one type of the pre-trans equip drop per fort (Muffler, Guard etc) and lower the rates on it a bit. This will mean that the items are still available through forts to get fed into the market but outside of holding like 8 forts you're not going to get flooded with different types of stuff to sell.

 

Include a token that can be exchanged for bomb/edp/slim materials at an even rate (economically). You'd get maybe enough over a week (from one zero econ fort) to supply say 150-200 bombs, 20 edp, 1-1.5k slims. This is not enough for a whole guild sure, but this solution shouldnt 100% replace materials from other sources, just supplement the servers overall supplies. 

 

Consider adding some trans gear to the boxes. TIdals, Wool Scarf, BLBs etc. Not at as high of a rate as the pre-trans stuff. You could even go so far as to consider putting some Valk gear at VERY low rates in some of the "less desirable" forts (Sleip, Bris and maybe even Hammer) to make holding them less of an afterthought.

 

It's kind of a hard thing to balance without lining econ holders pockets and giving enough to 0 econ holders to encourage them to keep going.

Conversely, instead of "lining econ holders' pockets," this is likely just to increase the amount of people that just solo break a fort or two at the end of WoE to keep for themselves, as opposed to encouraging guilds to get stronger and work together.  Or, so I fear.

you're free to go and stop them, or break down the castles to prevent it.

please add exchange for slotted gears/treasure boxes/tribals for woe supplies (acid/grenade bottles, poison bottles, yggs seeds, blue herbs, etc)

please add exchange for slotted gears/treasure boxes/tribals for woe supplies (acid/grenade bottles, poison bottles, yggs seeds, blue herbs, etc)

This so much

This is so important, it can't wait any longer.

woe would be self sufficient instead of bot reliant

How much supplies do you think a guild should be earning from a 0 econ fort over a week worth of treasures?

mmaybe not straight up supplies, but make it so you can exchange into tokens

example

Silver Tokens (worth 1pts which is tradeins for sloted gears)

Gold Tokens (worth 50pts which tradeins for treasure boxes)

Platinum Tokens (worth 500pts which tradeins for god pieces)

now that there is point system add an npc where u can trade ins those tokens for let say supplies (eg- starsands/stems/blue herbs/alcohol/karvo)

now let say u have 100 silver tokens and u want to trade it in (100pts) you have an npc like kafra shop who will sell those supplies (eg 10 pts = 250 starsands)

Before finding out how much zeny worth of supplies one castle (0-15 econ throughout the week) should be giving in a week, first you would need to figure out how much worth of supplies is used in one WoE. 

Let's estimate what a high end 20 man guild would use for an average WoE SE (not pre casting).

1. 20k matelas ~ 160m

2. 2k blue pots ~ 60m (20,000 x 3000)

3. 300 ygg seeds ~ 30m (120k x 250 (about 50 yggs from 1 castle))

4. 1k speed pots ~ 50m (50k x 1000)

5. 10 dex food boxes ~ 100m (10m x 15)

6. 2k bombs ~ 200m (100,000 x 2000) I know it costs less to buy the supplies and make them but cbf to figure the price of that out.

7. poison bottles, anything else ~ XXXXX

I'd say the avg guild would spend about 500-700m for one WoE SE.

-

With that being said, I think one castle (going from 0-15 econ in 1 week) should give you about 200-250m potential worth of supplies. (half for WoE FE since there are 20 castles instead of 10?)

You'd probably get somewhere around 10 OCA's in that 1 week which is about 100m (everything else is absolutely worthless), so you should be able to turn in the treasure boxes, slotted gears, and tribals for points that total a relative equivalent of 100m. Points that can be turned in for supplies such as blue pots, acid/bottle grenades, poison bottles, starsand, speed pots.

All supplies obtained through point conversion should be WoE tagged (WoE Acid Bottle for example) and only be usable in WoE.

Edited by iamvrypwrful, 24 September 2013 - 09:10 AM.

Thanks Oda!

 

Discussing this last night a few ideas were thrown around.

 

Have only one type of the pre-trans equip drop per fort (Muffler, Guard etc) and lower the rates on it a bit. This will mean that the items are still available through forts to get fed into the market but outside of holding like 8 forts you're not going to get flooded with different types of stuff to sell.

 

Include a token that can be exchanged for bomb/edp/slim materials at an even rate (economically). You'd get maybe enough over a week (from one zero econ fort) to supply say 150-200 bombs, 20 edp, 1-1.5k slims. This is not enough for a whole guild sure, but this solution shouldnt 100% replace materials from other sources, just supplement the servers overall supplies. 

 

Consider adding some trans gear to the boxes. TIdals, Wool Scarf, BLBs etc. Not at as high of a rate as the pre-trans stuff. You could even go so far as to consider putting some Valk gear at VERY low rates in some of the "less desirable" forts (Sleip, Bris and maybe even Hammer) to make holding them less of an afterthought.

 

It's kind of a hard thing to balance without lining econ holders pockets and giving enough to 0 econ holders to encourage them to keep going.

The amount of supplies you're suggesting are about enough for 1/3 of a person in a good woe day lol
 

The amount of supplies you're suggesting are about enough for 1/3 of a person in a good woe day lol
 

Correct.

Wouldn't it make sense to be able to support 3-5 people or so for free per 0 econ fort? It won't be totally self sufficient but taking 3 forts and having it cover literally 1 person's supplies is insane.

*if that's what you're going for*

Edited by Viri, 23 September 2013 - 07:38 PM.

Sorry was a little busy with something and couldnt expand on that.

The reason the number seems so low is, it takes the entire server into account. Instead of looking at "a guild" or "a fort" when you multiply the listed supplies by 20 or 30 that's the number of items you're injecting into the economy not taking into account any forts with econ. I dont believe supplies given directly by treasure should fund a 20 man guild from a 0 econ fort. Especially when you consider how many forts are "up for grabs" at the end of woe these days.

It was also taking into account that the forts were still going to be dropping items, instead of just suppies + ocas. There would still be some slotted gear to go along with it.

Edited by Themes, 23 September 2013 - 07:48 PM.

Don't make the conso usable out of woe. (blue pot like bg blue pot, bomb usable only on woe map, and the same for all conso no exchange after deal with the npc)

Don't add more chance to win GL from this system.

Add ACA from Treasure Box and make it tradable this can make your guild rich fast with no other change in TB (you want make equality from new and old guild but old guild have GR/DR/MP/MVP Card actually and new guild can only sell or turn in OCA and have less than 5 chance per week to have a GR/DR/MP)

Valk spends less than 500m on both sieges combined each week, however we also take a very conservative approach to using supplies and fighting people in order to maximize our profits.

I think the estimate of 200~250m worth of supplies for a 1~15 econ fort is fairly accurate, but only supposing that drops were completely replaced by supplies (including OCAs and all other non-god item drops.)

I don't personally think that this is the best idea, the various guild drops contribute greatly to the overall economy, as well as helping people make basic gears and items.  I would rather see a system that reduces the "junk" gear drops and replaces say, 50% of those drops with useful supply supplements.  I think instead that an estimate of say, 50~75 mil worth of items would be quite generous per 1 econ fort per week while the forts kept most of their other drops.  These supplies wouldn't need to completely replace guilds buying and preparing normal supplies, just cut down on the number of junk items that need to be picked up and dealt with by removing the middle man between the junk items dropping and them becoming guild supplies.

Edit: I also don't feel like there should be any need to restrict the items usage to WoE only.  There are no current restrictions on what guilds do with the money they earn from taking forts, and I don't see why that would change.  If people wanted to turn in their supplies and use them in PvM instead of WoE that should be fine as long as there isn't an overabundance of supplies provided, and also far easier to implement.

Edited by Tolrin, 23 September 2013 - 08:01 PM.

50% or more conso from this system probably go in vending. We probably see Poison bottle for less than 50k, the same for Bomb and we probably kill the potter with this system. 

The prices for bottle grenades, acid bottles, and poison bottles are rising too high (200k~300k). The price needs to be lowered.

We don't want anyone affording an asprika by selling these supplies if the ingredients came from bot vends.

Why do brewers have so many ingredients to make so much of this stuff?

Are the ones who vend the ingredients legit? Who has the time to hunt this stuff?

Seems pretty suspicious.

Valk spends less than 500m on both sieges combined each week, however we also take a very conservative approach to [...] fighting people in order to maximize our profits.

Well. Valhalla I don't track its spending from WoE to WoE but I do know that when I am forced to buy bombs off the market these past few weeks my costs end up looking somewhat like NASA's annual budget. I've never spent more than 500m on a weekend of WoEs  ( a week of okolnir costs me something like 270mil if we do a run every day).

And I am not conservative at all! Oh noooooooo.

I probably use an average of the following in a week:

20k stems

22k poison spores.

9000 Empty bottles

5k fabrics

1k mermaid hearts

5k immortal hearts

20k Mastela (replace with starsand; would require 30k)

Champs are supplied with berries and seeds from the econs/mvps.

I might hand out up to 2k strawberries to the WHOLE GUILD. But they have BG blues, those are "free"

A lot of this stuff can be just hunted. Zenorc fangs are in excess due to the small time OD2 was afkemist heaven. Fabrics and hearts are all reasonable. the other crap however isn't.

And its been fine until recently. Recently the stuff doesn't vend and there's no human way to hunt this crap. I'm in favour of adding these mats to both WoE supplies and BG rewards to fix that. We're used to this kind of play now, not having it creates a sense of anti-fun.

I think bg rewards should be something like a crate of 50 bomb sets per win (10 badges for 50 bombs)

a zero econ castle shouldn't give more than a 50 econ castle.... and why? Because the castles don't get broken down. So rather than getting the mats and supplies etc from treasure, I think it should be rewarded daily based on econ. I know NPCs can check the econ of the fort.

And that should be no more than  50 bomb sets a day.

My bombers get 700-1500 bombs based on what we're planning to do. Castle wouldn't the the only source of income.

Now, trade in craploots for starsand, or crates of mats for bomb. This means people have to spend time potting them. Or not, maybe they can feed the mats to an npc to save time and get bombs back for a fee. I'd do it, I'm lazy.

Also allow craploots to be traded up for better gear via a points system, trans gear etc. This will give value to craploots throughout the game. Didn't get enough to trade in for a valk armor? Vend it and someone else will buy them up in order to do so.

and ffs don't do loot trade in for god item parts. That's silly.

edit: I have focused here on amounts of things not value or cost. Value and cost fluctuate and change. What I'm trying to get to is a figure that is a reasonable base amount to have on hand... based on usage. Not cost.

additional info: According to ragial; enough stems vended between the last two woes for less than 4200 alcohol assuming 100% success rate potting. Considering I purchased many of them and still didn't have enough - my main concern is these getting on to market.

And only enough poison spores for 200 alcohol. I'm lucky I had a supply sitting around on an old account to raid, but it's really been this way for a while.

Edited by Xellie, 23 September 2013 - 11:19 PM.

You use 4-5k bomb per woe ? Do you bomb the barricade? You probably speak about renewal?

4k bombs per woe doesn't seem excessive at all. Then again it would depend on the number of bombers a guild runs. I imagine a bomber could easily use 500 bombs per woe, so that's 1k bombs per week. Note that I say 500 bombs per woe on woes like this, if woes got any busier that could easily translate to 2k bombs per week per bomber.

That being said, it might be a bit excessive to allow castles to let guilds use that many bombs each week without needing to do anything at all. The most important thing would be to determine how much you want castles to provide at 0-15 econ and go from there. Perhaps the best way to get supplies out of treasure boxes (as well as the easiest) is to simply make an NPC that allows you to trade slotted gear in for certain supplies. I wouldn't even bother coding them to be usable in WoE alone, if people want to use them in BG what's the harm really?

Edited by Hrishi, 23 September 2013 - 11:34 PM.