Cleric requirement for CD

Full support clerics should be distributed evenly if the cleric requirement will not be implemented. This way, if a war is to start without a cleric, individuals may still have the opportunity to join the other side as a Full support to assist them.  What instead happens most of the time is that we are placed on the same exact side when we rejoin with a cleric; wasting both 3k energy and time. 

Edited by tENLAVUU, 21 August 2014 - 10:04 AM.

It is not a matter of not having FS clerics per each side.  Not even 3 months ago we had 3-4 FS clerics per side and CD was going often.  At one point a few months ago there were often 2 CDs going at the same time.  The cleric requirement was a real hindrance in getting CD to go.  It kept holding up the queue and then would glitch it.  And now with so many BC in the game it will be even more difficult.

I totally agree with what NamirBlades stated.  There are a lot of reasons why the FS cleric is not as much fun to play anymore.  In addition, over the last few years, the whole mentality of the players has changed.  When we used to do wars in TG or UW things were a lot difference.  The attitude of protecting the cleric was there.  People did not "have" to win and be the top person in kills, we often worked in teams.  The good players often went without buffs because they were just good and would rather stay in the fight then run around or sit around waiting for a cleric.  You could use a variety of things to heal yourself too.  The maps were big so the chances of having a cleric by your side was very uncertain, so people learned how to use pots.  Often we only got one or two buffs off to the mages before they ran in and AOEd, then died and did it again.  People actually used to PVP in TG without buffs and no pots and had honor when battling in 1v1 battles.  

So much of that has changed and I think it is partly do to the class balancing (which needed to be done IMO) but mostly due to the changes in attitudes and mentality of the players.  I understand that the buffs and heals have changed, but people with buffs were still not as strong as those without buffs, but the good players still figured out ways to get around it (run the enemies back to where other team mates are, cloak and run and come in from behind, etc).  Now people want to stand toe to toe and use no strategy.  In CD the map is a lot smaller and people have gotten used to hanging out by the cleric and being healed and buffed constantly so they can get the most kills and win.  That has also led to the mistreatment of the clerics.  Somehow players believe it is up to the cleric to follow them to keep them alive, even when they run away.  Or sacrifice ourselves by playing in charm gear so they can have +65 buffs, while we die.  And then feel it is their right to curse out the cleric for their ineptness. 

I have seen players not fight because I could not change into my charm gear to give them +65 buffs while we were in the middle of a war.  It has gotten ridiculous.  But I don't blame Rose as much as I do the mentality of the players.  My skills as a FS cleric are to buff and heal and as I can purify, etc.  The fighters job is to fight.  I never expect thank yous for doing my job as they don't either.  I am not doing anyone a special favor because I buff or heal them, it is my part of the team.  Unfortunately a lot of the fighters do not play as a team.  They are out for the most kills, plain and simple.  It is the same as those clerics who used to stand in the crystal and just heal it for points, disregarding the players on their teams.  A lame way to play.  Yet those same fighters that are out for themselves have no issues with giving the cleric crap.  And I have seen new clerics, just trying to learn how to do CD get constantly ridiculed and given so much crap that they will not play FS cleric anymore.  

I am not sure what the answer is to remedy this all.  Maybe if we allowed more food items in CD it would help some.  But I really think it will be hard to change player attitude.  Maybe if we got Akram Arena going it would help more people work as a team, the map is big.  But making the queue system have the requirement of FS clerics will definitely mess up CDs again.

It is not a matter of not having FS clerics per each side. Not even 3 months ago we had 3-4 FS clerics per side and CD was going often. At one point a few months ago there were often 2 CDs going at the same time. The cleric requirement was a real hindrance in getting CD to go. It kept holding up the queue and then would glitch it. And now with so many BC in the game it will be even more difficult.

I totally agree with what NamirBlades stated. There are a lot of reasons why the FS cleric is not as much fun to play anymore. In addition, over the last few years, the whole mentality of the players has changed. When we used to do wars in TG or UW things were a lot difference. The attitude of protecting the cleric was there. People did not "have" to win and be the top person in kills, we often worked in teams. The good players often went without buffs because they were just good and would rather stay in the fight then run around or sit around waiting for a cleric. You could use a variety of things to heal yourself too. The maps were big so the chances of having a cleric by your side was very uncertain, so people learned how to use pots. Often we only got one or two buffs off to the mages before they ran in and AOEd, then died and did it again. People actually used to PVP in TG without buffs and no pots and had honor when battling in 1v1 battles.

So much of that has changed and I think it is partly do to the class balancing (which needed to be done IMO) but mostly due to the changes in attitudes and mentality of the players. I understand that the buffs and heals have changed, but people with buffs were still not as strong as those without buffs, but the good players still figured out ways to get around it (run the enemies back to where other team mates are, cloak and run and come in from behind, etc). Now people want to stand toe to toe and use no strategy. In CD the map is a lot smaller and people have gotten used to hanging out by the cleric and being healed and buffed constantly so they can get the most kills and win. That has also led to the mistreatment of the clerics. Somehow players believe it is up to the cleric to follow them to keep them alive, even when they run away. Or sacrifice ourselves by playing in charm gear so they can have +65 buffs, while we die. And then feel it is their right to curse out the cleric for their ineptness.

I have seen players not fight because I could not change into my charm gear to give them +65 buffs while we were in the middle of a war. It has gotten ridiculous. But I don't blame Rose as much as I do the mentality of the players. My skills as a FS cleric are to buff and heal and as I can purify, etc. The fighters job is to fight. I never expect thank yous for doing my job as they don't either. I am not doing anyone a special favor because I buff or heal them, it is my part of the team. Unfortunately a lot of the fighters do not play as a team. They are out for the most kills, plain and simple. It is the same as those clerics who used to stand in the crystal and just heal it for points, disregarding the players on their teams. A lame way to play. Yet those same fighters that are out for themselves have no issues with giving the cleric crap. And I have seen new clerics, just trying to learn how to do CD get constantly ridiculed and given so much crap that they will not play FS cleric anymore.

I am not sure what the answer is to remedy this all. Maybe if we allowed more food items in CD it would help some. But I really think it will be hard to change player attitude. Maybe if we got Akram Arena going it would help more people work as a team, the map is big. But making the queue system have the requirement of FS clerics will definitely mess up CDs again.

I dont know if we all play the same game - i mean i play cleric and i think i am not that bad on it and i can say that playing clerics is freaking easy - it is of course not as easy as certain fighter classes but it is NOT hard to play and survive on a cleric....how can people still complain about clerics having a hard time...it is faceroll...
 

When i read stuff like this:

I, personally, think that the first step to address the problem is nerfing the raider and scout especially with their stealth and cloak skill because raider and scout are the number one reason for the cleric to die. With that done, the cleric will survive a little longer to support other. It will also force other classes to play closer to the cleric, thus protecting it at the same time. Finally, return the 1k of def, which was taken from the cleric from previous cleric nerf. Then we can wait and see thing play out. If none of the above suggestions are done, the problem, which we currently have, will be worse as time passes.

I seriously start puking - how can someone be that shrinked...the damage output of scouts and raiders is nothing compared to what champs (vs clerics especially sword champs) can do and asking for buffing clerics def just makes me laugh.

Even the by far best clerics on Leonis laugh about the current cleric balancing (*pointing finger at people like mom or clericEn*) ... and then I see you praying for brainless AoE battles (It will also force other classes to play closer to the cleric, thus protecting it at the same time.).

In fact the buffchanges nerfed the complete damageoutput of players while leaving cleric heals untouched....asking for a nerf of damageoutput just makes me laugh...please I have no idea who you are, ChampPower but you can only be a troll who knows nothing about playing Rose.

Yes Cleric is not as easy to play as for example GunBourgs

Yes people focus you

But if you really ask for buffing cleric you obviously don't know how to play Rose, because I can tell you Sir, Cleric is by far not too weak.

Back to the topic - Vu suggested the requirement to make CD/Arena Games more entertaining and he did not ask for what you start discussing now so silence THANKS KAY THANKS BYE if you have problems with current cleric situations go in the clerics section or purposals sections and make a post there asking for Immortal skills and Stealth for clerics so they can finally be totally godlike......

*points at the door for those kind of nonsense*

Edited by iMatt, 21 August 2014 - 01:32 PM.

I, personally, think that the first step to address the problem is nerfing the raider and scout especially with their stealth and cloak skill because raider and scout are the number one reason for the cleric to die. With that done, the cleric will survive a little longer to support other. It will also force other classes to play closer to the cleric, thus protecting it at the same time. Finally, return the 1k of def, which was taken from the cleric from previous cleric nerf. Then we can wait and see thing play out. If none of the above suggestions are done, the problem, which we currently have, will be worse as time passes.

Everyone is talking about how to buff the bow scout class ..... and raider I would say they are balanced, neither overpowerednor underpowered.


You never expect your teammate to protect you because no one can stop your enemies from attacking you, the only class who can somewhat protect you is the knight class. The only thing you can do is to give them your best buffs and pray they will wipe out the enemy as much as they can. A high CHA build is basically a pre-requisite, if you still have trouble in terms of survival, think of investing your skill build into getting 40SP on off-hand passive at the cost of not having bonfire/sala/mana flame. Another thing is if you are using chivalrous orlean set, then change to reinforced 30/8 set, it is just much better due to +90CHA, the 6K HP will just make up the difference in terms of defense/PvP resistance because wearing high CHA gear, your buff will be better.

There is a difference between attacker and defender, you use speed gear for attack and you use def/CHA gear for defend.



People stopped playing the cleric class in CD recently because being a cleric in CD, the responsiblity is just too big, it is a big factor to whether which side wins, too competitive in other words. Unlike in UW back in the days, the relatively weaker clerics can still sit in spawn to provide buffs for your fighters. Another reason is that this game just ran out of active players, you can barely start a CD, you just can't start akram arena at all. We just need to wait for a server merge which is still an unknown date, but I hope people can change tradition, making the AA as primary PvP map instead of the boring CD over and over again.

I agree with both iMatt and DestinyDeoxys. We should not do anything and keep what we have now, including the requirement of having cleric in war. It does not matter if the clerics continuously avoid war because of X,Y, and Z reasons. I cannot force you, and you cannot force me. Even if you change the requirement for war. If the clerics still avoid going to war, that change in requirement will not help you, and CD will be completely dead or rarely happen. Pointless discussion.

This sounds way better than what you posted before - in fact:

-as long as clerics influence Game Arena (PvP) games that mutch there should be a requirement/balance on this class (through the big influence of their heals plus their unique buffs)

-I can only understand why people avoid playing clerics - simple reason: it gets boring - you have basically no offensive influence and can't kill anything (and we all play pvp to defeat other players, don't we?)

-the requirement has to be there as long as clerics have more influence than fighters; means: if you have 10 fighters you lose vs 9 fighters and 1 cleric in 9 out of 10 matches - now people like leonis will point out that "class buffs" are stronger than cleric buffs, yaya that is right but certain buffs are not given by fighter-classes sutch as additional damage (*pokes here at mages*->Additional damage party buff suggestion?)

I can understand that Warpportal wants Clerics not being that influencial (and maybe upcoming class changes might offer this) but as long as clerics are that important they have to be restricted!

This sounds way better than what you posted before - in fact:

-as long as clerics influence Game Arena (PvP) games that mutch there should be a requirement/balance on this class (through the big influence of their heals plus their unique buffs)

-I can only understand why people avoid playing clerics - simple reason: it gets boring - you have basically no offensive influence and can't kill anything (and we all play pvp to defeat other players, don't we?)

-the requirement has to be there as long as clerics have more influence than fighters; means: if you have 10 fighters you lose vs 9 fighters and 1 cleric in 9 out of 10 matches - now people like leonis will point out that "class buffs" are stronger than cleric buffs, yaya that is right but certain buffs are not given by fighter-classes sutch as additional damage (*pokes here at mages*->Additional damage party buff suggestion?)

I can understand that Warpportal wants Clerics not being that influencial (and maybe upcoming class changes might offer this) but as long as clerics are that important they have to be restricted!

Edited by ChampPower, 21 August 2014 - 02:31 PM.

I don't think any of the classes should be nerfed at this point.  A few might need slight changes but in general I think the classes are reasonably well balanced.  I don't die that easily in CD and most of the clerics I play with do well too. I don't think we need more def or any of that.  All I was trying to state was the reasons, in my opinion, not as many clerics play CD now.  People keep saying we need less heals or less effective heals and that is the whole answer, but I don't really think that is it completely either.  And if our buffs are lowered some all over but still equal to buffs from the other classes there will not really be a difference.  And if you get rid of buffs all together from the cleric then it will be a worthless class to play.  

And I am not complaining that the team doesn't protect the cleric, I don't expect it anymore.  They used to, but not for awhile now.  But the people that are not protecting the cleric or even looking at what they cleric is trying to do, feel completely justified in yelling at that cleric for their death or lack of buffs.  I love when I am being attacked by 4 people, the rest of the fighting is going on a bit away from me, I am trying to heal myself as well as those fighting, and someone comes up and demands buffs.  But that is how people are now and why I always try to go in with at least one other person that I know for CD.  

I love playing FS cleric.  I have all other classes and really don't enjoy them as much.  Playing cleric keeps me busy and you do have to think some to play it to play it well.  Overall the FS cleric is a good class to play.

You guys are missing the point of this thread. I'm personally fine with the idea of continuing to keep a no cleric requirement; but as I said, another system should be implemented to alternate sides when individuals join as clerics. This way, if only one side has a cleric... then any cleric who joins later on will be placed on the opposing team by default in order to balance it out.

I think Vuu makes a valid suggestion. As for the people fighting for themselves, I have seen it also. Maybe if they remove the leaderboard, then people will start fighting as a team again.

Every time a cleric logouts and logs back in to rejoin CD in the hope of joining the other side who is missing a cleric, they end up in the same group that they left

Sometimes it doesn't just seem like they're being sorted at random and that it's bad luck for one team if they don't get a cleric, it seems as though they're purposely being placed all on one side -.-

Edited by Squipy, 22 August 2014 - 03:34 PM.

Every time a cleric logouts and logs back in to rejoin CD in the hope of joining the other side who is missing a cleric, they end up in the same group that they left

Sometimes it doesn't just seem like they're being sorted at random and that it's bad luck for one team if they don't get a cleric, it seems as though they're purposely being placed all on one side -.-

Edited by ChampPower, 22 August 2014 - 09:30 PM.

It wasn't full. If it was, they would not have bothered to switch in the first place.

Squipy is right, it happens all of the time.  One side has 3 clerics the other none.  Sides are not full, one of the clerics log out and rejoins and are back on the same side.  No idea why that happens so often. 

For what??

Game is almost DEAD haha ! !

It wasn't full. If it was, they would not have bothered to switch in the first place.

 grouping with 1 person and then queueing will make you change side.

if you solo queue you will just end up in the same group... it seems that that a certain group (defending or attcking) must be filled first before the other group will gain new members

so in a 7v7 game, one group must get to 10 members before the second group of 7 gets new members? o_O

I thought it worked that the first 7 people to join, got on the one team, then the rest are assigned the opposing team, until there is enough to start the game.

This is not the kind of CD i want to play !!!!

Gonna ask a "dumb" question to everyone responding here.

What is/are the problems caused by NOT having a cleric? 

and Can you counter it without one. 

if both sides have no cleric it is fine but as soon as 1 side has a cleric it is pretty mutch an auto win

Wow, that is a dumb question indeed.

I did try addressing queue balance awhile back. This is still how I think the q system should work:

I don't know why the cleric requirement was removed, you say people wanted more games I guess? but this results in with many games that are just completely one sided due to having no buffer. No cleric = gg = waste of time and points for losing side. Only people interested in farming points and smashing unbuffed people would want this. I'd rather not have a game pop at all if there is a 50/50 chance of auto losing since no cleric is present. Zoning in with NO cleric or a BC should not be about luck in the first place.

 

What should be done imo:

 

- Game Arena PvP (CD and Akram Arena specifically) should not pop unless the following conditions are met:

 

1. Number of players on each side is higher than 6-7

2. There needs to be at least ONE buff cleric on each side. BC is recognized as DPS by the system

3. In the event no buff clerics are present, the game will pop with none anyway. Everyone goes in with no cleric buffs.

4. If a cleric wants to join after a CD (which has no clerics) has started, another cleric must join the other team as well. Clerics are free to join during a game if there is already 1 on each team.

5. There should be no cap on the number of clerics on each team or any class for that matter.

 

This should balance games much better, and prevent boring one sided victories. While it may seem more restrictive on the cleric class, we all know how influential a single cleric is to a team. One cleric can carry a team easily due to how powerful buffs are in this game. And earning points on a cleric is incredibly easy compared to other classes - I think my points hover around 150-200 each proper game.

 

 

 

But food for thought here - what is the real underlying problem right now? The real problem is declining games and longer queue times. The various forces at hand that influence queues negatively (cleric balance included) are what need to be addressed - boosting population, incentive to play and removing barriers to gameplay. It doesn't matter how balanced a game is or how many cool features it has if there is noone left to play it.

Wow, that is a dumb question indeed.

 

I did try addressing queue balance awhile back. This is still how I think the q system should work:

 

 

 

But food for thought here - what is the real underlying problem right now? The real problem is declining games and longer queue times. The various forces at hand that influence queues negatively (cleric balance included) are what need to be addressed - boosting population, incentive to play and removing barriers to gameplay. It doesn't matter how balanced a game is or how many cool features it has if there is noone left to play it.

I fail to see that as a cause for clerics determining matches. That is after-all the topic at hand. Longer qeue times is a result* of either frustrations, lack of interest, lack of need, attempting qeues at the wrong timezones or even things like many kids going back to school and not having time to play as often. 

So again, why or what does a cleric bring to the table that insta-determines a win or loss.