Comparison of Magician skills

Well, I got a bit confused when I read this comment on Fireball in another guide:

Fireball:

This skill you should at least have 1 point in it. Maxing it is debatable, as you could easily get off 2 high damaging Fire Bolts equivalent to the time it takes to cast 1 Fire Ball with DoT damage. Unless of course, you are completely lucky with getting Fire Ball Mastery procs, then maxing it is more beneficial. Maxing this skill is completely up to you.

This sounds odd. Likewise at the first glance, the three basic skills (Colt Bolt, Fire Bolt, Lightning Bolt) sound unfair: "Cold bolt has 0.5sec casting time and Fire Bolt 1sec"....

I've haven't made an exact measurement here, but assume that beside the 'known' casting time, there is also a 1sec recast delay (or animation time). Therefore the total time between two Fire Bolts (the start of two consecutive casting time bars) equals 2sec.

Assuming this 1sec casting delay, the DPS (damage per second) calculation would look like this:

Cold Bolt: 38% damage / (0.5 + 1) sec = 25.3

Fire Bolt: 49% damage / (1.0 + 1) sec = 24.5

Lightning Bolt: 22% damage / (0 + 1) sec = 22.2

Now the damage output of all these three skills don't look that different anymore.

Regarding the initial quotation, The Fireball would also have a 1sec casting delay, which increases the total recast time to 3sec. Therefore, you can cast only 1.5 Fire Bolts (2sec total)  by the time it takes to cast a Fireball. So let's also calculate the dps value of the fireball:

Fireball:

56% initial damage

8.4% after 2sec

8.4% after 4sec

Total: 72.8% damage

DPS: 24.3% (total damage / 3sec)

How did I get to this result? 56% is the initial damage, but the Fireball also does 30% damage of this initial damage distributed over the course of the next 5 sec. Basically, this means a short damage debuff that ticks twice with 15% of the initial damage. If you look at the resulting 24.3% dps value, it's quite similar to the Fire Bolt mentioned above.

So if my assumption of 1sec delay is correct, the competition between the three initial skills knows 3 winners:

Frost Bolt: additional slow effect for free

Fire Bolt: by far the lowest mana cost per second for the same overall damage

Lightning Bolt: highest mana cost, but highest mobility advantage and double DPS on frozen targets

But it also shows that there is actually no reason to cast a Fireball with the 'normal' casting time if you've maxed the Firebolt as well.

_________________________

However, if I continue this calculation on to Fire Arms, things are getting interesting. Fire Arms grants a 30% chance that the Fire Bolt deals 40% of the initial damage over time and grants a 10% overall damage bonus. The calculation looks like:

Fire Bolt + Fire Arms:

53.9% initial damage (49% x 1.1)

10.78% after 2sec (40% of 53.9)

10.78% after 4sec

Total: 75.46% damage

DPS: 37.73% (total damage / 2sec)

So if the Fire Arms secondary effect triggers, it causes a boost from 49% => 75.46%.... a damage increase of 54%.

However, since this happens only with a 30% probability, the theorectical average damage increase is 23.3% (40% DoT / 30% + 10% overall). I also wrote the 'theoretical' increase, since DoT effects don't stack. That's why the best thing you can get out of it, is an always active trigger.

Let's postulate another assumption:

Haste rate doesn't just reduce the duration of the casting bar, but also reduces the above mentioned recast delay.

This means that all skills have a profit of haste rate. This means that even an assassin would attack faster while using a guardian, although none of his skills has such a casting bar.

If so, then the Wind Arms gets interesting here as it grants a 20% haste bonus. Although it's debatable as well if I could state this, but attacking 20% faster equals 20% damage over the course of time. Therefore the Wind Arms also grants (even without the triggered effect) a static 20% damage bonus, which is quite similar to the Fire Arms total bonus (especially if you accept certain loss due to overlap).

The conclusion would be that you might consider the Wind Arms as a Magician as well. It might be a bit of a tradeoff though. Fire Flower won't benefit from the haste rate, but you are faster at gathering Pyromaniac stacks and you profit from a reduced Frost Driver casting time as well. If you combine this with the initial comparison between Fire Bolt and Lightning Bolt (nearly the same damage output), you might even consider to prefer Lightning Bolt over Fire Bolt as well. (This means no Pyromaniac stacks and higher SP cost, but more damage if combined with Frost Driver and Frost Nova) and still allows you to use Fireflower).

Another word on Dragonology:

The +10% increase in INT doesn't mean a 10% damage bonus!!! A large chunk of your attack power is determined by the attack power of your weapon. I can't really speak for the Wizard though, but for my Warrior, the calculation (using +10% STR boost instead) looks like this:

Weapon: 757

Strength: 726

Attack Power: 2165

Therefore the bonus from the equivalent party buff is +72 STR or +144 PATK (in reality, its even a bit less). In percentages: +6.65% damage = 6.65% higher DPS value. In other words, a 1.33% increase per skill point.

Maxing Fireball Mastery, grants a 20% chance to reduce the total casting time from 3sec to 1sec. In other words, you can cast one 1sec-Fireball for every 5 Firebolts = 28.9% damage on average... or 4.4% more damage than just casting Fire Bolts (+1.46% per skill point).

On contrast, every skill point in Fireflower increases the effectiveness of that skill by 12.5% on average. Assuming zero Haste rate, a Fire Bolt would also castable every other second. 15% (Fireflower) on top of the 49% (Fire Bolt) = +30% damage bonus = +30% higher DPS value.... or +2.5% for each skill points after the first.

To sum it up: Leveling Fireflower would increase your DPS nearly twice as much as leveling Dragonology, but the latter grants a bonus to multiple characters during a raid.

I don't want to say that you should choose the one over the other. I just want to show that maximizing Dragonology isn't a must-feature and to clearify that +10% INT doesn't mean +10% damage.... (BTW: the Soulmaker buff is strictly better (grants a higher bonus and affects definitely all 10 raid members)).

Edited by Greven79, 30 October 2013 - 08:50 AM.

Let's postulate another assumption:

Haste rate doesn't just reduce the duration of the casting bar, but also reduces the above mentioned recast delay.

Was there a reason for this? I can't remember any time when I felt that this was true, but I've never tested it rigorously.

The easiest way to tell would be WA on/off and see how long it takes to cast 10 lightning bolts.
 

 

I don't want to say that you should choose the one over the other. I just want to show that maximizing Dragonology isn't a must-feature and to clearify that +10% INT doesn't mean +10% damage.... 

 It is up to you whether to max the INT buff or not, but you should not forget that this is the only reason why wizards are allowed to take a raid spot (being the worst dps class)

 It is up to you whether to max the INT buff or not, but you should not forget that this is the only reason why wizards are allowed to take a raid spot (being the worst dps class)

Well, if you believe that the mentioned 6% damage buff is that important, that's fine.

I'd always take a Wizard with me if I have the chance (there are a lot more rangers out there).... and I'd always prefer them over any Assassin or Rogue. Melee DPS usually die quite alot and don't care about adds the way they should. (Too lazy  to walk or switch targets?)

As a Priest, I really like a Wizard in a raid. If it's a good one, I can be really sure that no mob ever gets close... Frost Nova + Meteor Storm and everything is fine. In addition, Wizards can take care of themself MUCH, MUCH better than a ranger could ever do it. They can heal themself (Blasted Water Arms), they can protect themself completely (Ice Wall) if targeted by some of those blue AoE and the forward teleport is usually much better to get out of non-full-circle AoEs. And ... well a minor but highly annoying fact... there is no whining about the second or third Poisoning Arrow override.

Was there a reason for this? I can't remember any time when I felt that this was true, but I've never tested it rigorously.

 

The easiest way to tell would be WA on/off and see how long it takes to cast 10 lightning bolts.
 

All I know is the neither my Warrior, nor the Assassin has something similar to a casting bar. And I can assure you that Haste increases my attack speed. Otherwise Haste gear would make no sense at all. I simply assume the same behavior for other classes as well. Would be strange, if a Lightning Wizard would be the only class choice that wouldn't benefit of it.
 

Edited by Greven79, 31 October 2013 - 02:42 AM.

If melees are bad players, it does not mean that wizards should suck that much dps-wise and be fine - a good melee does not die much and their dps is higher than that of wizards.

Adds and frost novas:  embus and vadors >>>>> that any wizard (you can still aoe and adds will die a bit quicker, but if you stay afk, little will change add-wise)

Survival compared to rangers: the funniest thing is, if a good ranger dies and loses all his threat mid-fight, they will still be ahead of you by the end of the fight. Teleport - they have acrobatic (a similar skill)

Poison arrow: losing 1 poison arrow is not a big deal, the ranger who does not use it will still do much better dps than the wizard

It basically means, that the INT buff is the only reason why the class is not completely shunned from parties.

About haste and other damage calculations: you may find this topic interesting, there is some math there (but it's a long one)

I don't know what game you're playing, but Wizards I know usually deal quite a lot of damage. Let's compare the skills:

(Both with Owl's Wisdom and Fire Arms)

Ranger: Charge Arrow - 49% damage, 1sec cooldown

Wizard: Fire Bolt - 54% damage, 1sec cooldown

Ranger: Double Strafing - 46.9% damage, instant cast. requires 2 Charge Arrows

Wizard: Fireball + Mastery - 86.2% total damage, instant cast, requires 5 Fire Bolts

Ranger: Fear Breeze - 2% haste rate per 2 Charge Arrow + 1 Double Strafing

Wizard: Pyromaniac - 2% haste rate per 2 Fire Bolts

Ranger: Vulcan Arrow - 101.4% damage, 10sec cooldown

Wizard: Fire Explosion - 121% damage, 10sec cooldown

Ranger:

Poison Arrow - 22.9% DoT

Falcon - 30% DoT, usable 25% of total time (not sure if it profits from Owl)

Wizard:

Fire Arms - 21.56% DoT whenever Fire Bolt triggers. Usable 30%-100% of total time.

Fire Flower  - 16.5% DoT

Up to this point, it sounds quite fair.

The only 2 skills that could make the Ranger better are Main Ranger and True Sight.

But in ontrast, I haven't spoken about Blast Arms.

Let's compare gear as well:

Ranger: Colo Weapon + Quiver - 524 damage, 166 STR, 43 AGI, 133 VIT; 179 haste/vigor

Wizard:  Colo Weapon - 788 damage, 191 INT, 48 AGI, 143 VIT, 179 haste/vigor

So in total, where is the overall inbalance in favor for the Ranger???

@Link:

They assume that haste wouldn't increase overall speed. And I am REALLY sure this isn't true. As I've already said, my Warrior highly profits from Guardian or CoA gear haste bonus, although I don't ave any casting bar. Ergo: The calculation there is wrong.

Edited by Greven79, 03 November 2013 - 09:18 AM.

You totally neglecting the animation before-cast and after-casts for Wizard. Haste doesn't cut that, nor global cd. I wouldn't say animation is bad, for later game animation is good for eye candy, but this game just separating the casting and animation (there's no casting-while-animation except for certain skills for some class). Should I go about the projectiles as well? All in all, if Firebolt says 1 sec, it just literally means 2-3 sec to deal damage. No, haste doesn't increase projectile speed as well.

In the link, some of it was tested in game, literally the numbers weren't just by theories and words alone. Yes it is possible to achieve 100% haste rate but without DoT. I did it as well. But, it was just exceptionally good if and only if Wiz doesn't get disabled. 

Yes, Wiz damage is good. But it's just that. Nothing more. And yes, Wiz is just great in other games. Wiz WAS great in RO2, till Gravity nerfed it two years ago, leaving nothing but Dragonology. 

Edited by FluffyMiyu, 03 November 2013 - 10:23 AM.

Well, let's not argue anymore, because you are not quite aware of what you are talking about. Maybe it can be explained by the fact that your main character is not a wizard. However, it's good that someone still cares about wizards and tries to do present some ideas.

Let me add a few remarks: 

Many rangers don't even use vulcan arrow, as it's animation is not worth it (but they are still more than fine) Wizards can use Fire Explosion only once per about 25-30 seconds, not 10 (the 10 sec cd is there just to laugh at you)

Wizards' animations and aftercast delays are much worse than rangers'.

Fireballs proc once in a blue moon, not every 5 FB casts.

Fire arms overwrites itself which results in wasted procs and completely screws up your crit procs.

It just seems that you didn't raid with good players, that's it. But it does not mean that wizards are fine. Ever seen 900k+ dps rangers? I don't think you have.

The maths in the topic I linked is actually very true and was tested in game. Haste does very little for wiz, the guardian haste is the only exception (it seems that its haste+vigor produces that effect)

Many rangers don't even use vulcan arrow, as it's animation is not worth it (but they are still more than fine) Wizards can use Fire Explosion only once per about 25-30 seconds, not 10 (the 10 sec cd is there just to laugh at you)

You misjudge things here. No skill in RO2 ought to be supperior. Although the 'top-tier' skills deal more damage, you pay for that damage with an increased animation time... or overall casting time. That's true for most classes. There are Rogues without Moonlight dance as well. My Warrior's Rage Strike also has a higher animation time and a Genesis Ray has quite a casting time.

The main difference is the secondary effect. For rangers, the poison arrow duration is resetted, whereas a wizard can stun the target. Add the latter to the Vulcan Arrow and more Rangers would use it.

The cooldown for Fire Explosion isn't a good argument about the DPS difference here, for the reasons mentioned right before. You won't be fast enough to generate Pyromanic stacks however to use the 10sec cooldown however, but that doesn't hurt: A Firebolt has a total casting time of 2.4sec without haste (not the 2.3sec mentioned in thread you've linked the last time).

On the average, you would gain 10 Pyromaniac stacks per Firebolt. Therefore, it requires 10x 2.4sec = 24sec to actually be able to cast it.

If you would be lucky and always get the maximum Pyromaniac stacks, the cooldown would be reduced to 100/15 x 2.4sec = 16sec.

Assuming your way to calculate haste, using Wind Arms would further reduce it to 100/15 * 2.2sec = 14.7sec

Leveling the Pyromaniac skill as well would also grant Haste. Let's assume an average of ~5% Haste => 14sec.

Now also assume that Fireball mastery would trigger a few times and you will be able to cast an instant Fireball instead of a Fire Bolt with casting time and you could actually reach the cooldown.

All in all, I doubt your calculation with 25-30sec is correct in any case, since haste boni from gear would further reduce the overall casting time of Fire Bolt.
 

Wizards' animations and aftercast delays are much worse than rangers'.

Also not true in general. A Fire Bolt takes a total of 2.4sec to be cast. A Charge Arrow ... now guess ... also takes 2.4sec to be cast. I've tested this yesterday, using a low-level bow and with 20+ uses in succession against a single monster (to get quite a precise result). Both fundamental skills as equally fast. I've saved the vids on my pc. So I could send them to you if you're interested.

Fireballs proc once in a blue moon, not every 5 FB casts.

Are you familar with the concept of 'the average'? Maybe you will then guess what I could have meant.

It just seems that you didn't raid with good players, that's it. But it does not mean that wizards are fine. Ever seen 900k+ dps rangers? I don't think you have.

As I've said before, I also know a few Wizards and their threat level wasn't far away from being underwhelming if compared to a ranger. Bringing up things like that also has the touch of 'having no arguments' - IMO, since you've brought up no numbers that support your thesis.

The maths in the topic I linked is actually very true and was tested in game. Haste does very little for wiz, the guardian haste is the only exception (it seems that its haste+vigor produces that effect)

You're true, I only guessed it and haven't tested it on my own yet. However, you still ignored one of my arguments that haste will reduce the overall attack speed => Assassins gain haste and have no casting bar. So feel free to answer this.

Up till then, I might have tested it on my own: I plan to level up a new Wizard to level 7-8 with lvl 5 Wind Arms this weekend... and perform tests on my own. This shouldn't take too long.

You're true, I only guessed it and haven't tested it on my own yet. However, you still ignored one of my arguments that haste will reduce the overall attack speed => Assassins gain haste and have no casting bar. So feel free to answer this.

I'm still trying to confirm this. I couldn't see a difference between a fully geared level 50 with WA and a new magician using LB. The only thing I could do to test it more accurately is try to break it down frame by frame.

Tu~ tu~ ruuu~~

Wizard's Fire Explosion stun 3 sec, BUT animation for that skill is also approximately 3 sec if you count his jump and his landing. THAT 3 sec of animation has lesser damage than casting 3 Firebolt for 3 sec. Fire Explosion is a waste time skill that can't be cut by having more Haste. Not to mention is has miss chance. On the other hand, having more Haste giving more Firebolt that can be shoot than casting a single Fire Explosion.

Mage can one shot every mob from level1 till level7. There's no argument in that. So, you won't feel anything by having low level mage. Get a level50 instead. Wiz is highly gear dependant by having better Haste, better burn, and better crit.

Fire Wiz is a no no for PvP. It doesn't have utils except the stun cancelling from the disgusting Fire Explosion.

Again with the paper talk, if you really like to calculate that way, then chaos probably can change the tide, but then again, if Wiz can get better with Chaos, why other class couldn't? *shrugs*

Edited by FluffyMiyu, 07 November 2013 - 08:22 AM.

It's no use arguing with people who don't even have a level 50 wizard. 

If you saw wizards doing dps comparable to rangers, it only means that those rangers were just incredibly bad.

Edited by elvenne, 07 November 2013 - 08:33 AM.

tl;dr wiz top tier threat holder with lightning bolt & embus freeze