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#51 ValeriusM

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 03:59 PM

Will Gravity please make it impossible to put new traps under the feet of monsters and characters. The point of a "trap" is to be a trap. There is a reason Spring Trap was implemented. If a trap is to do instant damage it should require the use of 2 skills.


And how much time will this take? We wan't to AOE-level like anybody else, not play nifty tricks setting up traps like Mac Guyver.

Well, we (Ranger+AB) tried to level with Cluster Bomb during the Juperos tripple spawn event, but it amounted to not very much, since if you run in a small mob with more monsters respawning constantly, finding a cell where you could actually put down a trap (it has to be one field away from monsters and one field away from other traps) while monsters tend to have positional bugs and not be where they are shown, and then try to mob them over the 1x1 area where the trap actually detonates, you could actually have killed them one by one with control click with less risk. We did 1.1 m/h with control click and 1.3 m/h with Cluster Bombs, but died much more often in the latter case. After the Ragner learned detonate, we only had to mob somewhere closeby to an already prepared trap, but we still had to stand in a secluded position and get only 3-5 monsters at a time. Exp wen't up to 1.4 m/h. Only later on, with Burning Traps, we started to get some Exp that justified actually using them, and came in with around 3 m/h. We never used Cluster Bombs again, since it's too clumsy a slow.

Some players don't realize that traps, even the ones you place under the feet of monsters, are more messy to use than a skill you simply cast somewhere. You need to actually put it somewhere under or closeby to a monster where it will detonate. If your moster happens to be shown at a different position than the server thinks it's really at, you can only manually detonate, which makes things very time consuming. Moreover, mobs (especially in AL) can kick away your traps, and if you can't see where they are because they're lying in the water or beneath other crap, you can't detonate them manually, and you start fratically clicking the ground around you trying to detonate and hoping that you find them before you get wiped. Oh, and don't try to take on ghost property monsters since ranger traps are forced neutral. :)

Compare this to classes with an aoe skill that you cast on the ground: Wherever you wan't your skill, it will be there, you don't need to pay attention to anything, not to mob position, not to positional bugs, not to mob skills pushing traps out of sight, you don't need to find and detonate traps before you can recast. You just cast, things fall over, and if not, you cast again.
Killing with traps, even the ones you put under the monsters feet is more tricky than with a run of the mill AOE skill (*cough* Severe Rainstorm), and it does rather generous damage for it, but DPS for Ranger traps will be nerved in a future patch anway, so it will start to suck soon enough.

By the way, it does seem as if Gravity actually intented aoe killing to be the way of living of 3rd classes. Even though I dislike it, Gravity gave most of the classes pretty efficient aoe skills. Making ranger traps not be able to be placed directly beneath targets would make them infinitely more restricted usage wise than the aoe skills of other classes, since you had to apply a certain tactic and play style, while other classes just walk and cast away in whatever style of playing the situation needs.

As somebody said in a previous post: Consider the Ranger traps to be grenades, if you must, and ask for a renaming, but don't envy rangers a skill that is actually halfway useable while leveling, since most other classe's aoe skills are even easier to use, still. :)

Edited by ValeriusM, 19 January 2011 - 01:36 AM.

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#52 Nombus

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 07:04 PM

While your points about position bugging are valid, the current DPS of traps are massive as they can be put down at a very quick rate. Moreover, the bonus of traps are that you can have a massive amount of AoE dmg set up at any given point without the worry of skill delay. The only drawback to this is that it must be setup prior and mistakes can be deadly. That drawback needs to exist and is the reason why bow attacks should still be a part of lvling (killing off the leftovers).

If this is going to stay in place, there needs to be some kind of cooldown to traps. It should not be possible to put one down as soon as the other detonates (which is instantaneous). The current DPS of traps on monsters and players is simply too high.
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#53 Iseal

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 06:12 AM

Wait, I thought it was only Hunter traps that got the cast time. It's Ranger traps too?
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#54 ValeriusM

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 09:26 AM

Wait, I thought it was only Hunter traps that got the cast time. It's Ranger traps too?


I think it was Clogon or Doddler who wrote that Ranger traps received a 1 sec cast time and 1 sec aftercast delay in KRO, but I can't find the original post, sorry.

Edited by ValeriusM, 19 January 2011 - 09:26 AM.

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#55 Limitless

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 08:01 PM

Ranger traps would suck so hard with cast time
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#56 IronFist

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 08:51 PM

i dont think ranger traps need to be changed, they are fine as they are. i think arrows skills need massive nerfs and maybe critical attacks

when im doing crit damage for a MASSIVE 50 damage on a level 125 SOMETHING is totaly wronge!
and when my auto attacks do more dps then my offensive longass casting skills well why bother ...
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#57 ValeriusM

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 10:44 PM

i think arrows skills need massive nerfs and maybe critical attacks


Wait, what? o_O
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#58 Limitless

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 12:32 AM

Sarcasm
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#59 Pravin

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 01:52 PM

We should probably push to get Aimed bolt and Arrow storm fixed so they atleast do the damage they used to earlier. Fear breeze needs a buff, even a little would be good and will make CTRL click rangers infinitely happy. And while we are at it, just for the sake of getting our money's worth ( HD Oridecons ) we should push for getting the overrefine bonus fixed for bows.
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#60 Pravin

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 01:57 PM

Will Gravity please make it impossible to put new traps under the feet of monsters and characters. The point of a "trap" is to be a trap. There is a reason Spring Trap was implemented. If a trap is to do instant damage it should require the use of 2 skills.


What character do you play ? If you play a ranger ( which I assume you dont ), then you will realize that Firing trap is the ONLY decent ( not even good ) thing we have compared to other classes, and you want to take that away from us ? What sins have we committed to have our class nerfed so bad so thats its utterly useless ? All we want is a class which has equally good skills compared with other classes.
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#61 Limitless

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 02:29 PM

Even if you buff fear breeze it will do almost nothing for ctrl click. The problem is how nerfed bow damage is, doing 200-300 a hit with end game gears and a high refined bow is not gonna go up much even if you double the chance on fear breeze. The primary damage coming from any bow ranger is the warg, which kind of limits all bow rangers to one build.
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#62 Pravin

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 02:50 PM

Well, my usual damage with a +8 poaching elven bow on a neutral target (depending on def) is around 800 and even more if the target is weak to an element. And that is normal damage, not crit. I usually get crits of upto 1.4k easily on elemental monsters. When I had tried fear breeze lvl 5 early on, and when it did proc, it gave me huge damage, around like 4k or so for 5 hits, and an average of 2k for other hits. The only reason I felt it wasnt strong enough is that it didnt proc as often. Even though the final probability listed on the wiki for getting 2 hits is 40%, I wasnt getting it as often even with 192 aspd.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, my base dex is 90, if that matters. Oh and I think you were probably mentioning pvp with regards to damage.I was talking about pvm. Nevermind.

Edited by Pravin, 20 January 2011 - 03:03 PM.

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#63 Clogon

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 08:30 PM

@Nombus:
How are you a level 130 Sorc dying to Firing traps? You should have at least 20k HP already. With Energy Coat which reduces ALL damages including traps, Firing will only be doing 5k DPS on you in WoE. Not to mention that if you use Magnetic Earth they can't do ANYTHING to you. If you are dying to this skill, which is one of the weaker WoE skills, what CAN you survive? Gloomy Clashing? KA? GoH? Cart Cannon? Overbrand? Vanishing Point?

@ValeriusM:
Only Hunter Traps got nerfed on kRO. Ranger traps get small buffs like being able to have 2 Firing traps on the map at once.
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#64 Limitless

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 10:40 PM

@Nombus:
How are you a level 130 Sorc dying to Firing traps? You should have at least 20k HP already. With Energy Coat which reduces ALL damages including traps, Firing will only be doing 5k DPS on you in WoE. Not to mention that if you use Magnetic Earth they can't do ANYTHING to you. If you are dying to this skill, which is one of the weaker WoE skills, what CAN you survive? Gloomy Clashing? KA? GoH? Cart Cannon? Overbrand? Vanishing Point?


None of the above probably.

Fire trap would do like 3-4k in woe to someone with energy coat. Most rangers are not that high level, so averaging 6-7k, it would be reduced to 4-5k in woe. Add on energy coat, and it's not much. Just sayin.

Edited by Limitless, 20 January 2011 - 10:42 PM.

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#65 ValeriusM

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 05:00 AM

@ValeriusM:
Only Hunter Traps got nerfed on kRO. Ranger traps get small buffs like being able to have 2 Firing traps on the map at once.


Thank god I only misunderstood it. :P

Edited by ValeriusM, 25 January 2011 - 05:03 AM.

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#66 LethalJokeChar

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 03:19 PM

What character do you play ? If you play a ranger ( which I assume you dont ), then you will realize that Firing trap is the ONLY decent ( not even good ) thing we have compared to other classes, and you want to take that away from us ? What sins have we committed to have our class nerfed so bad so thats its utterly useless ? All we want is a class which has equally good skills compared with other classes.


Yes. I want to take that chicken-_- tactic away from you. Your "sins"? I'd say it's already been stated. Leveling insanely fast with broken trap mechanics and doing insane DPS in WoE with the traps.. not even giving anyone a chance to get away.

But you see, I don't aim to make the class useless at all. First of all, the bow skills need a serious buff. But secondly, we actually need to incorporate some "skill" into using the traps, rather than just grab a rideword hat + hunter fly cards and mindlessly fwing around pressing the trap button.
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#67 Pravin

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 11:33 AM

Yes. I want to take that chicken-_- tactic away from you. Your "sins"? I'd say it's already been stated. Leveling insanely fast with broken trap mechanics and doing insane DPS in WoE with the traps.. not even giving anyone a chance to get away.

But you see, I don't aim to make the class useless at all. First of all, the bow skills need a serious buff. But secondly, we actually need to incorporate some "skill" into using the traps, rather than just grab a rideword hat + hunter fly cards and mindlessly fwing around pressing the trap button.


That chicken whatever tactic you call, is our only tactic in game since we have ridiculously stupid bow skills, you think I like trapping ? its boring as hell, but thats the only thing which works and people go with that. I dont currently level my ranger since I find it incredibly boring to go around like you said, putting on daggers and RW hat and spamming fire traps. But if they took away the trap mechanics, broken as you call them, then what will happen to this class ?? If at all you want to get those trap mechanics removed, make sure you make them buff the bow skills first. Then ill have no issues with whatever you are saying.
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#68 Akin

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 03:09 PM

That chicken whatever tactic you call, is our only tactic in game since we have ridiculously stupid bow skills, you think I like trapping ? its boring as hell, but thats the only thing which works and people go with that. I dont currently level my ranger since I find it incredibly boring to go around like you said, putting on daggers and RW hat and spamming fire traps. But if they took away the trap mechanics, broken as you call them, then what will happen to this class ?? If at all you want to get those trap mechanics removed, make sure you make them buff the bow skills first. Then ill have no issues with whatever you are saying.



that's what he did say...


But you see, I don't aim to make the class useless at all. First of all, the bow skills need a serious buff. But secondly, we actually need to incorporate some "skill" into using the traps, rather than just grab a rideword hat + hunter fly cards and mindlessly fwing around pressing the trap button.


All they need to do is buff bow skills, and then prevent Ranger traps from being placed below the feet of enemies.
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#69 Pravin

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 04:03 PM

I dont know even if they buff arrow storm in ranger patch, it will only be 1050% your attack. That is not even remotely close to what dps traps can give. If you do like 800 dmg on some monster, arrow storm will be around 8-9k dmg, which just one firing trap gives and can be spammed over and over again. Severe rainstorm is much better than Arrow storm, but sadly rangers are more hated than the performers, so our bow aoe skill has to suck.

In this scenario, I dont see how buffing the bow skills will help, sure if they make arrow storm 2000% atk, then people might think of using it against traps, but even then, in the time it takes you to cast arrow storm, you can spam 3 firing traps. And ranger patch allows you to put 2 firing traps at any given time, and also cluster bomb can be put directly on monsters ( I can see LethalJokeChar faint here :D )


Finally it all comes down to the fact that even after all this, the other 3rd jobs have better ranged skills than rangers. Aimed bolt doesnt do crap, arrow storm sucks balls, fear breeze is useless.

Here is what CLOGON said in his post on the first page :

"Arrow Storm does not compare to ANY of the other ranged AoE skills. Making it (200+50*s.lvl)*b.lvl and increasing its AoE doesn't 11x11 at lvl 10 doesn't make this skill any less useless. Traps will be better than this skill no matter how the Devs increase AoE and Damage unless they make it even stronger than Severe Rainstorm. And that would be entirely stupid. Here is a simple comparison between Ranger skills:

Arrow Storm VS Cluster Bomb
10 Arrows (1~3 weight) vs 1 special alloy trap (0.2 weight)
48 SP vs 20 SP
1050% vs 700% + 6k+ damage from stats
0.5s fixed + 2s variable casting time vs instant cast
3s cooldown vs no cooldown
15 skill points vs 9 skill points to use at max lvl and effectively"


Edited by Pravin, 31 January 2011 - 04:09 PM.

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#70 Josh1821

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 08:52 PM

So can a GM give any details of when we're going to receive the Ranger balance patch? I've just turned Ranger and decided to look up topics on the forums and im immediately regretting becoming a ranger.
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#71 Pravin

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 10:00 AM

Its not too bad Josh. Right now you can easily level up till 150 even without the patch. Grab quad HF dagger, rideword hat, a shield, some armor, and go around spamming fire traps. When you get to a high level, and we get the patch, you can change ur stats and skills. Those neutralizers and reset boxes have become very cheap.

As for getting the ranger patch, I think Heim has said we might get it in about a couple more months.
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#72 AnimeHeart

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 09:41 PM

They need to be a little better in other words improved because shadow chasers deal more damage with traps.For example,they would be more unique in kind of way than other types of classes. Maybe with the ranger patch to put the traps under the monster will influence more persons to have a ranger instead of just shadow chasers around putting traps everywhere they go.
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#73 Lucentos

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 02:04 AM

IMHO ABolt damage should be increased to be almost sure OHKO vs enemies with full reductions on with right Bow, Immobilisation and new Camo from future patch.
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#74 Viri

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 02:18 PM

They need to be a little better in other words improved because shadow chasers deal more damage with traps.For example,they would be more unique in kind of way than other types of classes. Maybe with the ranger patch to put the traps under the monster will influence more persons to have a ranger instead of just shadow chasers around putting traps everywhere they go.


Wrong? Ranger is 100% superior in damage to shadow chaser with traps...
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#75 wotmint

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 06:37 PM

After reading 3 pages discussing traps. I wonder why the are called rangers, wouldnt "trappers" be more appropriate?

edit: sp

Edited by wotmint, 06 May 2011 - 06:38 PM.

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