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#1 Bendersmom

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 07:15 AM

I wanted to discuss some changes to CD in one post if we can.  There are a lot of complaints, proposed changes, etc but they are spread all over the forums.  Please try to refrain from trolling, fighting, trash talking, making fun of people, etc.  If you have a complaint, post a suggestion for change.  The more ideas with good reasoning we can come up with the more helpful it is to the Devs.

 

1. Mana Break skill - with everyone being able to get this skill it is mostly annoying as hell.  At least after you die in Cd and are respawned, you should be able to regen your mp as well as your HP.  I always thought that you did, but I have not yet any time I died.  So I die because of no MP, and on respawn still no regen.  I don't know how I feel about the skill, and I think it is being abused from the original concept, but if keeping it let us regen MP on death.

 

2. I think clerics should not get points for healing the crystal.  I think we should be able to heal it, but not get points for it.  If we are still getting such high points, then healing points overall should be adjusted.  But first try no points for healing the crystal.

 

3. I think once clerics get no points for healing the crystal we might see less clerics playing.  But if not then the number of FS clerics allowed in should be adjusted again. 5 or 6 clerics per side make for boring wars where the crystal never goes down and very few people die.  And if you are 1 cleric vs 4 clerics it is a very miserable game.  The wars are not wars anymore. 

 

4. AOE stuns, sleeps, mutes - In my opinion there are way too many of these between the classes.  I can see a class having one or two to help get away from an enemy, etc.  But some classes have too many of them and they are strong.

 

5. To help get Akram Arena going with a lot of people have a scheduled time for it to go, maybe 4 times a day.  And increase the numbers to 15/side with no maximum limit.  Make it so people can't sign up for any other pvp games except for AA for maybe 15 min before it goes.  AA is fun with a lot of people and I think if we get them going more people will like them.


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#2 jerremy

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 07:30 AM

Don't forget this one:

 

6. Clutching under the crystal should not be possible. Right now it's just silly to see defenders run towards the crystal instantly and hide in there, even if the enemy team is completely ranged people will still refuse to come out, afraid that they will get focused and die. This mentality makes wars far too static and boring.


Edited by jerremy, 28 December 2013 - 08:31 AM.

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#3 Bendersmom

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 07:38 AM

Don't forget this one:

 

6. Clutching under the crystal should not possible. Right now it's just silly to see defenders run towards the crystal instantly and hide in there, even if the enemy team is completely ranged people will still refuse to come out, afraid that they will get focused and die. This mentality makes wars far too static and boring.

 I agree on this one to a point.  With all of the AOEs, stuns, mutes and such hiding in mass at the crystal is not the best strategy.  But on the other hand, with people continually draining the cleric mana the most economical place to be to have heals actually support the team is in the crystal where the team is.  With low MP it is hard to individually run around healing everyone and buffing and purifying.  Not so bad when more than one cleric, but with only one or two vs 4-5 I need to be able to get to my team.  

 

Maybe the diameter around the crystal should be a bit larger, but too much and it will limit the area that we can support the whole team.  Then again, it would make clerics actually have to focus on the team and not just spam healing, which would reduce healing points too.  


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#4 Logi

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 08:58 AM

Together with champions getting a different attitude this should help, many of them just want to aoe for points, people need to protect their clerics and help them. Right now its smart to just make your cleric a tanker so you can withstand the pounding that is to come....

 

Like DP unique rewards ( dragons) making participation in actually winning a CD good for points would help. Right now both sides can have 200-360 point results without ever going past the first crystal. The endless cycle of aoe heal aoe heal causes this. Whichever cleric gets beaten first, by either getting their mana drained or muted and is unable to withstand the rest, will die. This gives a good advantage to the other side, which often can then steamroll the rest of the team.

 

Their have been some nice wars were the opposing side regrouped and made an effective stand at the second cystal, kudo's to them. But alot of it also lies in who's stun is succesfully applied, or how many aoe sleep clouds are succesfully cast by either side. Not so much any suggestions here, but this is what I notice in wars. There are still some really nice wars in CD, but this happens when both sides are equal and have 2-3 clerics MAX.


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#5 Cristal

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 09:11 AM

Daily Quest :- Inflicted Wounds - Obtain 10 badges of Wounding. 

 

It is very difficult for a cleric to complete this daily quest.

Suggested [for cleric only] instead of wounding go for healing.  


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#6 jerremy

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 09:17 AM

Daily Quest :- Inflicted Wounds - Obtain 10 badges of Wounding. 

 

It is very difficult for a cleric to complete this daily quest.

Suggested [for cleric only] instead of wounding go for healing.  

There already is a quest for that, just pick the second option instead of the first.


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#7 Phish

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 10:57 AM

I agree with Clerics not being able to gain points through healing the crystal. Of all classes in the game Clerics accrue points the easiest and Crystal Defenders, and are also the most often played which leads to another problem.

 

Rose Online is heavily based upon buffs. Clerics will always be important but they are incredibly mandatory for any type of Game Arena (pvp) game. When neither side has a cleric, it's slow but fine (and pretty balanced). Once one side starts stacking Clerics is where things get out of hand. This is amplified even further when one side does not have a Cleric while the other does have one. 

 

For one, killine a Cleric alone with full buffs is extremely difficult and only a couple classes can even attempt to try it against a competent Cleric. Killing a Cleric on self buffs is impossible; they outheal the damage they'll take by far. Now how about a full team of fully buffed classes and a cleric vs a full team of self buffed classes with no Cleric? It's Game Over, and this a big problem seen in Draconis Peaks now. With no Cleric requirement and only a 5v5 war many a time will there be battles where one side is Clericless while the other has one. 

 

I personally still feel Clerics are too bulky, and their survivability is part of what makes wars with many clerics a painful experience. However.... instead of touching their stats I think it's safer to put a max requirement to the number of clerics per side, and balance them between sides like it was in the past. I don't know why this was changed from before.

 

 

 

Regarding Mana brake, I do feel the skill is overwhelming now, but I don't want to make it useless either. One of the problems with this skill now is the fact that Clerics (yeah here I go again) make the best use out of it with their inherently  high charm. This leads to another problem as once again, the team with more Clerics can disabled the team with less clerics by depleting their mp. Perhaps decreasing the cooldown wasn't a good idea. I feel maybe the skill should be stronger but have a long cooldown. Right now it depletes 230 mp (before charm/main stat) and has a 3.5 second cooldown. Maybe change it to 300 mp with a 15 second cooldown.

 

 

As far as Draconis Peaks goes, 5v5 feels way too little. People are unorganized plus with less people you run into the cleric/no cleric problem which is probably worse than the game not starting at all.

 

 

Lastly I've been saying it for awhile, but Crystal Defenders, Akram Arena and Draconis Peaks constantly compete with eachother and Crystal Defenders wins the vast majority of the time. Give the games their respective chance to be played without interfering with the activity of the others. Separate games by day, or have Akram Arena occur at scheduled times where you cannot join the other games. 


Edited by Phish, 28 December 2013 - 11:01 AM.

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#8 Logi

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 11:46 AM

1  and balance them between sides like it was in the past. I don't know why this was changed from before.

 

2 Regarding Mana brake

 

3 Lastly I've been saying it for awhile, but Crystal Defenders, Akram Arena and Draconis Peaks constantly compete with eachother and Crystal Defenders wins the vast majority of the time. Give the games their respective chance to be played without interfering with the activity of the others. Separate games by day, or have Akram Arena occur at scheduled times where you cannot join the other games. 

 

1 Battle clerics, they dont help with heals, or barely and have no buffs or just a few mostly.

 

2 -1270 on a int tank cleric -1800 on a max charm cleric, depending on survival or charm gear this can be more or less, thats alot of mana for most classes.

 

3 Yes, thought putting it on a timer ( both) makes for less chance of a war starting on dif times. The idea of making AA something on a timer ( say 4 times a day) would help, it requires more people for one and itll create a habit for people to say, lets log on and do a AA. Unique rewards for AA as DP has will also help get these started.

 

Rest of  your post: yes I agree ^^


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#9 DoubleRose

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 02:21 PM

status

aoe sleeps take too many players out of the action for too long

losing control of your character for 5 seconds is not fun, and there is no counter play to being put to sleep.  you are helpless unless the enemy choose to attack you.  an enemy can click on you, hit their sleep spell, and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

 

clerics

I dont like setting up a system that screws over battle clerics.  if a team is forced to have a limited number of clerics, it puts your team at a big disadvantage to trade one of the healer/buffer slots for a battle cleric because a scout or bourg could fill the same role as a battle cleric. if a bunch of battle clerics happened to que at the same time, your team might have no real clerics. this is an mmo so support clerics are the best class and their only tradeoff is that they need allies. if you had to pick only one class to make up your team, who in the right mind wouldn't pick clerics?  who else can buff allies, heal the crystal, and has massive utility? there are different offensive classes with unique skills that are needed to take out enemies so you can go for the objective, but having clerics is the dominant strategy.

 

given these things, if a cleric limitation is imposed, battle clerics need some sort of special label in the que if they have different skills from normal clerics- ex. having no buff skills removes the cleric label.

 

timers

a goal in business is to make their product a daily routine.  your local coffee shop wants you to stop by on your way to work everyday.  having CD at set times might be a good equivalent. right now there is an energy system which is a different time of game design because it is a restriction in game play. i find energy inferior to timers because when I log in with full energy I don't know if I will actually get to play a game, it depends on how many people are qued up.  if a CD is at 6 pm every night I know exactly what I am getting.


Edited by DoubleRose, 28 December 2013 - 02:42 PM.

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#10 Phish

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 02:49 PM

Yes battle clerics shouldn't fall into the 'cleric' category. It was like this before, a cleric was only considered a cleric if they had atleast 1 heal and 1 buff. 


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#11 ChampPower

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 04:13 PM

Being a full support cleric, I have to say, "I do not like your no-healing crystal proposal." Being a cleric is pain. Everybody in the team is depending on the cleric. I have to constantly heal, buff, purify, and revive everyone in my team. That is not to mention about trying to survive when many fighter teaming up on me as we are usuallys being on their first-to-kill class. I have played other classes as well, and being a cleric is required more effort than any other classes. Our only reward is honor point. If you take away that reward, not only that you will not see many clerics in play, but you may also see no cleric in play. Good luck with war without the full support of cleric. I doubt that war will be any fun.

Edited by ChampPower, 28 December 2013 - 04:16 PM.

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#12 pdfisher

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 04:24 PM

Being a full support cleric, I have to say, "I do not like your no-healing crystal proposal." Being a cleric is pain. Everybody in the team is depending on the cleric. I have to constantly heal, buff, purify, and revive everyone in my team. That is not to mention about trying to survive when many fighter teaming up on me as we are usuallys being on their first-to-kill class. I have played other classes as well, and being a cleric is required more effort than any other classes. Our only reward is honor point. If you take away that reward, not only that you will not see many clerics in play, but you may also see no cleric in play. Good luck with war without the full support of cleric. I doubt that war will be any fun.

 

No one said being a GOOD cleric in CD was easy, cause it isn't. It is the hardest job in the game. Our problem is with the lazy clerics that just go in, run to crystal, and spam heal it, doing nothing else to help the team. Some even force the team to give up the first crystal, (by leaving), so that they can get more points. This is why I and many others feel it is time to stop awarding points for healing a crystal. I have seen these lazy clerics spam healing a perfectly full crystal. I honestly think some may be on a bot. Will we see a reduction in the number of clerics playing? You can count on it, cause the ones that are playing the lazy clerics, won't be able to get the easy points anymore.


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#13 Phish

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 04:25 PM

 

Everybody in the team is depending on the cleric. 

 

This is the main issue in itself; Clerics and buffs are mandatory in Rose. The reliance on one class in Crystal Defenders/Akram Arena/Draconis Peaks is extremely lopsided. Leonis did mention he wanted to balance this out by making Artisans a semi support class, but until that happens clerics have the pressure of being the lifeline to everyone on the team.

 

Our only reward is honor point. If you take away that reward, not only that you will not see many clerics in play, but you may also see no cleric in play. 

 

How does this apply specifically to Clerics and not everyone else?

 

 

 

 

I just finished a Draconis Peaks War where our side didn't have a support cleric and the others did. No one died on the enemy side, where as everyone on our side died several times and received significantly less points as a whole.


Edited by Phish, 28 December 2013 - 04:26 PM.

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#14 BluePlasma

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 04:27 PM

I also think that the way GA energy works should be reworked, DP is shorter than CD and it still costs 4k GA energy. Also, The 7k for a dungeon is a bit too much too. Speaking of which, was the GA energy regeneration rate changed? It's almost twice slower for me :/


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#15 pdfisher

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 04:32 PM

I wanted to discuss some changes to CD in one post if we can.  There are a lot of complaints, proposed changes, etc but they are spread all over the forums.  Please try to refrain from trolling, fighting, trash talking, making fun of people, etc.  If you have a complaint, post a suggestion for change.  The more ideas with good reasoning we can come up with the more helpful it is to the Devs.

 

 

 

1. Mana Break skill - with everyone being able to get this skill it is mostly annoying as hell.  At least after you die in Cd and are respawned, you should be able to regen your mp as well as your HP.  I always thought that you did, but I have not yet any time I died.  So I die because of no MP, and on respawn still no regen.  I don't know how I feel about the skill, and I think it is being abused from the original concept, but if keeping it let us regen MP on death.

 

I agree with this, and I have also noticed that when I go into one of these games, my mp is down. Is this intentional? When we are respawned, our mp should be regenerated just like our hp.

 

2. I think clerics should not get points for healing the crystal.  I think we should be able to heal it, but not get points for it.  If we are still getting such high points, then healing points overall should be adjusted.  But first try no points for healing the crystal.

 

Agreed, there are too many lazy clerics getting points for doing nothing.

 

3. I think once clerics get no points for healing the crystal we might see less clerics playing.  But if not then the number of FS clerics allowed in should be adjusted again. 5 or 6 clerics per side make for boring wars where the crystal never goes down and very few people die.  And if you are 1 cleric vs 4 clerics it is a very miserable game.  The wars are not wars anymore. 

 

 I believe that the cleric allotment should be reinstated, like it was before. Please let's fix it so both sides have clerics, and not 5 clerics on one side and one or none on the other.

 

4. AOE stuns, sleeps, mutes - In my opinion there are way too many of these between the classes.  I can see a class having one or two to help get away from an enemy, etc.  But some classes have too many of them and they are strong.

 

Maybe it's because I'm a champ, but I really haven't had too much problem with this. However when you add Manabrake into the mix, it just plain gets crazy.

 

5. To help get Akram Arena going with a lot of people have a scheduled time for it to go, maybe 4 times a day.  And increase the numbers to 15/side with no maximum limit.  Make it so people can't sign up for any other pvp games except for AA for maybe 15 min before it goes.  AA is fun with a lot of people and I think if we get them going more people will like them.

 

Either that, or rotate the games so that whatever quests are being offered, will be for the game being offered.

 


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#16 ChampPower

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 04:51 PM

No one said being a GOOD cleric in CD was easy, cause it isn't. It is the hardest job in the game. Our problem is with the lazy clerics that just go in, run to crystal, and spam heal it, doing nothing else to help the team. Some even force the team to give up the first crystal, (by leaving), so that they can get more points. This is why I and many others feel it is time to stop awarding points for healing a crystal. I have seen these lazy clerics spam healing a perfectly full crystal. I honestly think some may be on a bot. Will we see a reduction in the number of clerics playing? You can count on it, cause the ones that are playing the lazy clerics, won't be able to get the easy points anymore.


The lazy individual cleric is an outliner case. Why do you porpoise an proposal that would effect all cleric? I, for example, have many war win with only 50s honor points despite being a cleric. I simply want to have fun and earn points at the same time. So why do I get effect by your proposal, too? Is it fair for me? Being lazy does not limit to the cleric class. I personally see a champion afk until a minute before the end of the game. I also saw people jump ship to win. I also saw people give up because one side is too over power. I also saw people chicken out and group with the strongest possible combination of people before joining war because the fear the uncertainty of war. So? Being in war comes with uncertainty, including the lazy cleric, that is the fun of the war. If you cannot deal with uncertainty and only concern about winning, then your war is not fun for everybody.

Edited by ChampPower, 28 December 2013 - 05:00 PM.

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#17 pdfisher

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 04:56 PM

But the thing is, removal of points for just healing the crystal, shouldn't affect you too much. If you are healing, buffing, purying, ressing, sleeping, muting. You should get points for that. I too have seen all the things you mentioned. We will always have people like that. But why encourage it by making it so easy for a certain class to get points, when they are doing nothing to help their team? These wars are all about teamwork, not the individual. I think this could encourage the teamwork aspect.


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#18 ChampPower

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 05:11 PM

But the thing is, removal of points for just healing the crystal, shouldn't affect you too much. If you are healing, buffing, purying, ressing, sleeping, muting. You should get points for that. I too have seen all the things you mentioned. We will always have people like that. But why encourage it by making it so easy for a certain class to get points, when they are doing nothing to help their team? These wars are all about teamwork, not the individual. I think this could encourage the teamwork aspect.


It will affect me a lot. Being a cleric, most of the time means you cannot deal a significant damage to the other side. That will also mean you have no point for that manner. You do not get the point for any other thing except healing, including purify, sleeping, rescuing, and buffing. If you do not heal the crystal, even if your side win and everybody on your team have 200 points, your cleric will not have 200 points. At best you will have half of that. I had one war win with just 90 points while most of my team members had 200.
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#19 Bendersmom

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 06:05 PM

Not true at all.  A number of us clerics almost never heal the crystal unless it is almost gone and we are close to the end.  In good wars we receive max points a lot.  It is all based on the war itself.  If it is a slow war, for example my team is way OP compared to the other team, then there are low numbers....For Everyone.  But if it is a good, more or less balanced war and goes the whole time a good cleric healing their team, buffing, purifying, etc. can easily get max points without healing the crystal one time.  

 

Look at the scoreboards after a war.  Clerics are usually in the top 5 with champs (not discussing champ and their OPness here) or bourgs. On occasion a knight or scout show up in the top 10 but it is almost always clerics, champs and bourgs.  And a lot of those clerics do nothing other than heal the crystal and spam party heals.  That should not be rewarded.  Team participation should be.  The devs are going to decrease the amount of points that clerics get for healing in general, they already said that.  I am suggesting to first try giving up getting points for healing the crystal, and not alter the healing points for supporting the team.  See if that makes a difference in the scores.  If clerics are still always in the top 10 then change the amount of points we get for healing the team.  

 

But I agree, if we are working our asses off supporting the team, we should be able to get the points to reflect that.  I have no issues with a good cleric that has kept their team alive in the war getting max or high points.  I don't think anyone would say we do not deserve it as much as the fighters.  But for sitting in the crystal and healing it throughout while team mates are dying around them....they should not be in the top 10.  At least that is my view.

 


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#20 Mystiqueforce

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 06:12 PM

I also saw people chicken out and group with the strongest possible combination of people before joining war because the fear the uncertainty of war. So? Being in war comes with uncertainty, including the lazy cleric, that is the fun of the war. If you cannot deal with uncertainty and only concern about winning, then your war is not fun for everybody.

agreed~

 

 

my unknown cleric was accused by other people as spam healing the crystal and making rude comments about my cleric during GA~ you know who you are. HA! :P


Edited by Mystiqueforce, 28 December 2013 - 06:15 PM.

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#21 Soda

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 11:09 PM

Yes battle clerics shouldn't fall into the 'cleric' category. It was like this before, a cleric was only considered a cleric if they had atleast 1 heal and 1 buff. 

 

THIS!! I cant stand being the only cleric on our team and then they realize im a BC .___. *rage quit for them*


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#22 Phish

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 01:37 PM

The more wars I play with uneven clerics, the more obvious that something has to be changed about it. 

 

Either:

 

A: Removed 90% of buffs in game except for 1-3 self buffs for each class, clerics can have maybe 1 party buff, which involves removing buff potions, boosters and item mall buffs. Also reduce the number and strength of cleric buffs. 

 

B: Balance the number of clerics in wars so that one side can never have more than 1 more cleric than the other side.

 

 

 

Another way to help alleviate the cleric issue would be to allow food within wars. You wouldn't be able to use food as freely as you would in normal maps though, instead you'd have to wait until you are outside of combat much like the (lame) gear restriction. So many times I find myself able to escape death with a sliver of health left,  but I become a sitting duck until I can run around and find the 1 cleric on the team to heal me again. It really puts too much of a demand on clerics and the only problem food caused in these wars was using it in combat to the point where many classes became unkillable alone because of the hp recovery. If run away from battle I see no reason why I can't use food in the map away from enemies. 

Since option A is unrealistic, option B is necessary. 14 people shouldn't have to entirely depend on the 1 cleric in Akram Arena. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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#23 Bendersmom

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 06:24 PM

I think that by not allowing points for healing the crystal the number of clerics will go down in GA.  A lot are just playing for the points and spam crystal or sit in crystal and do party heals.  make the diameter around the crystal a bit bigger so people can't bunch up in it and that should make the healing points lower.  Then re-evaluate and see if clerics are still getting in the top 5 points all of the time.

 

The mana break skill is horrible with all classes having it.  And the good target it the clerics.  My mana goes from full to none in seconds and then no heals/buffs or puries.  And when you die the MP does not fill up like your HP does.  So you run back in with low or no MP, which is a waste because you die.  The clerics can't even support their team.  The last CD there were just 2 clerics on one team vs 5 on the defenders.  Both of us were targeted with mana break, sleeps, mutes most of the game.  I could barely heal myself more or less buff or heal my team mates.  For the whole game.  One skill should not make or break the whole GA game.  

 

The clerics should not have the sleep AOE.  The one sleep skill is fine, but the sleep AOE is ridiculous.  I won't even get it.  It is so overused.  And the cooldown is way to short.  

 

I agree about the cleric heals making or breaking a game.  I think that the Devs enabled people to use buff pots in Game Arenas but no one does.  Instead, they sit down and don't play if they don't have a cleric.  If people would use buff pots they might have a chance against a team with 1 cleric.  But if it is a 0-1 cleric versus 4-5 clerics it is worthless to even play.  

 

Hopefully by reducing/negating the ability to get points for healing the crystal and a larger diameter around the crystal so people can't bunch up as much there will be less clerics playing GA.  But the number of clerics per team has to be regulated somehow.  I still think max of 3 per team is fine (with Battle clerics separate). And they have to be evenly added to teams.  I know that I like playing with clannies but we try to never queue up with more than 2 clerics per group.  But we would be ok too if all clerics had to queue individually.  

 

 

 

 


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#24 Soda

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 12:04 AM

Sleep aoe is fine for me, and just like what you said, its just that the cooldown is waaaaay to short. It just becomes annoying when multiple clerics use it. I say increase the cd to 30-40.

 

Edit: If others didn't notice. PVP Poison Cloud and Sleep Cloud have different cd. 20 for Poison Cloud and 25 for Sleep Cloud.


Edited by Soda, 30 December 2013 - 12:49 AM.

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#25 pdfisher

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 02:49 AM

You are allowed to use buff pots in pvp games. You can buy them from an NPC in Junon. She is on the left side of the field where you get the dailies, up on the stairs.


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