CD Changes discussion

how many is enough?, what if people disagrees.

Doubt there's a certain amount of people necessary. Depends more on wether the feedback was given correctly (not just rantings of a madman), and by how much it is backed up by the community.

It's certainly a goal of mine to help it become more tactical, but in the end, there will always be a special something about just going crazy and rushing head in and seeing how much destruction you can leave in your path.

I'd like to see the proposals section of the forums used more as a medium for feedback and discussion.  There are some good ideas in there that often go unnoticed.

These mana break thing are just another reason to push clerics into using 30CHA 8MP recovery stat, everything else are just obsolete.

Any response regards to putting back 2 clerics limit to crystal defender? It is the primary reason why wars are so unbalanced currently.

Unique purify was a bad change, it is just another "I win" button.

sorry, pochijr is me. idk how i signed into that acct. I play arti, and yeah I'm fine with fixing the pvm attributes into pvp. makes it fair, right? I just feel like artis were already squishy and were only utilizing their skills. oh well. and champs being OP? yeah. I don't think it's normal for them to hit 7k on berserk and how easy it is for them to farm points. but since that's getting changed, I won't say more.

clerics are the most powerful class on rose- high def, block rate, aoe sleep, purify, party heals. just because we are reliant on them for cds does not mean they should be that bulky. the numbers of clerics isnt the problem. it is that they are near impossible to kill sometimes.

try playing the only cleric on the group, even i can't tank them all now~ before the skill update i could ~but now i doubt it.

sorry, pochijr is me. idk how i signed into that acct. I play arti, and yeah I'm fine with fixing the pvm attributes into pvp. makes it fair, right? I just feel like artis were already squishy and were only utilizing their skills. oh well. and champs being OP? yeah. I don't think it's normal for them to hit 7k on berserk and how easy it is for them to farm points. but since that's getting changed, I won't say more.

clerics are the most powerful class on rose- high def, block rate, aoe sleep, purify, party heals. just because we are reliant on them for cds does not mean they should be that bulky. the numbers of clerics isnt the problem. it is that they are near impossible to kill sometimes.

Its cerntainly true that clerics are quite tanky, I have no problem with loosing some tankyness or adjusting them in some way. Don't forget however that as clerics die faster people will die faster. You will get a ton of people here saying they die way to fast because the cleric isnt healing them. A few good people can take a cleric down with proper use of mute and stuns( and it has happened to me), but alot of people just rush in and expect everything to die in their path because they geared their characters to kill fast and have high AP, when this doesnt work they feel something is wrong. Those that use tactics kill us fast, or disable us by use of mutes and stuns.

The amount of clerics is a problem because many of those clerics can't play at all. They just stand there healing the xtal and using party heal, insisting to stand in the center of the xtal every single time, even if its a bad idea. I'd rather have another attacker instead of such a cleric. I personally have given up alot of charm and flames and mana shield so I can tank more in CD, you wont get superbuffs from me, but I'll be there to heal you when things get bad. The aoe sleep has been talked about by us alot and I wouldnt mind loosing it, but I'm not going to censor myself on skills in CD until such changes are made.

Mana break was getting out of control, it costs 1 point, has more usefullness then most classes skills, and everyone has it right now ( I do not have it because I dont have the point to spare, enough hard choices had to be made). It became THE skill to spam, and wars turned into: whichever side manabreaks the opposing sides clerics the most wins (as with no mp comes no heals). Making manabreak -10% mp sounds reasonble ^^, lets try it all out in GA.

I don't believe that good suggestions get lost or missed upon, I believe they're ignored on purpose. Like the buff factor.
Right now, (No matter how many clerics will hate me for it I'll keep going on about it), the whole buffing system is broken. Thing like that, aren't looked into. I honestly wonder how everyone can have a good playtime when there's one side without a cleric every other game.
 

Back when I enjoyed "Game arena" for real, when it wasn't game arena but at least playable for everyone, was back when buffpots were better than buffs. Clerics weren't worthless at all and buffing isn't a big part of the game play as the clerics state that they'll be useless without buffs.

I know I pm'd Leonis about this and didn't get the response I wished for but I'm honestly questioning what the point with buffs is if everyone gets the stats boosted the same (depending of cha ofc), whilst one side - a lot of the times, doesn't even have a cleric.

I get if you spoke about clerics enough and their bulkyness, yes they're bulky but I'll simply give up on the whole part and focus buffs only. Because for some reason, people seem to think that it's super fun to stand still on one spot and play =') ...

What's the reason for buffs right now?
Why isn't the focus on self-buffs  to make classes stick out and why don't the buffs count as a bonus instead of a must?
How is it not game breaking to have strong cleric buffs in game when the side without a cleric is defeated once they see that the other team has a cleric?

Honestly try fighting the team, it's not about their heals.. sure that's a minor advantage, but the fact that the buffs are so completely overpowered right now. And it sucks how a game with so much potential is ignoring this fact.

I disagree with some of that there Digital. Heals are an important part, if you almost kill someone and the cleric heals you the fight starts fresh for the person healed. The person who wasnt healed will have to start all over killing this person while tanking hiim. This is quite the advantage... We talked about limiting the amount of clerics on 1 side before, but this will not be done. Its not my call, its Leonis' remark. He says they want to find solutions in the pvp system itself so having a team with 4 clerics vs 1 or 2 will have a disadvantage because of....... ( this is were Leonis drew the developement curtain.... :S).

Buffpots as strong as cleric buffs or a bit more? Fine by me, really. Like I said, I dont have high charm buffs, so my buffs are only slighty better then using a battle buffpot.

Selfbuffs..... Yes, I would like to see some selfbuffs return, a 20sec duallayer is not my idea, a few second offensive focus? Also not my idea, I loved that every class had their own little buff, or couple of buffs, that was superior to most cleric buffs, it created uniqueness, but this has been abandoned for short burts buffs. There is but a few strong selfbuffs, like the dealer accuracy, the soldier hp and def buff ( who at lvl 5 get 15% + a static number based on your charm).

The buffs arent overpowered, the most AP hits are coming from Champ on enraged beserk or simply: Mages. Also katars with high crit builds going on no crit classes. How can you call heals a small deal? I really don't get this logic, without heals many classes die, GA will become some lame 1vs1 TG fight equivalent only with 15-20 people doing it at the same time.

The game of cd is so heavily dependent on having a cleric on your team, that when there is none, or even 1 against 4 it is pretty much game over. I don't agree that a game arena that is made up of a team should rely so much on one class. 

When we played uw, you didn't need a cleric running around healing you. Make buffpots on the same level as buffs, food usable in the game arena. Clerics should be a point of value on your team like any other member, not a necessity.

I worded it in a way where I was pointing out that I only want to speak about the buff part right now.

Sure, and I responded about the buffs, but you don't get to deceide what people talk about.

I didn't say that, I was more pointing out that I was only bringing up the buff point, thats why I didn't state my opinion on the heals. Not the fact that you aren't allowed to say what you want, you made it sound like I was saying that heals were worthless, which they absolutely aren't lol. No cat fights here logi.

 

Honestly try fighting the team, it's not about their heals.. sure that's a minor advantage, but the fact that the buffs are so completely overpowered right now.

This is were you pointed out that they are a minor advantage, they are not. I told you that I dont have super bufs, but me being there, healing, purifying is what helps, not those buffs/ I dont understand why you think these buffs are OVERpowered, please explain this when you stated that they are all the same, depending on charm, which is a contradiction in itself.

I didn't say that, I was more pointing out that I was only bringing up the buff point, thats why I didn't state my opinion on the heals. Not the fact that you aren't allowed to say what you want, you made it sound like I was saying that heals were worthless, which they absolutely aren't lol. No cat fights here logi.

I'm not picking a fight with you digital, you said - I'm not talking about the rest I said it in such a way that I wanted to talk about buffs- Great, but you are simply ignoring points which I brought up and continueing about buffs without giving it any content. Why are these buffs soooo strong? Care to give a few examples? When people die im often the person that rebuffs them with my low charm buffs, but they still appreciate it because they can continue fighting,  other clerics revive  them then ignore them. Selfbuffs might need some looking into, cleric buffs arent overpowered, and as others stated the current tactics of hugging the xtal arent helping the situation either.

I'm talking about the situation where the buffs are an advantage when a team doesn't have any buffs at all. Tell me, do you think it's a fair game when a team got "low cha buffs" and the other team got no buffs at all?

I didn't mean for it to sound like the heals aren't a nice benefit, they are, surely. But that wasn't my point. A game should never rely that much on one class to make gameplay fun. When you play in a way where both teams have clerics - sure it works. When you play in a way where no one got a cleric - works as well. You just missed what I meant, I'm not talking about a slight advantage in one cleric having higher CHA than the other...

The issue with buffs is that you can't fight a team with them when you don't have them. Even after dieing on the battlefield and being revived, sure you might be able to get a skill or two off but you are a sitting duck and easy prey until you receive buffs.

Edited by Phish, 07 January 2014 - 12:05 PM.

Reset time! Let's cool down a bit. I've been enjoying everyone discuss their opinions, so here's some of mine.

Buffs

Are still on the stronger side from what was hoped for. It was honestly hoped that with the Charm set at the strength of influence it was, would allow for players to not need to invest so heavily in to it to make builds that were a bit less specialized and a bit more comprehensive. So was hoped. But the min-maxer build lives on and lives strong. The consideration of reducing the influential power of Charm is under consideration. Currently it provides 3x the influence over the primary stat of your class, which reducing it to 2.5x or at most 2x influence, is being considered to pull back on the impact buffs still have.

They were desired to be helpers and enhancements, to which they are still being considered a prime necessity that apparently aren't able to be overcome through strategic choices of game play on most playing fields. Converting over several of the personal class buffs, so that they can overlap with buffs is one of the paths we've been reviewing and so far it has a promising look. However, if we were to make them all like that, they would all need to be significantly drawn back as buffs would become so focalized, it would once again become the dominating force of what wins a match.

Healing

Currently has zero counter to it. I see this a bit as a problem, because not only does it have no counter, there is only one class that can sufficiently provide it. Solutions to this are:

1) Create a counter status, where:

a) you inflict a status on the Cleric that reduces their ability to heal

you inflict a status on a target that reduces the effectiveness of how much they can be healed.

2) You give healing and support abilities to another class, as a tree choice.

Plans have been already spoken about updating the Artisan in to having access to a supportive role by use of inventions and gadgets.

Raiders

I don't see much bad about their abilities currently, but I feel like they could add some more weight to the experience of team combat and influence the outcome of matches. We're working on some new stat types that will do that, by taking a bit from what was stated above regarding healing counters.

Scouts

The crossbow scout has been noted to be strong, but more notably, the bow scout has been given some underwhelming reviews. There were several points of skills that weren't able to be created at the time of the skill update, which are becoming a possibility now. Though a bit complicated on our end, the end result would be a weighted change in not only how you may play a bow scout, but restore some balance behind their intended utility and influential power to team warfare.

Game Arena

The method of generating points is an issue, as I've stated before. Which we've done some reviews over many, many, many.... many.... many.... many, matches. So we could have a sense of how the points are generated and distributed. There are some extreme cases, but on the average, we got a very good look at how the outcome ends up. With that in mind, there are some changes we'll be pushing out that will shift a bit of the point generation to be more about the accomplishments in each match, rather than strictly dealing damage, healing and even killing one another. We will of course still keep those factors in to allow honor generation, however they currently are a much larger factor in the total points given, than that of just trying to win. So, the term honor farming, was what caused this change, as it is certainly not our intention to make these matches a place to 'honor farm'. We instead want the goal to be to gain honor by winning and also be rewarded well for your participation.

Class Balancing

We will always be eternally balancing classes as we continue to introduce new features and possibilities to game play. But we don't want to constantly be adjusting from week to week, or even month to month. That being said, only major issues of balance will be considered to be adjusted between those periods of times we will be reviewing game play for balancing.

We're approaching one of those time periods where game play has been able to adjust and become adjusted to, so we can look to identify outpoints in what was intended. Along with some of the features we wanted to be launched along with the skill update, it is a perfect opportunity for us to look in to addressing some of these concerns between various classes and what they're capable of and what we'd like to see them be. Yes, this means there will be changes in the future, but we'll do our best to keep them limited and minor, but even the smallest change can shift the balance of power notably. We can only hope that through these changes there will be less and less needed, but there will always be new features and mechanics being added, which will always put a potential need to shift game play to compensate or accommodate.

Please don't change buffs for pvm unless you are willing to nerf all monster stats across the board

Gutting charm is pretty harsh for a lot of clerics.  Many have spent a lot of money investing in charm.  I can't begin to tell you how much I've spent because getting my cleric to high charm to indirectly help all of my characters in pvm. 

Edited by DoubleRose, 07 January 2014 - 12:55 PM.

 

Healing

Currently has zero counter to it. I see this a bit as a problem, because not only does it have no counter, there is only one class that can sufficiently provide it. Solutions to this are:

 

1) Create a counter status, where:

a) you inflict a status on the Cleric that reduces their ability to heal

you inflict a status on a target that reduces the effectiveness of how much they can be healed.

 

2) You give healing and support abilities to another class, as a tree choice.

Plans have been already spoken about updating the Artisan in to having access to a supportive role by use of inventions and gadgets.

 

Raiders

Leonis, I have to disagree with this. The Mute skill is a highly effective counter, along with Mana Brake. You also had stuns, and sleeps which counter a cleric's ability to heal.

Edited by pdfisher, 07 January 2014 - 01:00 PM.

Please don't change buffs for pvm unless you are willing to nerf all monster stats across the board

 

Gutting charm is pretty harsh for a lot of clerics.  Many have spent a lot of money investing in charm.  I can't begin to tell you how much I've spent because getting my cleric to high charm to indirectly help all of my characters in pvm. 

Wow, you just jumped straight to the extremes didn't you?

Don't change buffs unless I nerf all the monsters?

Gutting charm? Where are you getting this from?? I even expressed the reduction rate, it is not gutting anything.

Don't jump to the extreme please.
 

Leonis, I have to disagree with this. The Mute skill is a highly effective counter, along with Mana Brake. You also had stuns, and sleeps which counter a cleric's ability to heal.

Mute is a counter to all spell casting, just like draining the MP of a target prevents skill use, sleep prevents any action until hit, or stun which just makes you a lump for a brief moment. I'm speaking more of a direct counter to only healing. When you consider that it can only affect such a small aspect of a greater whole, it allows for us to make those counters to be fairly constant and useful, since it only applies to one aspect.

For example:

• An 8 second mute every 30 seconds, stops all casting, including healing. Pretty powerful.
  Vs
• A 20% reduction to how much you are healed by, for 30 seconds, you can keep applied on a target for as long as you fight them. Pretty powerful, but only applies to if they are healed. It reduces their ability to be supported as well, and can shift balance in that regard for the longevity of combat, not just the immediate outcome.

For such an effect, if even a Raider dies, the effect would last and the rest of their team could make use of it.

Look, there are a number of things that I'm considering right now which would put some interesting spins on combat from various classes. Some classes have enough mechanics that make them interesting, powerful and desired, while others do not. Rather than taking away from them, I'm trying to add to the ones that lack, but I don't want to make them compete with one another directly pound for pound. I want each one to have their own unique way of lending their talents to help shift the outcome of the overall fight, so they not only can feel useful, but feel like they made a difference.

I don't understand how you can say cleric buffs aren't overpowered when the game changer is indeed reliant upon buffs. +33 buffs vs +60 buffs? Who has the advantage there? Is it even possible to fight back when you have no buffs against a team with buffs? No. If that isn't the definition of having power over others I don't know what is.

I don't understand how you can say cleric buffs aren't overpowered when the game changer is indeed reliant upon buffs. +33 buffs vs +60 buffs? Who has the advantage there? Is it even possible to fight back when you have no buffs against a team with buffs? No. If that isn't the definition of having power over others I don't know what is.

Not entirely sure who you're talking to.  Because no where did I say that buffs aren't overpowered.

That was in reply to Logi, my bad. I was too lazy to quote.

That was in reply to Logi, my bad. I was too lazy to quote.

xD silly nooooodles

 

For example:

• An 8 second mute every 30 seconds, stops all casting, including healing. Pretty powerful.
  Vs
• A 20% reduction to how much you are healed by, for 30 seconds, you can keep applied on a target for as long as you fight them. Pretty powerful, but only applies to if they are healed. It reduces their ability to be supported as well, and can shift balance in that regard for the longevity of combat, not just the immediate outcome.

For such an effect, if even a Raider dies, the effect would last and the rest of their team could make use of it.

 

Look, there are a number of things that I'm considering right now which would put some interesting spins on combat from various classes. Some classes have enough mechanics that make them interesting, powerful and desired, while others do not. Rather than taking away from them, I'm trying to add to the ones that lack, but I don't want to make them compete with one another directly pound for pound. I want each one to have their own unique way of lending their talents to help shift the outcome of the overall fight, so they not only can feel useful, but feel like they made a difference.

This isn't bad, I like it. It adds some tactical depth  and shouldn't be overpowering as long as not every class has a skill like this. I think it is better to have the heal suppress caste on the target rather than the weakening the cleric's healing overall.

As far as buffs go I don't think a uniform nerf to charm or buffs in general is an answer. If buffs are slightly weaker people still are going to fight with buffs and a buffless character vs a full buffed one will still be at a large disadvantage. Changing buffs would a major overhaul and will effect all aspects of Rose. It's a dangerous issue to tackle because it would change gameplay, also monster's power would need adjusting as well. 

Wow, you just jumped straight to the extremes didn't you?

 

Don't change buffs unless I nerf all the monsters?

 

Gutting charm? Where are you getting this from?? I even expressed the reduction rate, it is not gutting anything.

 

Don't jump to the extreme please.

Then make the base numbers of the buffs higher and weaken their scaling so that the gap between buffer clerics and more int based clerics isn't high.  I have no idea what those numbers would be.

Pvm is tough enough as it is, I think it would be thrown out of balance if everyone was made weaker.