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#1 Harkoa

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 06:56 PM

Hello there fellow monks and other peoples~
 
Ok, so the last topic one of the VCRs made went kinda ok for some community feedback, thus I don't really know what to expect here; but I do want to gather some new and more recent feedback. We had a bit of FotM (flavor of the month) happen, so there might be more people out there this time around with opinions to contribute.
 
It's pretty obvious we haven't seen many changes via the VCR program yet, however the reports are there and the contents may be used eventually. Let's try to think positive about our input, and not use this thread as a QQ area for the VCR program.
 
With that said~
 
I've talked to many people in-game, on 1v1, and group convos, about the Monk class and I've already gathered several notes (the big and popular ones I will list below). The things I list I really want to emphasize feedback on, and if you have anything additional to add, then add it!


Defense - I've heard both sides of the story on this one. 1-shot skills are a major problem right now but majority of the people I spoke with seem to think defense on Monks is too high in PvP. Meanwhile there are people who feel that excluding gfist, a monks sub par damage is only balanced by their defense.

 

Threat Gain - Only place you can really test this right now is in Chaos and other like-raids. In the past monks have been known to have cruddy threat gain, while being mostly a 1v1 tank. We currently have a 300% Threat increase with Steel Body, and +100% threat gain of the damage done with Lightning Crush (our AoE). We have a total of 1 taunt with about a 15 sec CD in Osiris gear. Opinions are our threat gain needs to be greatly increased somehow to be more viable tanks, and/or remove the CD off of our Taunt.

 

DoT - Believe it or not, yes we have 1. Just 1. And it's pretty awful. We get a DoT when we use Crushing Blow equal to 3% of our attack. Opinion is it's way too low. It shouldn't be crazy high, but something moderate. We had a huge DoT nerf a while back and it is possible it's still a broken formula since then, however it does about 40 damage per tick if lucky. We don't specialize in DoTs, crushing blow has really low damage but gives us 2 combo points. It's basically a skill to get us to 3 combo points faster, so increasing the DoT damage shouldn't be overpowering. What would you consider a good amount of damage for this skill's DoT?

 

Skill: Flee - Pretty much everyone I've talked to considers this skill useless. Best suggestion I've heard is to turn this into a party buff. If agreed, what kind of party buff would you like to see? So far, I've heard suggestions for +hit%, -dmg% from enemies, and +regenspeed%

 

Skill: G-Fist & Heavy Tackle - I'm partnering these together because it requires balancing the two. Opinions agree that gfist is too strong right now (like mostly all of the 1-shot skills), but without it, monks really lack decent/on-par damage compared to other classes. Decreasing the damage % on gfist but increasing the damage % on heavy tackle seems favorable. From my personal experience, the damage on gfist varies a lot (regardless the targets HP %), and it doesn't feel like it's the +damage % the skill says it is. I feel like that's something that should be looked into. What's your opinions on this?

 

Those are the major notes. Remember we're looking for balance, try to compare to other classes if possible when expressing opinions. And again, if you have anything you'd like to add, do so~
 
Thanks in advance!  :no1:
 

Spoiler


Edited by Harkoa, 07 July 2014 - 01:54 PM.

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#2 Meconopsis

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 06:48 PM

-Defense issue is universal. For Monk, you want high defense in exchange for high damage. Burst damage is the forte of the Monk.

-Threat gain issue depends on damage and modifiers for threat gain. More threat means more damage required, or adding more modifiers, which would unbalance the class compared to others. The reason why the other classes have higher threat is due to damage from all sources like DoTs, Attack Speed, Skill Animation Speed, and Damage. Your suggestions would most likely be something that future class expansions could have, but other classes would need more modifiers also.

-The DoT issue from my opinion needs to be removed. Having a DoT to homogenized the class with others, while good for producing extra threat, is really what I said, just added for the sake of it. Nerfing the base damage while improving the DoT value could make it pretty good though besides being a 2 Spirit Sphere Generator.

-Flee as a skill, while not as good as it was anymore, if ever, needs to be remade into a stronger personal buff more than a party buff. The sake of a party buff to incentivize party play, while good, requires a stat that is actually worthwhile to level as a skill. Improving Flee much like Fury, but a defensive version would be ideal.

-For the skills G-Fist and Heavy Tackle - You are right that most "finisher" skills are too strong as they are now, but the Monk's "finisher" G-Fist should be the strongest of them all. G-Fist requires the longest required build-up to use by requiring a buff (Fury) in order to activate. While SSS fixes the problem for faster engages, that is a problem in the skill SSS. Heavy Tackle though should feel like a strong attack, but you cannot really buff a skill that still can activate a threatening debuff in the form of Internal Wound. Also, G-Fist's damage varies because damage is based upon your weapon's damage range, which because of higher percentages, can vary in number quite a bit.

 

You have a pretty good idea of what needs to be looked at though, so I leave you my opinions and see how far you can convince the developers to see the monk community's vision.


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#3 youoo

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 11:26 PM

For PVP

 

-The real 1vs1 PVP is with pots and heal or a PVP in WOE. I think monk are fine now though some of its skill like iron skin and flee need to rework. 

 

-Sounds like Harkoa wants to nerf the monk, maybe you should try to pvp with other class with pots, im sure heavy tackle can kill in a friendly duel w/o pots.

 

-here my suggestion, if you want to nerf the defense, try pvp according the the defence you desired like putting only a level 3 iron skin or a level 3 steel body. yeah pvp with pots. why? we know monk cant heal and thats the one advantage of other class, they can pots or heal themselves, can hide as well, not to mention they have a lot of debuff or unabling skills.

 

-try to pvp without maxing the G-fist with your desired damage%. lets see if you'll be able to kill that SM with 13k cure or a priest with 30k highness heal.

 

-Most class now using Full Vit specially priest and BM. if he has 45-70k HP with +20 gears, i doubt you'll be able to 1-hit him.

 

-Most of us trying to balance each class without armor and cards just a pure skill, but this is not the reality. a sorc with +20 gears, I doubt defense would really matter anymore between DPS and Tanks.

 

My conclusion: heavy tackle or any offensive skill except G-fist wouldn't save you in pvp.   

 

 

About PVE

- maybe our AOE need to increase the damage :p_devil: for more aggro.  

- healing and dps, you can use pets we have blessed already with very high defense. 

 

 

For me MOnk are already unique tank, cant heal with very high defense. so stop making monk more look like a knight or a warrior  


Edited by youoo, 07 July 2014 - 01:50 AM.

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#4 youoo

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 12:41 AM

theres no such thing called "balance" as long honing and green seeds exist. 


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#5 rzevidz007

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 04:51 AM

 

 

Decreasing the damage % on gfist but increasing the damage % on heavy tackle seems favorable

 

Please. No.

Monks already have 350% damage of their basic attack, 600%++ damage on heavy tackle which requires only 3, yes 3 spirits in contrast to other class' that requires at least five to deal that much damage (i.e: Thieves. Swordsmen also uses 3 auras to deal Aura Strike, but AS is only 400% damage..). It's already that high.

 

There are always different approaches to put Monks on par to other tanks and even DPS in particular in terms of DPS in PvE (and possibly PVP). What I would suggest is to eliminate the Critical Explosion requirement on Asura Strike AND reduce the CD to a mere 20-30 seconds to be able to deal decent DPS in raid and possibly in PVP too. With this, it won't affect to much in a 1vs1 duel because Monks I battled will wait until their skills off cooldown before accepting any duels (talk about chickens lol..) but greatly increase Monks' capability in WoE and PvM even raid plays with more DPS from their Asura Strike. It is just unfair to see that Monks with its 60 seconds cooldown on their ultimate skill whereas Priests have a 20 seconds CD of a 1900%++ ultimate skill (Ray of Genesis), undisputed heals and crazy dots, only lacking on HP. 

 


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#6 Harkoa

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 12:18 PM

-Sounds like Harkoa wants to nerf the monk, maybe you should try to pvp with other class with pots, im sure heavy tackle can kill in a friendly duel w/o pots.

 
For the love of Odin, absolutely not. Do you know how long I've waited for monks to get some sparkle in the limelight? It's been at least a year, since the release of RO2.
 
All of the opinions in my first post, I said repeatedly, were opinions and feedback I gathered from other people. I composed them into simple bullets and I'm asking for community feedback as it's likely that I hold bias opinions, and it's very likely that they do too.

 

-try to pvp without maxing the G-fist with your desired damage%. lets see if you'll be able to kill that SM with 13k cure or a priest with 30k highness heal.

 
I PvP constantly without using gfist entirely to prove my point that without it, monks can rarely, if ever, win in PvP.

 

For me MOnk are already unique tank, cant heal with very high defense. so stop making monk more look like a knight or a warrior

 

None of the suggestion bullets would make them similar to knight or warriors, not sure where that's coming from.

 

 

 

The reason I didn't voice my personal opinions in that first post is because I don't want people to get into an uproar and think I'll only follow my own voice. VCR is community feedback and that's what I'm trying to gather.


Edited by Harkoa, 07 July 2014 - 12:32 PM.

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#7 youoo

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 03:46 PM

 
For the love of Odin, absolutely not. Do you know how long I've waited for monks to get some sparkle in the limelight? It's been at least a year, since the release of RO2.
 
All of the opinions in my first post, I said repeatedly, were opinions and feedback I gathered from other people. I composed them into simple bullets and I'm asking for community feedback as it's likely that I hold bias opinions, and it's very likely that they do too.

 

 
I PvP constantly without using gfist entirely to prove my point that without it, monks can rarely, if ever, win in PvP.

 

 

None of the suggestion bullets would make them similar to knight or warriors, not sure where that's coming from.

 

 

 

The reason I didn't voice my personal opinions in that first post is because I don't want people to get into an uproar and think I'll only follow my own voice. VCR is community feedback and that's what I'm trying to gather.

glad to hear you don't like to nerf it, well i get the idea lot of monk player want this heal skill most of them comparing it to a warrior.

 

its a bad thing to get opinion on those not monk player. obviously, they want to nef the monk to make their class OP.

 

most of my guild who cant beat me in colo always QQ like they want to nerf its defense. im fine with it, if they will agree to have the monk a range spammable OP skill like they had XD    


Edited by youoo, 07 July 2014 - 04:09 PM.

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#8 Harkoa

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 03:57 PM

glad to hear you don't like to nerf it, well i get the idea lot of monk player want this heal skill most of them comparing it to a warrior.

 

its a bad thing to get opinion on those not monk player. obviously, they want to nef the monk to make their class OP.

 

most of my guild who cant beat me in colo always QQ like they want to nerf its defense. im fine with it, if they will agree to have the monk a range spammable OP skill like they haved XD    

 

Yeah everyone I talk to, that isn't a monk, wants them nerfed. While monks are like 'uhm no, go try one then come back to me and see if you still QQ about them' (kinda how I feel too)

 

For the heal.... I knew from the beginning we're likely to never see one, so I just got my 99 pets for the cool down + a heal pet to kind of make up for that weakness =/ Sucks having to rely on that or guzzle pots tho. I haven't asked many non-monks what they think of monks lacking/having a heal, but I know knights have a sucky self heal atm and aren't too happy either... this game needs a lot of skill balancing right now.


Edited by Harkoa, 07 July 2014 - 03:57 PM.

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#9 youoo

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 04:29 PM

Yeah everyone I talk to, that isn't a monk, wants them nerfed. While monks are like 'uhm no, go try one then come back to me and see if you still QQ about them' (kinda how I feel too)

 

For the heal.... I knew from the beginning we're likely to never see one, so I just got my 99 pets for the cool down + a heal pet to kind of make up for that weakness =/ Sucks having to rely on that or guzzle pots tho. I haven't asked many non-monks what they think of monks lacking/having a heal, but I know knights have a sucky self heal atm and aren't too happy either... this game needs a lot of skill balancing right now.

about raid and grinding,

 

Healing and dps are not monk concerned but we need a stable aggro. I notice if a priest use AOE heal all mobs will go to him, so maybe our AOE need to increase its damage. rightnow, i do 5k -10k though I don't know the normal damage of knight and warrior AOE. 

 

I don't really like monk more look like knight to have this mass provoke skill, maybe our AOE need more adjustment.

 

More AOE damage = fast kill = more aggro = less heal needed.


Edited by youoo, 07 July 2014 - 04:32 PM.

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#10 LordCrustyBoxers

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 10:28 AM

The monks defence is an iffy subject, i believe def caps at 75% and my monk has 88% with only 1 refined armor which is +17. If this is the case the extra def is not needed

 

So going off the assumption that def DOES cap at 75% we could easily get rid or change the effect of iron Skin. My suggestion is make the iron skin a heal skill of sorts. Like Increase regeneration rate by 100% or Heals 200 HP every 5 seconds

 

Lightning crash, the effect should be similiar ti the BM's where the aftercast delay goes to 0 at 6 

 

In my opinion Heavy tackle is not worth using half the time, the damage i do with raging blow does the same damage if not more 90% of the time,

 

Throw spirit sphere should have its damage increase removed and a DOT effect added in

 

Crushing blow should have its DOT effect changed to an armor rip ability like a BM where it reduces the targets deffence by like an XX amount.

 

Lightning walk should  be fixed so we don't teleport across the map (more of a bug)

 

Asura, id like to have this skill not require fury to cast, its annoying as -_- to get 3 spheres fury then asura most of the time they get up so the crit effect on the skill is useless

 

 

 

 

 


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#11 youoo

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 05:17 AM

The monks defence is an iffy subject, i believe def caps at 75% and my monk has 88% with only 1 refined armor which is +17. If this is the case the extra def is not needed

 

So going off the assumption that def DOES cap at 75% we could easily get rid or change the effect of iron Skin. My suggestion is make the iron skin a heal skill of sorts. Like Increase regeneration rate by 100% or Heals 200 HP every 5 seconds

 

Lightning crash, the effect should be similiar ti the BM's where the aftercast delay goes to 0 at 6 

 

In my opinion Heavy tackle is not worth using half the time, the damage i do with raging blow does the same damage if not more 90% of the time,

 

Throw spirit sphere should have its damage increase removed and a DOT effect added in

 

Crushing blow should have its DOT effect changed to an armor rip ability like a BM where it reduces the targets deffence by like an XX amount.

 

Lightning walk should  be fixed so we don't teleport across the map (more of a bug)

 

Asura, id like to have this skill not require fury to cast, its annoying as -_- to get 3 spheres fury then asura most of the time they get up so the crit effect on the skill is useless

please don't, this the only thing help me to maximized and not to waste my G-Fist or need to use summon spirit sphere over my opponent who's a VIT build with OP armor rune.

 

If that DOT do 6k-8k to counter the SM or priest HOT maybe. if not, no thanks it will be a waste effort and skill.

 

I agree about our other offensive skill, its damage are sucks like we need it only to get spheres. But I don't mind it if I have lower cooldown G-fist.

 

Also, I hope if only our AOE need to improve, like 1.5 sec cooldown instead of 3 sec. 

 

I think that 75% are the highest defense the DPS can be obtain, but for tanks more than 75%. but still, it means we have only 25% to make our hit do high damage.

 

max your lightning walk into level 5 for 5 sec stun & 20 sec cooldown, fury and throw spirit sphere are very essential for G-fist max damage.   

 

Finally about bug, not just lightning walk are bug some time also g-fist cant be cast after ki-explosion. (i never stunned so i know it never canceled) 


Edited by youoo, 09 July 2014 - 06:14 AM.

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#12 youoo

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 06:04 AM

guys we need ideal skill not just effective in PVE.

 

for you guys love only PVE.

Here the skill you need to max.

 

Crushing blow, dose 800-900 DOT damage at 8k attck power on dwf mobs w/o elements

Heavy tackle do 5k-10k, 2.5k if parry. dwf mobs has high parry & defense rate.

raging blow the only skill you can spam.

 

the damage done by this skills are higher than to wait for 40-50 sec cooldown of g-fist. (of course mobs don't know how to pots and heal) -_-

 

 

 


Edited by youoo, 09 July 2014 - 08:48 PM.

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#13 Harkoa

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 10:27 PM

guys we need ideal skill not just effective in PVE.

 

for you guys love only PVE.

Here the skill you need to max.

 

Crushing blow, dose 800-900 DOT damage at 8k attck power on dwf mobs w/o elements

Heavy tackle do 5k-10k, 2.5k if parry. dwf mobs has high parry & defense rate.

raging blow the only skill you can spam.

 

the damage done by this skills are higher than to wait for 40-50 sec cooldown of g-fist. (of course mobs don't know how to pots and heal) -_-

 

Whatttttttt??? There's no way. My DoT from Crushing Blow, at the very most, does 150 damage on any mob in any zone or area.


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#14 Contact Support 001

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 01:27 AM

Whatttttttt??? There's no way. My DoT from Crushing Blow, at the very most, does 150 damage on any mob in any zone or area.

level 10=35%

 

yours level1=3%


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#15 Harkoa

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 11:11 AM

level 10=35%

 

yours level1=3%

 

Perhaps I should not read posts when I'm sleepy, didn't notice their "max skill" comment. That is a good chunk of damage actually. I just reset to Lvl5 with it and it's giving me 550-650 DoTs... 

 

1 = 130 ish

5 = 550 ish

10 = 850 ish


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#16 Greven79

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 05:45 AM

Perhaps I should not read posts when I'm sleepy, didn't notice their "max skill" comment. That is a good chunk of damage actually. I just reset to Lvl5 with it and it's giving me 550-650 DoTs... 

 

1 = 130 ish

5 = 550 ish

10 = 850 ish

 

Can't be true. Compared to lvl 1, the skill has to be 5 times better at level 5 and ~12 times better at level 10.

 

Assuming 130 damage at level 1:

Then it's 650 damage at level 5

And 1500 damage at level 10

 

Assuming 850 damage at level 10

Then it's 365 damage at level 5

and only 73 damage at level 1


Edited by Greven79, 29 July 2014 - 09:25 AM.

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#17 Greven79

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 07:32 AM

Edit: Shortened

 

@ Mecronopsis:

Defense = universal issue - I agree

Threat = damage - I agree. Warriors/Knights have a higher DPS, not just a better threat.

___________________________

 

@ rzevidz007:

20~30sec cd for Asura Strike - You're right, it needs a better cooldown, but 20sec would be too much.

 

In LotS, the G-Fist damage was 36% higher than the damage of a Shield Cannon. To compensate that, the G-Fist had to have a cooldown of at least 41sec (also 36% higher). The G-Fist rather had a 60sec CD, but due to SSS,  the G-Fist could be used three times every 120sec = an average CD of 40sec.

 

With AoV, both the Shield Cannon and the G-Fist damage was increased by 36~40%. However, the cooldown of Shield Cannon was decreased to 20sec - a 50% improvement. To do the same with G-Fist, the cooldown should be shortened to 40sec. But to compare the DPS rates:

 

Shield Cannon: 1160% damage, 20sec CD = 58% DPS (hits multiple times)

Rage Strike: 1140% damage, 20sec CD = 57% DPS (hits multiple targets)

Brutal Strike: 1300% damage, 20sec CD = 65% DPS (hits multiple targets, requires only 5 skill points)

 

Shadow Explosion: 1070% damage, 10sec CD = 107% DPS

 

Guillotine Fist with 40sec CD: 1680% damage = 42% DPS

Guillotine Fist with 30sec CD: 1680% damage = 56% DPS

 

You see, even a 30sec cooldown would be fine. But the monk has SSS and a good conditional bonus, so 40sec would be just fine.


Edited by Greven79, 04 August 2014 - 01:04 AM.

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#18 3069121108025959500

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 05:50 AM

just my suggestion/idea.

 

why not let G-fist hit normally with explosion but doesnt have the crit when knockdown.

 

G-fist = normal dmg

G-fist + fury explosion = dmg + 30% more dmg + 30% ignore def armor reduction

G-fist + fury explosion + knockdown = dmg + 30% more dmg + 30% ignore def armor reduction + crit

G-fist + knockdown = dmg + crit

 

or

 

G-fist = normal dmg

G-fist + fury explosion = dmg + 30% more dmg

G-fist + fury explosion + knockdown = dmg + 30% more dmg + 40% ignore def armor reduction + crit

G-fist + knockdown = dmg + crit

 

with this we can like have lots of combo and yet we can G-fist even without FE.

G-fist should ignore target def and sure hit anyway like in RO1.


Edited by 3069121108025959500, 20 August 2014 - 03:50 AM.

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#19 Greven79

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 09:14 AM

I am not sure, if I understood you correctly.

 

with this we can like have lots of combo and yet we can G-fist even without FE.

G-fist should ignore target def and sure hit anyway like in RO1.

 

Currently, there is no G-Fist without Fury Explosion because the devs decided to add the 'sphere' or 'inner spirit' requirement to the buff rather than the attack skill. I guess they did it to 'balance' the monk buff towards other comparable skills that either have a drawback (Berserk, Concentration) or forbid other buff skills (Bear Form). You would have to change that first.

 

Edit: I was mistaken: He meant to always bypass 30% of the armor, not a 30% chance to ignore it completely. Therefore the following statements might be misleading!

 

If the current G-Fist would ignore the defense of the target (armor penetration), it would deal a much higher damage. Against a target with 75% defense rate, you currently deal only 1/4 of the original damage. So if the G-Fist would score such a penetrating hit, it would deal four times as much damage as right now!!!

 

Although I could understand the desire to get a mechanism that bypasses all the +20 refinement stupidness and even if you would remove the 'Internal Wound' // less then 20% HP bonus damage (hope I got that right), it would still be by far too much damage.

 

The only option that I would honestly consider is to replace the current critical system completely, replacing it with an armor penetration version instead. Classes wouldn't get +x CRIT / AGI anymore, but +x Armor Penetration / AGI instead. But I think that the monk would then be on the 'losing' side again.


Edited by Greven79, 20 August 2014 - 02:55 AM.

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 01:11 PM

then make the g-fist hit lesser dmg without FE. its like a win-win situation?

 

the armor reduction doesnt really mean take out all the defense rate, maybe make it abt 10% to 20%.


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Posted 20 August 2014 - 01:45 AM

and for god sake pls change the monk clothes he look like a priest.


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#22 Guigui

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 02:04 AM

Is it worth it refining armor sets to +20 ?
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#23 Greven79

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 02:50 AM

the armor reduction doesnt really mean take out all the defense rate, maybe make it abt 10% to 20%.

 

Sorry. I was mistaken how armor penetration actually works and therefore what you meant with quote: "30% ignore def". I thought you were talking about a 30% chance to ignore armor, but it's more like an automatic armor rip on a single attack, always reducing the armor by 30%.
 

However, against a highly armored target with 75% defense rate, a decrease to 50% would already double the damage you deal to this target.

 

then make the g-fist hit lesser dmg without FE. its like a win-win situation?

 

You got me wrong. I only guessed why the devs added the 'sphere' requirement to FE rather than G-Fst. I wouldn't mind, if someone would change this now. The ATK bonus is worth much less.


Edited by Greven79, 20 August 2014 - 02:56 AM.

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#24 3069121108025959500

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  • Server:Odin

Posted 20 August 2014 - 04:18 AM

sorry abt that what i really meant is armor reduction for G-fist. not totally ignore armor.

 

 

 

However, against a highly armored target with 75% defense rate, a decrease to 50% would already double the damage you deal to this target.

 

 

 

 

thats why i said 10 - 30% and thats probably of the 75% defense rate


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#25 3069121108025959500

3069121108025959500

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  • Playing:Ragnarok Online 2
  • Server:Odin

Posted 20 August 2014 - 04:43 AM

i am thinking abt evasion too. this skill is so useless that nobody takes it or nobody cares abt it.

since like we got no heal/hide, why not add movement speed to it for pvp purposes.

 

lvl 1 = 4% evasion + 8% movement

lvl 2 = 8% evasion + 12% movement

lvl 3 = 12% evasion + 16% movement

lvl 4 = 16% evasion + 20% movement

lvl 5 = 20% evasion + 24% movement

 

so atleast after using all our skill we can run around to safety.


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