Tiki Tuesday Question lounge 11/5

Is there a stream today?

Appears to be :V

Edited by Toxn, 05 November 2013 - 02:36 PM.

2. Balance for Thief/Rogue Classes. There are no real skills to speak of.

Acknowledged and asked for specifications.

 

this hotfix happened in October 10th, 2013 on kRO

 

Ignored.

What is this thread for?

Where are the answers again?

What specifications do they need and/or want to do a skill balance? If it's a matter of how this class isn't balanced, all that needs to be done is to look at this classes skills, or actually lack of attack skills, & compare them to any other class. I've previously mentioned that Back Stab is the only attack skill this class has. Which is pretty worthless since you can only possibly use it for one attack. Hiding doesn't help you attack & neither does Back Slide. Sure there is Double Attack but that doesn't compare to other skills or do a lot of good when you are starting out. Sightless Mind is the only one good skill, however it takes a lot of preqs, before you can get it.

Ignored.

What is this thread for?

You asked for the date, and the question was already answered when i asked for it along with baby owl. They said they'd request for it but not sure if they'd get it or not. Whats your point? 

Where are the answers again?

 

What specifications do they need and/or want to do a skill balance? If it's a matter of how this class isn't balanced, all that needs to be done is to look at this classes skills, or actually lack of attack skills, & compare them to any other class. I've previously mentioned that Back Stab is the only attack skill this class has. Which is pretty worthless since you can only possibly use it for one attack. Hiding doesn't help you attack & neither does Back Slide. Sure there is Double Attack but that doesn't compare to other skills or do a lot of good when you are starting out. Sightless Mind is the only one good skill, however it takes a lot of preqs, before you can get it.

Rogue/stalker is pretty powerful class early on. they have decent AoE to support mobbing grinding style, and intimidate allows them to learn other classes skill and there are so much option to choose from. stalker enhances that and makes them preserve the skill. rogue was designed to be 1:1 and griefing specialist in pvp situation. Also designed to excel at cunning strategy with their Intimidate skill. SC overall is pretty balanced class already. if you want specific class to get balanced, and suggest, you really need to specify which skill need what balance, and which skill need to get buffed, stuff like that. not just say back stab is only attacking skill they got, and give another option like Sightless Mind is also a good skill(which is also attack skill.)

You asked for the date, and the question was already answered when i asked for it along with baby owl. They said they'd request for it but not sure if they'd get it or not. Whats your point? 

My point is this is the first stream I've watched. Thanks.

Rogue/stalker is pretty powerful class early on. they have decent AoE to support mobbing grinding style, and intimidate allows them to learn other classes skill and there are so much option to choose from. stalker enhances that and makes them preserve the skill. rogue was designed to be 1:1 and griefing specialist in pvp situation. Also designed to excel at cunning strategy with their Intimidate skill. SC overall is pretty balanced class already. if you want specific class to get balanced, and suggest, you really need to specify which skill need what balance, and which skill need to get buffed, stuff like that. not just say back stab is only attacking skill they got, and give another option like Sightless Mind is also a good skill(which is also attack skill.)

Seriously? Have you played this class? It's far from a "Powerful Class early on". I already said that the ONLY skill there is Sightless Mind. That's all you have as a Rogue & it takes awhile before you can get that. I also stated that Intimidate was the ONLY other skill, once you are a Stalker & it takes even longer to get that, due to all the preqs. So no they are NOT a powerful class early on, & no they don't have decent AoE support, to enable a person to mob, and/or grind, in order to solo, & level. Not everyone does PVP, & even when you were to PVP with this character, it wouldn't be till after you leveled up, & you would still need attack skills, not just Divest. Divest only helps as a support skill.

I did specify which class needs to be skill balanced. I can't very well tell the GM's what skills to add in order to do it. I mean I could name other classes skills, but that would be pointless, since multiple classes don't use the same skills

So a class that was entirely created and designed for PVP/WoE sucks at pvm? Who knew.

Seriously? Have you played this class? It's far from a "Powerful Class early on". I already said that the ONLY skill there is Sightless Mind. That's all you have as a Rogue & it takes awhile before you can get that. I also stated that Intimidate was the ONLY other skill, once you are a Stalker & it takes even longer to get that, due to all the preqs. So no they are NOT a powerful class early on, & no they don't have decent AoE support, to enable a person to mob, and/or grind, in order to solo, & level. Not everyone does PVP, & even when you were to PVP with this character, it wouldn't be till after you leveled up, & you would still need attack skills, not just Divest. Divest only helps as a support skill.

 

I did specify which class needs to be skill balanced. I can't very well tell the GM's what skills to add in order to do it. I mean I could name other classes skills, but that would be pointless, since multiple classes don't use the same skills

So rogue have two only skill that is useful. 

Stalker

Lord Knight

This is minimum effort to make that class efficient with their AoE. Intimidate is very flexible skill and can mostly get any skill you want to get. Blazing Shield is decent skill to steal, and u can easily out damage Ninja and scholar with it. I've leveled ninja from 1 to 99 in one day and another one with 2 3xbm in an hour with jumping event, just spamming blazing shield. u can do the same thing as rogue/stalker. same thing for BB in this situation. rogue can get BB and use it just as effective as knight. where as Knight is only stuck with BB tbh. 

and yes i've played this class. infact rogue was my first class ever when i started iRO 5 years ago. they are powerful. and i have made baby chaser too and had no problem levelign with sightless mind with endow on. and u can mob with rogue just find if u have fortune sword and some p dodge gear, and know how to use backslide. i used to mob a lot with just backsliding and party was always happy with mobs they get. infact backsliding would probably do better than snap if done right. and i mostly solo from 1 to 99. and its not hard to  mob and kill with sightless mind, and most likely will out damage a lot of other class if done right.

Edited by CharAznable, 07 November 2013 - 01:44 PM.

So a class that was entirely created and designed for PVP/WoE sucks at pvm? Who knew.

So a new character is really going to PVP without leveling up. I don't think so.

So rogue have two only skill that is useful. 

 

Stalker

 

Lord Knight

 

This is minimum effort to make that class efficient with their AoE. Intimidate is very flexible skill and can mostly get any skill you want to get. Blazing Shield is decent skill to steal, and u can easily out damage Ninja and scholar with it. I've leveled ninja from 1 to 99 in one day and another one with 2 3xbm in an hour with jumping event, just spamming blazing shield. u can do the same thing as rogue/stalker. same thing for BB in this situation. rogue can get BB and use it just as effective as knight. where as Knight is only stuck with BB tbh. 

 

and yes i've played this class. infact rogue was my first class ever when i started iRO 5 years ago. they are powerful. and i have made baby chaser too and had no problem levelign with sightless mind with endow on. and u can mob with rogue just find if u have fortune sword and some p dodge gear, and know how to use backslide. i used to mob a lot with just backsliding and party was always happy with mobs they get. infact backsliding would probably do better than snap if done right. and i mostly solo from 1 to 99. and its not hard to  mob and kill with sightless mind, and most likely will out damage a lot of other class if done right.

There is no need to keep repeating what I have already said about the Intimidate skill, however it is of no use to a Rogue, Thief, and/or a Stalker, to begin with. This one skill does NOT make the Thief Class, a "Powerful Class early on", as you stated, nor does the only other attack skill, Sightless Mind.

You have to transcend, & reach Job 2, before you become a Stalker, & are able to use Intimidate. On top of that you have to acquire many job levels before this skill is even available. Sightless Mind takes awhile to get also but you have to get this before you can even get Intimidate.

Back Stab is totally useless. There is no monster that you can attack, that doesn't attack back, once you do. This is one skill for example that should be changed.

Counter Instinct would be a good skill if it wasn't just for swords & daggers. I mean most monsters don't even use them.

Haggle is totally pointless. That's what merchants are for.

Envenom does basically nothing.

On another note I'm glad you brought up the Ninja Class. I don't have a Ninja but they are much easier to level now that they just had a Skill Balance. I still seriously doubt you could level any character to 99 within an hour even using BMx3's. That is unless you used EMB's or leeched off of someone

Edited by Razzez, 07 November 2013 - 06:52 PM.

I thought this thread was designed to post questions for Oda & Camp. Not so others could criticize the questions that were being asked & interrogate them

how bout boosting priests holylight to do like 10x more damage. i dont understand why this spell is so freaking weak even when the priest has 120 int and the best weapons in game

So a class that was entirely created and designed for PVP/WoE sucks at pvm? Who knew.

no class should be 'entirely' anything in this game since it takes 249 levels to get to a state you can pvp in. this means that you have to endure PVM for a LONG time. theres no denying that. therefor, gravity should provide EFFECTIVE ways for us to level or allow us to just be level 150 instantly upon making a shadow chaser. putting in some gimped ass class that has to leech 249 levels in a grindfest game to be able to be effective in only 1 aspect of the game is a joke

basically its like this:

sightless mind = awesome attack damage and range BUT! due to server latency and various other issues, this spell can become quite useless in many situations due to being ripped out of stealth before being able to cast. the fact that a rogue can even be ripped out of stealth by a non bug/demon monster is a joke. its just as bad as the Vanish bug in world of warcraft that never got fixed. basically whats happening is the server is getting its msgs mixed up and delaying the monsters attack till after the spell is cast, causing it to uncast even though its impossible for the monster to have hit you after cast. it can make repeat casting of sightless mind impossible

Intimidate - this spell is COMPLETELY WORTHLESS for rogue. 90% of the time it will erase itself leaving you helpless. this spell shouldve been taken back to the drawing board and redone to work like Reproduce. i think the only reason its on the pre-trans tree is to fill up space cuz they couldnt think of anything else to put there. this is pretty much a stalker only ability

Backstab - Completely worthless in PVM and now completely worthless in PVP. when Renewal hit and the level cap was raised to 150, this spells mechanics shouldve been changed to be effective in end game competition since its the only attack provided to the class. needs a complete overhaul

Snatch - another completely worthless spell. why does this spell even still exist? the only possible use you could get out of it is to troll/grief people in PVM. its been disabled on all pvp maps leaving it to be completely useless. either reactivate it in pvp, or compensate us for the loss

Piece - another worthless spell that we are forced to put points into as a prereq, basically screwing us out of getting other abilities. This many years later and it still hasnt been implemented. seriously...W..T...F

Dimension Door - disabled on every single map in the game. seriously WTF. the only person this spell even works on is the caster, which serves no purpose whatsoever, yet were forced to put 3 points into it. why put spells in the game then completely disable them and leave them in. overhaul the spell if youre gonna disable spells. thats what WoW did when they wanted to redo spells

Bloody Lust - amazing spell. ridiculous cooldown. at lvl 1 this spell has a 5+minute long cooldown, despite it saying otherwise. maybe this is just a bug, but this is how things are right now

Reproduce - lets you copy other abilities, but without any equipment buffs, they are useless for leveling. They need to implement a set that boosts reproduce damage by 50% or something to make it more manageable. doing 20k arrow storms on monsters with 150k hp is a joke and nobody can possibly level like that. there is no reason for making this spell work so -_-ty.

Triangle Shot - why does this even exist? why was this not buffed the up ages ago?

Fatal Menace - another useless spell that doesnt do what it says it does. seriously, if theyre gonna disable all the teleport attacks (which make up a good number of thief class attacks), then they need to compensate by boosting the out of damage

according to your defense, rogues are a pvp class. yet they have no really effective killing spells in pvp, most of their defensive spells are voided out with maya purple cards (which everyone has now), and all theyre pretty much left with are disables, albeit powerful, that doesnt sound like a very effective pvp class to me. it just sounds like a nuisance made for the sole purpose of disabling and annoying. yes, there are ways to kill people with a rogue, but they are horribly ineffective and require the luck that noone else comes along and kills you before you are able to perform them because theyre so slow and weak

and yes i am familiar with shadow formation. the only way to effectively use this spell is to basically be macguyver and come up with overalborate killing tactics that require insane amounts of finesse and luck

Edited by killedbytofu, 10 November 2013 - 02:11 AM.

Reproduce - lets you copy other abilities, but without any equipment buffs, they are useless for leveling. They need to implement a set that boosts reproduce damage by 50% or something to make it more manageable. doing 20k arrow storms on monsters with 150k hp is a joke and nobody can possibly level like that. there is no reason for making this spell work so -_-ty.

Ok time for me to talk.

Wanderer/Maestro skills that need fixing;

For one, Charming Wink isnt working and comparing it to Pang's Voice it should be working. Pang's Voice is working perfectly fine, and Charming Wink isnt.

For two, Deep Sleep Lullaby was supposed to have a minimum effect of "A minimum duration of 5 seconds is listed, but it is unknown if this is actually working" according to wiki. I really think Deep Sleep Lullaby needs to be worked on/buffed because seriously? Performer classes really are going useless.

For three, I've noticed Swing Dance and Adrenaline Rush don't stack? Is there an explanation for this? Swing Dance's formula; [(Skill Level x 5) + (Voice Lessons Skill Level)] %. which equal 35 for me seems to not be working with Adrenaline Rush's +25%. Ive tested this with suras/mech/genes; and theyve questioned me on why it doesn't stack so im asking yall. Oh and also, I think Swing Dance should be buffed to work like speed pots :v if you have agi up already. That way it can make wanderers more useful and fun and fair .

For four, have you gms considered let alone TESTED the skills of a performer? Seriously, this -_- is really unfair and yall should really consider reducing the cool down on the ACTUAL useful skills; Sinking Melody, Warcry from Beyond, and Maybe Saturday Night Fever. It's quite sad how a performer is useless without another performer in the party, and its quite sad how all the third class skills require another PERFORMER just to use. Seriously; SR is useless for woe, and heck its been nerfed hella bad, Reverbation is bad for both pvm/pvp scenes because the damage splits, gloomy is stuck in between as a buff/debuff like gosh make it one or the other already, Song of Despair affects ur allies which is annoying and you can't use it as much, and just wow.

You gms need to consider checking out performer's class's skills.

>.> I want a fix/buff on 90% of our skills.

Do somethingn like seriously. I miss the days when id actually do something other than GK. I miss the days where I can run around with slow's grace and deep sleep everyone. I miss the days I can actually use song of despair on people without any trouble. I miss the days I didn't need another performer just to use decent skills in woe. I MISS THE DAYS SEVERE RAINSTORM WASNT SO BAD with a stupid cool down and weaker damage.

how bout boosting priests holylight to do like 10x more damage. i dont understand why this spell is so freaking weak even when the priest has 120 int and the best weapons in game

 

  This.

Considering it's a quest skill and that you need to get an Opal and buy/get a Rosary in order to get it, one would expect more...

It's cast time is long and only does 1 hit for meager damage...soon you discover you are much better off Healbombing and the skill just stays there adorning your skill bar.

In other words; are performers skills working as intended?

have performers skills been look/reviewed?

have gms considered buffing or making skills more effective?

ANSWERS PLEASE

  This.

 

Considering it's a quest skill and that you need to get an Opal and buy/get a Rosary in order to get it, one would expect more...

 

It's cast time is long and only does 1 hit for meager damage...soon you discover you are much better off Healbombing and the skill just stays there adorning your skill bar.

You get holy light for free when you trans. I have no idea why holy light is being mentioned at all when talking about "PVM balance" though.

You get holy light for free when you trans. I have no idea why holy light is being mentioned at all when talking about "PVM balance" though.

Considering is the only offensive skill that can harm other monsters than undeads an Aco will get for a long time, it should be a little bit better...sometimes you don't get a party.  But I admit I shouldn't complain, at least here in RO Acolytes can level up killing undeads (I've played games where the only possibility for you was to be a dedicated healbot...ugh)

Onto another different matter.....

Are they gonna implement the ability to Trascend without needing to have 0 zeny on you? Or are they gonna enable sending zenny between chars by mail.

Speaking of mail...a list of mailable items will be nice, specially for new players that didn't experience the mail system until its reintroduction a few months ago.

how bout boosting priests holylight to do like 10x more damage. i dont understand why this spell is so freaking weak even when the priest has 120 int and the best weapons in game

 

 

no class should be 'entirely' anything in this game since it takes 249 levels to get to a state you can pvp in. this means that you have to endure PVM for a LONG time. theres no denying that. therefor, gravity should provide EFFECTIVE ways for us to level or allow us to just be level 150 instantly upon making a shadow chaser. putting in some gimped ass class that has to leech 249 levels in a grindfest game to be able to be effective in only 1 aspect of the game is a joke

 

basically its like this:

 

sightless mind = awesome attack damage and range BUT! due to server latency and various other issues, this spell can become quite useless in many situations due to being ripped out of stealth before being able to cast. the fact that a rogue can even be ripped out of stealth by a non bug/demon monster is a joke. its just as bad as the Vanish bug in world of warcraft that never got fixed. basically whats happening is the server is getting its msgs mixed up and delaying the monsters attack till after the spell is cast, causing it to uncast even though its impossible for the monster to have hit you after cast. it can make repeat casting of sightless mind impossible

 

Intimidate - this spell is COMPLETELY WORTHLESS for rogue. 90% of the time it will erase itself leaving you helpless. this spell shouldve been taken back to the drawing board and redone to work like Reproduce. i think the only reason its on the pre-trans tree is to fill up space cuz they couldnt think of anything else to put there. this is pretty much a stalker only ability

 

Backstab - Completely worthless in PVM and now completely worthless in PVP. when Renewal hit and the level cap was raised to 150, this spells mechanics shouldve been changed to be effective in end game competition since its the only attack provided to the class. needs a complete overhaul

 

Snatch - another completely worthless spell. why does this spell even still exist? the only possible use you could get out of it is to troll/grief people in PVM. its been disabled on all pvp maps leaving it to be completely useless. either reactivate it in pvp, or compensate us for the loss

 

Piece - another worthless spell that we are forced to put points into as a prereq, basically screwing us out of getting other abilities. This many years later and it still hasnt been implemented. seriously...W..T...F

 

Dimension Door - disabled on every single map in the game. seriously WTF. the only person this spell even works on is the caster, which serves no purpose whatsoever, yet were forced to put 3 points into it. why put spells in the game then completely disable them and leave them in. overhaul the spell if youre gonna disable spells. thats what WoW did when they wanted to redo spells

 

Bloody Lust - amazing spell. ridiculous cooldown. at lvl 1 this spell has a 5+minute long cooldown, despite it saying otherwise. maybe this is just a bug, but this is how things are right now

 

Reproduce - lets you copy other abilities, but without any equipment buffs, they are useless for leveling. They need to implement a set that boosts reproduce damage by 50% or something to make it more manageable. doing 20k arrow storms on monsters with 150k hp is a joke and nobody can possibly level like that. there is no reason for making this spell work so -_-ty.

 

 

Triangle Shot - why does this even exist? why was this not buffed the up ages ago?

 

Fatal Menace - another useless spell that doesnt do what it says it does. seriously, if theyre gonna disable all the teleport attacks (which make up a good number of thief class attacks), then they need to compensate by boosting the out of damage

 

according to your defense, rogues are a pvp class. yet they have no really effective killing spells in pvp, most of their defensive spells are voided out with maya purple cards (which everyone has now), and all theyre pretty much left with are disables, albeit powerful, that doesnt sound like a very effective pvp class to me. it just sounds like a nuisance made for the sole purpose of disabling and annoying. yes, there are ways to kill people with a rogue, but they are horribly ineffective and require the luck that noone else comes along and kills you before you are able to perform them because theyre so slow and weak

 

and yes i am familiar with shadow formation. the only way to effectively use this spell is to basically be macguyver and come up with overalborate killing tactics that require insane amounts of finesse and luck

Glad to see someone else understands the fact that they have made it so this class is crippled in it's ability to level up, & PVM, compared to other classes.

You mentioned problems with the same skills & much more then even I did. The other problem with Sightless Mind, even though it's a great attack skill, is that you have to be able to hide, & stay hidden, in order to use this. That's not always possible while you're in the middle of being attacked.

Like you said Intimate is Completely Worthless for a Rogue. As I've been trying to say it's also worthless for a Stalker, for quite some time, due to all the prerequisites needed. Everyone keeps talking about it like it's the only skill you need. Well maybe it would be useful if you were able to get it as a Rogue without any additional prerequisites.

There are many unimplemented skills & most of them are totally worthless.

It doesn't a whole lot of good even, if you have the defensive skills, if you don't have any attack ones, you're still going to get killed.

 

ANSWERS PLEASE

Answers would be nice to have. They haven't posted any these past two weeks. I've been asking about them but getting no response. The first week they said they didn't answer many questions. Don't know what the reason was this week.

I like snatch.  It is like a fun version of a fly wing on leveling maps.  Outside of that I agree a lot with that list for rogues. 

when are we getting a new thread for the next tiki tuesday?

don't know if a new thread matters if we aren't getting answers posted anymore...

starting to feel like this is becoming the same as the TI Suggestion Thread...

today is a holiday though so they probably took the day off.

Edited by Razzez, 11 November 2013 - 04:11 PM.

I really hope things get answered.

>.>

What about RK