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#26 Chocs

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 03:49 AM

[...] not to compare to other classes and ask for nerfing lol.

 

Well... the concept of "balance" actually involves looking at the big picture (ie. other classes) and creating a standard that everything falls in line with. This not only requires bringing up certain components up to that standard, but also bringing others down to that standard.

 

My BM game experience is very limited, so I'll respect your sentiment and not meddle in this business. :>


Edited by Chocs, 25 February 2014 - 03:51 AM.

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#27 xLuc

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 07:27 PM

You, my good sir, are actually one of the rare smart people around here.

 

xD You guys should go take some lessons with VidarWolf on the first post on Warriors feedback thread. He/she knows how to notice when his/her OWN class is overpowered compared to others and even ask for a nerf taking into consideration the balance of the game as a whole.

 

Peace.


Edited by xLuc, 25 February 2014 - 07:29 PM.

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#28 Arbalist

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 08:48 PM

So, I did some simple calculations on the Defense stat just to show that life without 1Vit = 2Def isn't as scary as one may think.

 

The Defense formula is found here: http://forums.warppo...fence-formulas/
Defense%=Defense/((Defense*.01)+(Level*.35)+8.7)
*Level is calculated from 1-70 so if you are master level you would use 51-70

 

At Master Level 20 unbuffed, I have 1608 Vit and Osiris set gives 3442 base Def (we also all start with 1 base def I suppose).

 

My Current Stats (1Vit = 2Def)
Human: 6659 Def = 66.73%
Grizzly: 9988.5 Def = 75.05%

Hypothetical Scenario A (1Vit = 1Def)
Human: 5051 Def = 60.34% (-6.39%)

Grizzly: 7576.5 Def = 69.53% (-5.52%)

Hypothetical Scenario B (1Vit = 0Def)

Human: 3443 Def = 50.91% (-15.82%)
Grizzly: 5164.5 Def = 60.87% (-14.18%)

Not too bad I'd say. Scenario A puts us on par with knights (based on Tiduspeco's stats), but we would still have greater HP and recovery options, so we don't even need the 1Vit = 1Def Scenario that I suggested in an earlier post really.

I'm kind of interested in knowing, what is so big and scary that we would need superior Defense and HP to handle? I certainly haven't encountered anything like that.


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#29 Scribble92

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 10:12 PM

I have to agree with you. although i love having defence that is stupidly high, there is just no need for it combined with our high HP and self heals. As it is now there isn't a single dungeon i cant solo which just makes the whole thing pointless.


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#30 Scribble92

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 09:56 AM

hmmm anybody elses DoT been lowered with this last patch?

 


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#31 FlatulentToons

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 11:53 AM

Only thing I want is my tutu.. party hat.. possibly party blower thing.. and maybe rollerskates.

 

Apart from that this is a happy bear waiting patiently for new content.


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#32 destiny956

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 12:20 AM

Character: HyperBear

Feedback Type: Costume while in Grizzly form

Skill (If Applicable): More aoe, instead of 2 enemies, make it 5 or 10.

Feedback: I wonder if possible that grizzly can have costume. I'm always in grizzly form and there's no sense to buy costume if i cant see it in my bear.


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#33 8240130513123809593

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 03:34 AM

 

Character: HyperBear

Feedback Type: Costume while in Grizzly form

Skill (If Applicable): More aoe, instead of 2 enemies, make it 5 or 10.

Feedback: I wonder if possible that grizzly can have costume. I'm always in grizzly form and there's no sense to buy costume if i cant see it in my bear.

 

Have you ever even tried maxing Beast tornado?


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#34 Arbalist

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 09:56 AM

@ImEsAu: There's always the chance that he might be below master level, and therefore has not unlocked the full skill potentials.

 

@HyperBear: Rest assured we already have plenty of AOE options:

 

(These are based on maxed Master level skills)
6/6 Bear Tornado hits 10 targets 

10/10 Brutal Strike seems to hit around 5 or 6 targets (It goes away too fast for me to notice)
10/10 Fury strike hits 3 targets (and generates 10 threat for each of those targets hit)
We also have an AOE stun that hits 10 targets, but I can't remember its name to save my life.


Edited by Arbalist, 28 February 2014 - 09:59 AM.

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#35 Scribble92

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 10:12 AM

@ImEsAu: There's always the chance that he might be below master level, and therefore has not unlocked the full skill potentials.

 

@HyperBear: Rest assured we already have plenty of AOE options:

 

(These are based on maxed Master level skills)
6/6 Bear Tornado hits 10 targets 

10/10 Brutal Strike seems to hit around 5 or 6 targets (It goes away too fast for me to notice)
10/10 Fury strike hits 3 targets (and generates 10 threat for each of those targets hit)
We also have an AOE stun that hits 10 targets, but I can't remember its name to save my life.

yeah brutal strike hits 5 targets and the AOE stun is wild impact. its a pretty useful combo 


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#36 Arbalist

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 06:29 PM

More things I'd just want to put on the table, but are not necessarily suggestions because I have no way of knowing the studio's original intentions. Would love to have official commentary from the CM/GM/Studio team in these threads if possible though:

1) Anyone who plays Beastmaster should know that HP potion consumption is near zero. In terms of overall balance, is this intended as a class niche or is this just due to poor planning on the studio's part? I'll be optimistic and assume this is intentional because the current trade-off to not needing HP potions is that SP consumption is high enough to warrant using SP potions. Thoughts?

 

2) Similar to not being able to use Ymir form, some items are not usable in Grizzly form. I speak specifically about the Skill Scrolls purchased from unions (ie. Niffleheim Seed for Frost Nova effect). Not an issue since I don't PVP anymore, but part of me still wants to summon Meteor storms in Grizzly form (a different scroll from Magic Union). Again, is certain item lock-out intentional or was it overlooked by the studio?

Nyan nyan. If I actually get official feedback, I will strip naked and dance in the streets of Morroc in celebration (even though I already do that).


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#37 Turniper

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 06:28 AM

Character: Ursaling

Feedback Type: BM balance

Skill (If Applicable): All of them I guess? Nah, I'd say most or even some maybe.

Feedback: Beastmasters have always been good tanks, where other tanks had high defense and parry, BMs had high hp and heals to make up for it making much more dynamic gameplay. Other tanks can just sit there and as long as they can keep aggro they're fine, but the BM's low damage mitigation leaves us with a constant need to heal. The only balance issues BMs had before AoV(imo) was that we had such -_- hit rate. Tank gear gave crap, and having to tank bosses 4 levels above us only rubbed the problem in our faces. Right now that isn't an issue in PvM, but that seems to be plaguing the whole community in terms of PvP so look into that as a general fix (but with us in mind :3)

 

Anyway, healing was always what BMs have been about, low defense was never issue because the extra damage taken could be healed up. Having the defense increase is great and I love it, but it's unreasonably high and steps into the other tanks' territory. As the only tank that required hit rate in order to survive, that would have been a much more appropriate boost in my opinion.

 

Things to note:

-Cruel bite is pretty op right now but that's because of the high defense which doesn't even help in PvP when you're a walking punching bag loaded with explosives. 

-SP consumption is -_-. We need to carry around SP food and pots in order to solo the now trash raid bosses. But I guess this is reasonable since most other classes have to carry around HP pots(?)

-Feral defense is pretty useless right now. It was nice to have as an emergency defense skill that added to the dynamic of tanking pre-AoV, but there's really no need for it now. Maybe in the upcoming raid it'll have a place but.... (refer below)

-How exactly are we supposed to know what would "balance" the game when there's nothing in endgame besides PvP worth being balanced for? We don't know what the new raid is like so how will we know where to set the bar for class balancing when that comes out? What happens when classes are finally balanced with each other and the new raid ends up being Osiris 2.0?

 

Other thing:

As others have said above, BM fixes are pretty low priority. Fixing the weaker classes to the point where you can THEN bring the more OP classes down to their level should be top priority here, but because this is a suggestions thread and I haven't actually suggested anything:

 

Replace the defense boost on VIT to a hit rate boost... preferably on VIT :D


Edited by Turniper, 04 March 2014 - 06:36 AM.

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#38 Scribble92

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 06:31 PM

Character: scirbble92

Feedback type:F hotkey change.

Skill: fury strike

Feedback: Just a minor thing. Now that fury strike is a skill that accumulates beast power and is in a BM's usual skill rotation., I see no point in it being assigned to the F key whilst Brutal strike is on cool down. In addition to this, Fury strike only appears as an option for the f key when 50 beast power has been accumulated. So if it is not removed, the threshold for it to be appear as an option for the f key should be lowered. 


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#39 Scribble92

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 10:16 AM

 

Character: Skyfoo

Feedback Type: Skill Stats Suggestion

Skill: Tiger Form and Frenzy(fairly useless) maybe give tiger stealth or something worthwhile or get rid of them both i dunno... or since you guys like to copy WoW tiger could be the dps form and frenzy could be a atk speed skill...

 

I would tend not to agree that frenzy is useless. It can be useful if you use it at the beginning of a battle to build your beast power quicker allowing you to gain predators power/ boundary effect. it also allows you to use cruel bite more often to reset brutal strike or extra healing if needed.

 

Edit: urgh typos


Edited by Scribble92, 05 March 2014 - 10:39 AM.

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#40 Asri12

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 02:07 AM

Wake up all BM. Why want nerf?? Nothing wrong with BM. It is not too OP. Here is event from SEA server "Last Man Standing"
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=JOI7mdGetqs
 

Got 10 group with 10 participant from each group. Champion from each group will go to final round. A lot of strong people participate in this event. 
as you can see, no BM in final round. Top 4 strongest BM in the entire server is eliminate in early stage. all 4 BM using full set osiris with full +10 rune and blueseed above 25%. and all of them have more than 11k DEF/53k hp. Why still lose when they are the strongest BM? Simple, because their opponent(Final contestant) is the strongest in their class. Rogue on the video now can deal 130k damage on tank(after the event). Both Knight is top strongest knight in the server. Both defeat  BM in early stage. That war can also deal very high damage to BM. both monk in the video can 2 hit KO BM with his asura combo. That cresentia which in my opinion the strongest cresentia in SEA server got pretty insane DOT. You still want nerf when you are actually not OP. NA server update will affect SEA server too. I dont want they nerf my BM.

 

Still think ur BM the strongest tank? Play the video again and see the rogue stat.

1) See how many attack power he have and how many damage he deal to the knight. VERY LOW coz that knight got very high parry. 

2) Now see how many DEF that rogue have. He almost die by War rage strike.

Knight have the highest parry and pretty good DEF. War have the highest attack power and pretty good parry/dodge. Monk have a very good balance between attack power, DEF, parry and dodge. Why BM cant have the highest DEF and heal

 

 


Edited by Asri12, 13 March 2014 - 02:25 AM.

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#41 Meconopsis

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 04:51 AM

Wake up all BM. Why want nerf?? Nothing wrong with BM. It is not too OP. Here is event from SEA server "Last Man Standing"
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=JOI7mdGetqs

Got 10 group with 10 participant from each group. Champion from each group will go to final round. A lot of strong people participate in this event.
as you can see, no BM in final round. Top 4 strongest BM in the entire server is eliminate in early stage. all 4 BM using full set osiris with full +10 rune and blueseed above 25%. and all of them have more than 11k DEF/53k hp. Why still lose when they are the strongest BM? Simple, because their opponent(Final contestant) is the strongest in their class. Rogue on the video now can deal 130k damage on tank(after the event). Both Knight is top strongest knight in the server. Both defeat BM in early stage. That war can also deal very high damage to BM. both monk in the video can 2 hit KO BM with his asura combo. That cresentia which in my opinion the strongest cresentia in SEA server got pretty insane DOT. You still want nerf when you are actually not OP. NA server update will affect SEA server too. I dont want they nerf my BM.

Still think ur BM the strongest tank? Play the video again and see the rogue stat.
1) See how many attack power he have and how many damage he deal to the knight. VERY LOW coz that knight got very high parry.
2) Now see how many DEF that rogue have. He almost die by War rage strike.

Knight have the highest parry and pretty good DEF. War have the highest attack power and pretty good parry/dodge. Monk have a very good balance between attack power, DEF, parry and dodge. Why BM cant have the highest DEF and heal


How the heck is this proving BM Is anything? This is just a bunch of people from the same guild ganging up on certain targets. Obviously you're going to die when you are focused fired. This offers zero contribution to anything balance-wise. It's like trying to balance Premade Colo.
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#42 Arbalist

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 10:12 PM

Yeah..it's really a stretch to use the SEA tournament as a comparison. Here are some of the glaring differences which disqualifies this in my opinion:

  • A lot of our suggestions here are PVE based. This is because the only reliable comparison we can make is relative to the current endgame bosses and mobs. Now Gravity is moving slightly towards making them hit harder (penetration damage) and if hit/dodge rates were fixed, they may start posing a challenge. As of the 3/12 patch, I can still easily solo endgame in Bear form without breaking a sweat, so my stance hasn't changed. 
  • Because of the hit/dodge issues, I feel PVP cannot be a reliable comparison. Now I assume SEA also has this issue, because if it were fixed, then it's quite disappointing that we haven't had a timely balancing to our hit/dodge system too. As far as I can assume, the problems still persist. The free-for-all nature of this tournament also subjects it to several variables, such as ganging up, kill steals, and luck. This is always going to be a difficult element to separate. Our main source of PVP in my opinion are Colosseums and Duels. Our server's Colosseum cannot be used as a comparison method because we are forced to take on outdated "standardized" stats for "fairness". Duels would be nicer comparison, but of course we are still constrained by hit/dodge unbalance.
  • The average person in our server does not have full +10 runes, the best titles, the best cards, or runes over 25% on all their gear. This may be different on SEA, but the point I make is that we cannot compare the average player to the top players in the game with some of the best boosts.
  • Briefly skimmed video for the stats. Apparently this Rogue has 12814 Defense which is 79.42% and an additional 15% defense skill stat and I think it's pretty fair to say that this is a problem, no? With the scaling of Defence, it's really hard to get over that amount (80% = 13280 Def, 85% = 18813 Def, 90% = 29880 Def, 95% = 63080 Def, 99% = 328680 Def). If you want to say that BM will reach better levels than the Rogue in the video, then 1) it's not going to be large enough % increase to distinguish it as a tank class and 2) well those numbers are just insane, aren't they? As far as I know, in our server, we will not be reaching those numbers any time soon, so the SEA server is in an entirely different league than us. SEA server needs its own balances, but it shouldn't really stem from IRO2 system because the gap between us is so vast. I pray for equity for BMs in the SEA server as well, but it's an entirely different issue over there.

I hope this clears it up.
EDIT 1: Moved some sentences around for point 2


Edited by Arbalist, 13 March 2014 - 10:31 PM.

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#43 AsriXII

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 02:36 AM

This is the latest tournament in SEA server. This is top 16 participant in the event. the rest is eliminate in earlier round. All star. I can say that they are the best in their class. See where is the beastmaster place? bear is overpower? I dont think so. SEA server will follow NA server patch. if they nerf beastmaster here, we in SEA server will also affected. pls dont

1972457_712992448723974_1070902851_n.jpg


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#44 destiny956

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 03:36 PM

Character: HyperBear

Feedback Type: Hit stat in weapon

Feedback Type: can ride mount in grizzly form

 


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#45 Turniper

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 04:04 PM

How do you recreate this bug! @_@


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#46 esbern

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 10:44 AM

ive been reading posts here and there but im still blind. thanks to cruel bite, survival becomes useless except for pvp due to the horrible hit rate? and for the same reason feral defense won't be needed anymore? cuz its kinda a BM thing to actually not take damage for the whole 13 secs (which is awesome).
 
so, i was thinking of: build, what do you think?

 

1. i want both bear and grizzly.

2. no ymir since you cant use it during grizzly so whatev.

3. beast tornado > 10 targets= OT... FINALLY besides its always been great. BUT i want to hear what you have to say about this, lv3 enough or perhaps lv6 or maybe leave it at 1?

4. wild impact is one reason BMs are famous of so im so getting this.

5. wild crush. several people get this to lv5, some lv10. i personally would love to have this maxed. why would some leave this at 5?


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#47 Arbalist

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 12:45 PM

@Ursaling, if you're referring to Hyperbear's post, I think those are suggestions not bugs :o Otherwise, I too want to recreate this bug.

@esbern
Looks fine to me. Pretty standard since we can (almost) max everything that is essential. That's a major flaw for BMs in my opinion, everything is cookie cutter, everyone essentially has the same skills.

1. Yeah, I think most people will too, not much to max and the two forms gives you plenty of versatility.
2. Ymir can't be used for Grizzly, but can be used in Bear. You may find the added benefits to be a slightly useful burst in DPS, or just for walking faster. I would transfer 3 points from Rage Smash to Ymir for that utility, but it doesn't matter too much. I don't care for Rage Smash that much because it's mostly for single targets, whereas I believe BMs are most efficient when there are at least 3 targets. In that situation, I would use Beast Tornado instead of Rage Smash in my rotation.
3. I personally prefer 6/6 because we are great mobbers and we can deal more damage in a shorter time to more targets this way (specifically for grinding purposes). 1-3 hits the same # of targets so I would say instead of 3/6, go make the jump to 4/6 instead. I stand by 6/6 however.
4. It's pretty cool. With Osiris gear and some red seeds, you can probably get away with stunning every 20s or less when maxed too. Not overly necessary in the current state of the game, but still cool to have. You can deal some nice damage using Wild Impact and Brutal Strike together.
5. I also prefer 10 so I don't know why this would be left at 5. Perhaps people run out of skill points before they decide to grind for extra points? The last 20 points are a major pain to grind for, so keep that in mind when prioritizing skills.

http://ro2base.com/b...1.1.1/0.0.0.0.0
This is my build for the first 50 points I have. I haven't found the urge to grind for the last 20 points yet.
 


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#48 Turniper

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 12:51 PM

ive been reading posts here and there but im still blind. thanks to cruel bite, survival becomes useless except for pvp due to the horrible hit rate? and for the same reason feral defense won't be needed anymore? cuz its kinda a BM thing to actually not take damage for the whole 13 secs (which is awesome).
 
so, i was thinking of: build, what do you think?

 

1. i want both bear and grizzly.

2. no ymir since you cant use it during grizzly so whatev.

3. beast tornado > 10 targets= OT... FINALLY besides its always been great. BUT i want to hear what you have to say about this, lv3 enough or perhaps lv6 or maybe leave it at 1?

4. wild impact is one reason BMs are famous of so im so getting this.

5. wild crush. several people get this to lv5, some lv10. i personally would love to have this maxed. why would some leave this at 5?

 

Lemme see if I can hit everything here:

 

-Cruel bite can be used several times in the time it takes for survival to go off CD, and it also has the benefit of being in your main skill rotation now.

-Feral Defense isn't bad, but because of the high hp/def/heals that BMs have currently, it's not as necessary anymore. Several classes have their own skills that can negate that and the skill points are better placed somewhere else.

 

About your build:

 

1. A hybrid build is fine but it suffers in pvp because of the lack of skill points. It's really up to you to decide what you will and won't sacrifice to be able to use both effectively

2. We're working on that.

3. I leave it at one because I like the AoEs from fury and brutal strike better, along with being able to get the predator buff and throw some cruel bites in. Another thing is that putting points into beast tornado doesn't let you max out your single target skills as much which will be much more useful later on when the new raid comes out.

4. Yes. But you're a hybrid so like I said before, you won't be able to max out certain skills that'll be pretty useful.

5. I have it maxed out despite the DoT being pretty -_-ty. The defense reduction is nice and it also generates extra aggro which would be useful for a tank BM.

 

Also, what your build is right now is up to you, there isn't much room to experiment because we don't have free resets anymore, but once class balances come, we'll be getting free resets to finalize and maybe play around with a little.

 

For reference, here's my build:

http://ro2base.com/b...1.1.1/0.0.0.0.0


Edited by Turniper, 24 March 2014 - 12:52 PM.

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#49 bigdaddymoo

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 01:47 PM

ok let me say i have been playing this game off and on since 2012.

 

I made a BM within the last few weeks and am at end game. There is nothing wrong with BM they work how they were intended to work ! 

I have a suggestion to BM's who think they need to make them weaker . Stop going all Vit :P Change your stats to how you want to play.

If you think as a BM you have to much Health/Def dont put any points into Vit. I have 0 points into it and yes I need a healer . Stop trying to get a class nerfed

for no other reason than ignorance.I am tired of reading how BM is this or that no one who is not a BM should be making any replies on this post and should be banned from posting for a few weeks since obviously they cant read . Also to those of you who claim to be a BM and can solo end game without any stones or honing your gear

are full of crap . With honing and socketing what gear can be from dungeons I have a total 30%Def no clue where your getting 60% unless fully decked out and put money into..which if is the case than you deserve what you have a great tank! Stop trying to ruin it for those of us who cant afford to max out all gear ! I put money into this game as i can afford and in no way shape or form can i compete against some of the BM's I have seen and at least 1 I have seen post on this thread talking about reduction.

 

Anyway I am still having fun and am enjoying the game as well as the nice atmosphere within the community 

 

NERFS ONLY ADD TO PEOPLE QUITTING

 


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#50 Arbalist

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 02:47 PM

Wait 30% Defense? That doesn't make sense. Endgame is Master level content, so at the minimum I make the assumption that you are level 51. With a full set of Desert Scorpion as the weakest and most easily farmed Master Level set, you should have at least 3044 (1854 Base Def + 1190 Vit Def). This corresponds to a 53.41% Defense. Even if Vit Def from our class bonus was removed, you would have 41.12% Defense minimum.
 

Defense%=Defense/((Defense*.01)+(Level*.35)+8.7)

Defense% = 3044/((3044*.01)+(51*.35)+8.7) = 53.41%

 

So called "nerf" where Vit = 0 Def:

Defense% = 1854/((1854*.01)+(51*.35)+8.7) = 41.12%

 

This is the bare minimum standard for a Master Level BM. Human form, no Vit investment, no cards, no title, no accessories, no honing, no socketing, nothing.

I'm troubled by why your defense is 30%, can you provide us with more information please?


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