CD Changes discussion

Artis can sit back and let the judgement summon kill others? No. I've been on the giving and receiving end of these summons and I do agree that they hit hard. But c'mon. Do you realize how easily artis die? Yes we are ranged but all it takes is a champ to come rush us and we die in 2-3 hits. If you don't want to get killed by the summon, kill the summoner. It's not that difficult.

No not sit back and let it kill people, but together its quite strong. Those summons all hit as pvm afaik, and in pvp gear that aint helping. The thing is, while they hurt, the real problem is they just dont die fast, sure a little tanking is nice but its not a person. The judgement knights seems to have more surviving skills then alot of classes. Killing the summoner can be hard as you have to get past the aoe hell in the center crystal, and manage to target them while being slept all the time. I guess the other problems we have just stack on top of it, making it another one on the list.

Once Leonis brings in his other changes that he was talking about we might see all of the little things a bit differently, but even a bunch of hunters can hurt alot. Those luckily die easily once found. Waiting game for now ......

The summons are strong, yes. But WHY would you go for trying to kill the summon when the arti is 10x easier? I don't understand that mindset at all. One champ/xbow/raider gives an arti enough trouble already. Adding another? Dead. It's just about the gameplay. If you are getting killed by the summon, tell your teammates to kill the damn arti. Artis will keep their range, since being near the aoe death circle will be certain death. And if they're camped in the xtal? Well, go aoe there. They'll be dead long enough.

Kill the arti, don't bother attacking the summon.

I get that, the problem is that we have other problems atm which means that just aoeing the xtal isnt going to work when there is an overkill of healing happening there, targetting the arti is hard because you can't see him, so you'll be standing there using target enemy to get on him. I dont encourage peopel to only go for the summon, going for the summoner is the thing to do, but if you cant get the summoner youll have to get rid of the summon itself. Usually I try  to sleep it so it moves off....

Its true one [insert any class] is enough problems for a arti, but they are never alone, there is always a ton of clerics around. So thats what I meant by the fact that we have other problems that just stack up on the power of the judgement knight alrighty ^^?

I have to say that my raider doesn't have the highest damage inflict in the game but I still don't see the issue behind killing a summon. It's not that hard guys. They usually die by aoes lol.

Edit: However, they're much stronger when buffed but once they're unbuffed it's not an issue. You just have to use the group chat a little it's not like artis tank for days like clerics and knights, matter a fact they're more like raiders and mages.. squishy.

Edited by DigitalKitten, 06 January 2014 - 02:18 PM.

I was being sarcastic about sitting and letting it fight for you.  The Judgement goes through walls and follows farther than the arti range.  And they hit hard.  The other summons most can kill pretty easily, but the Judgement has really high HP. And they are fast as hell lol.  And even if I wanted to I could not kill  the artie, yet the arti typically sends the Judgement against the clerics.  I understand to kill the arti first, and if I could I would be happy to.  

this is a discussing about things that are problems in CD.  Please don't take offense.  A lot of people have talked about the summons in general being pvm based and hitting in GA while in PVP gear.  A lot of the summons hurt.  But the Judgement really hurts and is OP, even if the arti dies fast.  The mage has no summons, and they are as squishy or squishier than the arti.  So that is not a good response.  The summons is a good tactic, but not one that is that much more OP, in my opinion and being on the receiving end.

I am talking about when they are buffed, as in CD.  And maybe they are not that hard to kill if the clerics are healing you.  But I tried to hurt it on my bourg, who hits pretty hard and I did no damage.  And a lot have complained about trying to kill them.  And on a cleric they really hurt but I do ask the group to kill it if I can.  And you are right, killing the arti, who is squishy is the answer, but it seems that the Judgement is a lot more powerful than the other summons.  Maybe it is just the high crti of the arti combined with the 2x crit of the Judgement that does it.  Not saying take them away or get rid of them.  Some people thought they should be looked at.  

 

A lot of people have talked about the summons in general being pvm based and hitting in GA while in PVP gear.  A lot of the summons hurt.  But the Judgement really hurts and is OP, even if the arti dies fast.  The mage has no summons, and they are as squishy or squishier than the arti.  So that is not a good response.  The summons is a good tactic, but not one that is that much more OP, in my opinion and being on the receiving end.

Despite that mages got dispell, they have both aoes and ranged skills. Their damage inflict is higher and it's just one of the classes chosen to be killed first, comparing mage and arti, the arti does need the summon.

No offense taken. I'm just trying to provide an arti's insight, since there is nobody else around. I know the summons hurt like hell. I've been on both ends of it. And of course I'm going to send my summon towards the cleric. If the cleric dies, generally, the team goes also. That's just gameplay. Like I said, it all depends on gameplay. I've already said there is no need to kill the summon when you can easily go for the arti. Do that next couple wars and tell me if you have the same problem.

Just as a point, the Judgement has 37,377 HP, 3838 Def and 756 crit without buffs and without taking into account the players stats.  

Just as a point, the Judgement has 37,377 HP, 3838 Def and 756 crit without buffs and without taking into account the players stats.  

Summons always take in to account player stats, so that statement doesn't make sense. Summon's stats are solely relied on player stats to populate how powerful they will be. If you have no player reference to a summon, it will have no stats.

So there's a lot of discussions going on here. I've seen several points I will agree with and want to work towards tweaking. But there are also other aspects of concern that will have to wait on, because how they are planned to be addressed, requires a little bit of development time for adding minor 'new features' in order for a bit more flexibility in some mechanics.

A quick summery though, so far, Mana Break is going to be adjusted. It will be given a longer cooldown and the value of MP drain will be reduced heavily, however, as there was a suggestion to, a percentage of drain based on the maximum mana of the target, will be drained. We're going to start with 5%, as it was not intended that the Mana Break be a skill that could quickly or easily disable a player. 5% means you'll need 20 casts to totally drain someone (not counting the direct value). We want to see it being used as a group/team strategy, to focus on individuals whom your opponent's team would benefit the most from having the ability to use skills or MP from, but not be able to single handedly cripple them. 5% may be starting small, but I'd rather see how well it goes first and adjust accordingly.

All of your feedback has been very informative and valuable. The Judgement Knight for example actually did have a couple bad settings to him. His crit rate was the first indicator that got me to look at him. There was a couple minor things that could have contributed to that, which have been adjusted and we'll see how that turns out. Additionally, the overall issue of Summons being seen as PvM targets, certainly makes them more powerful and durable, because if they are treated as PvM targets, you are much less powerful against them in full PvP gear! So that'll be another setting that changes, Summons will be considered another player and PvP based for any situation.

Also, some tweaks for the MaxMP passives a Mage has, to help boost the utility of its interaction with Mana Shield.

Things mentioned before, but as a reminder, we are still working on:

• The "rested" status effect trigger, which would reduce the chances of being put to sleep after being affected by it.
• Adjusting the amount of honor you gain from Game Arenas, so there's improved balance between winning and activity, so it is less a farming ground and more about wanting to win.
• Some other adjustments involving some of the other classes that aren't quite so popular, that will help them become more influential to the Game Arena PvP modes.

This summon change won't affect pvm in any way will it?  The hawk summon seems really weak.

Edited by DoubleRose, 06 January 2014 - 05:29 PM.

This summon change won't affect pvm in any way will it?  The hawk summon seems really weak.

It shouldn't, as they do not adopt your PvP/PvM Offense/Defense bonuses in any way.

As for the Hawk, it may need some balancing on its own to help it be more useful. But that's another matter of investigation form what feedback I was reviewing.

If mana break is only 5% based, I want to remove it from my skill list because it would be completely useless regardless of longer cool down or not. Is there a way to partially reset the unique skill without deleting other unique skills because many of my cleric unique skills are not tome skills.

ChampPower, I would recommend not resetting and making some use of it first and give feedback! Consider this, if you get rid of it without trying it, or giving feedback, it may always remain less useful. However, if you remove it before trying, and then we adjust it to be more useful, you now have to relearn it again and go through that all over again.

Again, I ask, encourage and recommend not getting rid of it, just because you heard that tidbit of information and give it a try. Your feedback, along with others, will help shape it's use in the long run. Remember, I want it to be useful, but not so powerful it is a single handed skill that can lock someone down, but I do want it to be something that can hep sway the outcome of combat in the end.

Thanks for listening to everyone's comments, guess we will have to try it out in GA. I'd really love a return to more tactical play and less bashing either aoe's or heals.

So it seems whenever a class gets a bit of 'power' people immediately claim they are OP. But if an arti was on your team, would you tell them not to use their summon? I guess if you talk loud enough your voice gets heard. No one says anything about a cleric's bulkiness and how much they can tank, because, oh you play a cleric. as for nerfing summons on an already squishy class? lol. You say this is a cd discussion thread on the problems present, but I just read complaints on whatever kills your class, i.e. clerics. In case you haven't noticed, good clerics can tank 5+ classes but I mean, that's not really a problem right?

The skill only cost 1 SP.  And Leo said he will adjust it if need be.  He is only starting at 5%.  If it seems to be not enough, then he will increase it after we try it and get back to him about it.  Don't give up!! The best part about Rose lately is that the Devs are listening to the community and looking for some help  and suggestions.  And look, we got to page 5 of a forum thread and it did not turn into a trash talking, flame wars!! Yay for us.

Btw if you read my posts and a lot of other ones we have talked about Clerics and issues with them, and other classes and issues with them.  Leo said the Judge summons is not the way it is supposed to be, so he will correct it, not nerf it.

Edited by Bendersmom, 06 January 2014 - 05:44 PM.

I appreciate the feedback to discussions like this Leonis, but if that is an over balance to Manabrake. I can tell you off the bat that 5% is practically nothing especially if the cooldown is increased. Will charm influence it anymore or will it be a set 5%?

Thanks for listening to everyone's comments, guess we will have to try it out in GA. I'd really love a return to more tactical play and less bashing either aoe's or heals.

It's certainly a goal of mine to help it become more tactical, but in the end, there will always be a special something about just going crazy and rushing head in and seeing how much destruction you can leave in your path.

 

So it seems whenever a class gets a bit of 'power' people immediately claim they are OP. But if an arti was on your team, would you tell them not to use their summon? I guess if you talk loud enough your voice gets heard. No one says anything about a cleric's bulkiness and how much they can tank, because, oh you play a cleric. as for nerfing summons on an already squishy class? lol. You say this is a cd discussion thread on the problems present, but I just read complaints on whatever kills your class, i.e. clerics. In case you haven't noticed, good clerics can tank 5+ classes but I mean, that's not really a problem right?

I listen to what the community has to say and look in to the actuality of things. The Judgement Knight had a couple things off about it, when comparing it against the other summons, which probably gave it an advantage over most. The decision to make all summons be treated as PvP targets was done on the broader scope that none of them were and being that they are an extension of the player, I felt they should be treated as them. This of course will certainly adjust strengths in how they are used and we'll go over it as it plays out again. It isn't about the loudest voices I hear, it is also what they're saying that interests me behind what I turn my attention to.

To anyone who just straight up says "Champions are OP" without a reason, generally get ignored. If enough people say it, I may take a look in to looking for reasons why.

A "good Cleric" tanking 5+ people doesn't tell me much about the Cleric.They have the potential to be a pretty good tank, but when you make that kind of build, they are not useful for much else in the roles of support or combat. They just stand there and take it, which is actually one design aspect they were given with the passives that boost defense and block amount/chances. Having to invest in to those skills can mean potentially less supportive or offensive skills and entirely their choice to take. On top of that, I have no idea who's attacking them, their build or what strategies they're using. If they're just straight attacking melee, I could reasonably see them being able to actively withstand it, if they're that good enough to know their class and build in what they can do in those situations.

I do see people talk about Clerics and no, I don't play one solely to favor them either. I play all the classes so I can keep a good feel for not only how they play, but how we want them to play. Some classes are still short of that full desire, which is still being worked on, but I also have the community to turn to with their views and expectations which would make playing them fun.

So what is it you're so upset with pochijr? I don't generally recall specifics anyone says, than I keep mental notes over what is being said. So I apologize if I haven't directly mentioned anything you may have made a comment or given feedback on. The intention of my post was to go over more of the major factors I've recognized throughout the thread. If I went over every detail, I would spend more time here than actually doing something about it.

I appreciate the feedback to discussions like this Leonis, but if that is an over balance to Manabrake. I can tell you off the bat that 5% is practically nothing especially if the cooldown is increased. Will charm influence it anymore or will it be a set 5%?

Charm won't affect the percentage value, to allow it to do so would make it scary powerful and break the consistency of how the value and percentage system generally works. (Attack Speed aside)

This is just a starting point, yes it does cripple the experience of its use, but like I pointed out, 5% (minus the value) would mean 20 casts would drain a player dry.

Draconis Peaks : 5 on 5

• if everyone picked one and targeted, that's 25% of someone's MP gone, every 7.5 seconds
• Total drain in 30 seconds if it went that long and assuming they don't do anything about it.

Crystal Defenders : 10 on 10

• If everyone picked one and targeted, that's 50% of someone's MP gone, every 7.5 seconds.
• Total drain in 15 seconds if it went that long and assuming they don't do anything about it.

Akram Arena : 15 on 15

• If everyone picked one and targeted, that's 75% of someone's MP gone, every 7.5 seconds.
• Total drain in 15 seconds (and just a couple casts after the cooldown ends) if it went that long and assuming they don't do anything about it.

Looking at that on paper, yeah doesn't look that impressive. In practice, it might actually not be either, but how things are currently, I want to start on the side of caution so more play can be enjoyed, rather than feeling like you're constantly crippled. I want Mana Break to have a place where you want to consider using it, not as a skill that's necessary to have.

how many is enough?, what if people disagrees.

It's certainly a goal of mine to help it become more tactical, but in the end, there will always be a special something about just going crazy and rushing head in and seeing how much destruction you can leave in your path.

 

 

I listen to what the community has to say and look in to the actuality of things. The Judgement Knight had a couple things off about it, when comparing it against the other summons, which probably gave it an advantage over most. The decision to make all summons be treated as PvP targets was done on the broader scope that none of them were and being that they are an extension of the player, I felt they should be treated as them. This of course will certainly adjust strengths in how they are used and we'll go over it as it plays out again. It isn't about the loudest voices I hear, it is also what they're saying that interests me behind what I turn my attention to.

 

To anyone who just straight up says "Champions are OP" without a reason, generally get ignored. If enough people say it, I may take a look in to looking for reasons why.

 

Think about it for a minute though. If your team was choreographed so well to have everyone manabrake a single player to drain their mp, why wouldn't you just all attack that player and kill them instead? Even in Akram Arena a full team using Manabrake on a single target doesn't even drop their mp to zero. Think about it. Remember you said it yourself that mp isn't such a big factor because it can easily be replenished by a single potion. It needs to be stronger than 5% with that cooldown to be worth anything.

I think it is a better idea to keep it non charm based because it gives a big advantage to the side with more (support) clerics as they get the most practical benefit out of it.

I would try 10% mp as a start atleast.

Edited by Phish, 06 January 2014 - 06:11 PM.