#SaveCleric

please don't bring the discussion of TG wars in here because that's biased, involving all the stat buffs, boosters, arua blessing.

 

+1 for that, very true.

-you are supposed to use exalted gear or reinforced gear not any of those honor gear because none of the honor gear are defensive/supportive, the huge HP gauge on reinforced will help you a ton or the off-hand defense/magic defense will help you a ton to survive, so before you guys conclude cleric is weak or what, make sure you are not using that outdated chivalrous orlean set
 

I have to disagree only with 1 set. And only because it's really a close call between reinf, exalted or precious.

Depending on your build, you might actually be able to use that precious gear, mspeed, 30% stun resist, and 25% HP received goes a long way. The aspeed and pierce aren't exactly helpful, but those other statistics are amazing when combined with 50% mute resist and 30% stun resist.

I'll say it one more time, even as a cleric representative myself, I did not like how clerics being the center of the team at all. Though, there is just no way we can take away buffs from a cleric, people live with it since the very beginning of the game. PvP should be heavily dependent on teamwork communication, players reaction time, experience, determination, positioning and whether your team knows how to form a mutual cover composite. NOT how many (15)'s you have, NOT how many clerics your team have, NOT how long your cleric can tank, NOT how powerful your cleric heal is and more importantly NOT whether if your cleric has at least +60 buffs. (I've seen this bull where teammates just sit at spawn if they get +30 buffs)

 

^ This, this this this all over +1. Though I've said it in the past and been threatened to be lynched by the community, it's relieving to see someone ELSE post it first.

I agree, Clerics shouldn't be required or the 'center' of a team. if there's a center then it takes away from the entire team aspect anyway. if it all hangs on 1 char, then it's not what I'd call balanced.

PvP Should indeed be heavily dependent on those aspects, but that takes skill and effort, something I'm not 100% sure this community will embrace. Some definitely will, I've seen them state it publicly. 

Also you stated that "Though, there is just no way we can take away buffs from a cleric, people live with it since the very beginning of the game" And the sad part is, they already did for quite a large portion. The class buffs are most deifnitely superior 1:1 compared, the problem is, instead of lowering the cleric buffs and building the others, the just made the new class buffs that much stronger. 

I get it, they didn't want to 'take anything away' from the cleric, but in essence, they did. But doing it the way they chose to do it, it completely obliterated the buff mechanic. This game solely revolves around buffs. They're soooo strong. In most other games, public/team buffs are 3-5% max! Not 20-40% or more. The defining thing is that the classes in most other games are defined internally via their stacks, procs, mastery's or runes or whatever. And I think that's the problem, in truth at why PvP in this particular game will NEVER be balanced, not even close.

The other thing is that, Clerics are the only healer, and 90% of the classes don't have ANY self support, at all. One does, and it's ridiculously broken in PvP [Bloody Assault of course], the other is a straight joke [Champion Strike: 30% of the hit -and you are required to hit as there is no static value]. Knights absorption strike only works in PvM to any noticeable degree due to how much of a static HP amount they have, which leaves clerics. And the amount that they heal is completely disproportionate to damage in a 1:1 class comparison. My DPS chars cannot strike a 14k damage blow, under any circumstances in PvP. Yet, a cleric can not only heal 14k, it can do it in an AoE. 

To be fair, that's my honest opinion why Clerics are targeted, ridiculed and jumped at first sight by enemy teams and team members alike. Personally, I don't really care because they're broken. And they have too much impact. 

When 1 class is a make it or break it deal in a TEAM PvP match, something is wrong, DRASTICALLY wrong. 

Edited by Feuer, 29 March 2015 - 10:15 AM.

I'm not currently playing at this moment because there is zero PvP games going on Leonis server, so I have no clue how the damage output and PvP pace is, I have played two rounds of sikuku catacombs and I had no problem at all but I know it's only PvM, it doesn't reflect anything in PvP. I have not touched a single PvP game since the update, but based on my experience a fast pace PvP usually benefit ranged characters the most. With that being said, any ranged character can perform a kill alone with anything less than  or equal to 6 normal hits or 4 skills, that is considered overpowered to me. Any close range character can perform a kill alone with anything less than or equal to 4 normal hits or 3 skills, that is also considered overpowered to me. Oh, and please don't bring the discussion of TG wars in here because that's biased, involving all the stat buffs, boosters, arua blessing.

But here is the thing, just because you think damage output is high, does not mean we have to take off damage from everyone to compensate it, think outside of the box. And I'll have to see some video proof before I can tell whether cleric is fragile or not, if you say cleric is fragile, chances are mages/bow scouts will be as much fragile. We've been with this slow pace PvP for as long as since Union war left us, remember back in the Union war era, clerics were focusing on more mspeed gear than INT gear because everyone was run and heal mode. And I don't think everyone has adjusted to the new thing yet, the following few things you guys should change.


-you are supposed to have 40 SP invested into off-hand passive on your skill tree because you can't wear a sopdu shield anymore

-you are supposed to use exalted gear or reinforced gear not any of those honor gear because none of the honor gear are defensive/supportive, the huge HP gauge on reinforced will help you a ton or the off-hand defense/magic defense will help you a ton to survive, so before you guys conclude cleric is weak or what, make sure you are not using that outdated chivalrous orlean set

-you are supposed to use any substat which involves 50mspeed like 30CHA 50mspeed, 50crit 50mspeed, 20DEX 50mspeed because fast pace PvP is all about positioning, maneuvering, and teamwork

 

 

 

 

 

I'm a supporter of fast pace PvP, because that's what makes PvP challenging, competitive, strategic yet less pay to win, reason is because there is no way you can beat a fully (15) refined character with (10) gear in a slow pace PvP. But there is a fair chance that you can beat him if it is a fast pace PvP, I'm certainly not talking about 1 vs 1 head-on PvP I'm just referring to group PvP in general because 1 vs 1 head-on PvP is strictly (15) gear mandatory, the game is slowly evolving from a skill oriented game to a gear oriented game compare to what it was 8 years ago which is not good.

The whole PvP thing is like an arm wrestle, pure arm strength, no skill involved at all. It was so stupid that in order win a Crystal defender, it comes down to whichever team can take out the cleric the regen source, if your cleric d/c or if cleric refuse to buff or if cleric being dumb, you lose. A cleric will do so much to the team if PvP is slow but a cleric will do only a little if PvP is fast. But remember, dying fast is not a problem, the problem is at how this game currently still does not have a buffs-preserved-after-death system where you get to keep your buffs after death along with the 10 seconds death penalty cool down. (should be 30 seconds) It's just like how proc system works, you don't lose the buff even if you log out the game. I'm sure everyone is tired of having no buffs after being taken out by someone on the battlefield but sit at spawn not sure if you should regroup to your team or keep sitting at spawn to pray your whole teammates get wiped out as well. Ideally, when you die, you should have two spawn options, 1) spawn immediately with no buffs preserved 2) spawn 30 seconds later with buffs preserved


I'll say it one more time, even as a cleric representative myself, I did not like how clerics being the center of the team at all. Though, there is just no way we can take away buffs from a cleric, people live with it since the very beginning of the game. PvP should be heavily dependent on teamwork communication, players reaction time, experience, determination, positioning and whether your team knows how to form a mutual cover composite. NOT how many (15)'s you have, NOT how many clerics your team have, NOT how long your cleric can tank, NOT how powerful your cleric heal is and more importantly NOT whether if your cleric has at least +60 buffs. (I've seen this bull where teammates just sit at spawn if they get +30 buffs)

As you said you havent play PVP so, we can give you an example of how bad things are:

For the past few days in draconis me and LunaXavier have been testing different gears (no of course we did not try chiva since is totally useless or any other honor pvp gear) in different situations with "CD" style (self buffs, no goulash, no IM food or boosters), and the results where:

1st even when using full exalted (new gear +15) the pvp % defense is totally useless bcoz you will lack HP and even though enemies hit A LITTLE BIT LESS you die in seconds with no chance or survival, if you use reinforced you ofc have more hp but ur tank ability gets reduced so at the end the result is more or less the same for both sets.

2nd In current situations basically any decent player ofc with proper gear can kill a FS even when unbuffed. We tested each other throwing one of our pvp characters (such as an spear champ who was making over 6k dmg per skill on a fully buffed cleric on defensive gear (we consider defensive gear using either block, defense, hp or a combination of all those gears); we also used a BC that with mute and stuns could just kill a cleric in no time experiencing no difficulty; we tested as well with scouts that as we said multiply times before with the proper skill combo would end on a sure death for the cleric; and we tested with both a katar raider (that with the stun on the proper moment would kill the cleric before he even used a single skill) and a dual raider that was inflicting 9k dmg on the cleric with just 1 skill)

3rd then today we decided to test our clerics again in a real CD and everyone who was playing on that game will end up on the same conclusion right now dmg output was too OP for clerics in particular since just 1 stun aoe from a mage would mean instant kill for the enemy team since the other players would just hit who ever they see available and kill them in just 1 or 2 seconds including the FS which is suppose to be healing.

At the end our conclusion was that in order for FS cleric to survive since they lack on dodge passives (so dodge type cleric is not an option), defense pasives are really low, block rate was as well reduced, maybe it would be good to increase their defense passive and block rate back to how they were before and see how that works with the current dmg curve.

And for all of those crying about BC being op in case these changes are applied then just make like a restriction for those "passive boost" to just apply in case you got a heal from cleric tree to avoid BC from having insane dmg output combined with high ability to tank

I guess that is just up to GM to fix cleric so ppl can enjoy them again (since they are after all one of the most popular jobs)

About the vid proof, tomorrow with a little bit of luck we will have some CD runs and I will make sure I record it so you can see how bad it is for your self since as you said you cannot test it in your server.

-you are supposed to have 40 SP invested into off-hand passive on your skill tree because you can't wear a sopdu shield anymore

-you are supposed to use exalted gear or reinforced gear not any of those honor gear because none of the honor gear are defensive/supportive, the huge HP gauge on reinforced will help you a ton or the off-hand defense/magic defense will help you a ton to survive, so before you guys conclude cleric is weak or what, make sure you are not using that outdated chivalrous orlean set

-you are supposed to use any substat which involves 50mspeed like 30CHA 50mspeed, 50crit 50mspeed, 20DEX 50mspeed because fast pace PvP is all about positioning, maneuvering, and teamwork
 

 

I'm a supporter of fast pace PvP, because that's what makes PvP challenging, competitive, strategic yet less pay to win, reason is because there is no way you can beat a fully (15) refined character with (10) gear in a slow pace PvP. But there is a fair chance that you can beat him if it is a fast pace PvP, I'm certainly not talking about 1 vs 1 head-on PvP I'm just referring to group PvP in general because 1 vs 1 head-on PvP is strictly (15) gear mandatory, the game is slowly evolving from a skill oriented game to a gear oriented game compare to what it was 8 years ago which is not good.

 

Appreciated your suggestions, BUT this 40SP into all those off-hands, the block is extremely low for cleric after they got nerfed. The offhand def and mdef blocks are also extremely low for the incoming high damage output. The new exalted gears give extra offhand def and mdef. But have to give up the Huge HP that the reinforced gives. If you go to the HP side only,your block will be extremely low. If you mix 2 gears,u don't get anywhere either.

About the substats, its fast pace PvP use movespeed stats. We all know that.But consider this, How are you planning on running when you get one single stun along with 5k-8k crit damage from each char per second? Also,the block rate and offhands to block these crits are extremely low compared to the incoming damage. Besides, Cleric only has 20-26k hp , compare that with the incoming damage.
 

Teamwork also doesn't apply here, since clerics die before you can even perform a single teamwork. Its how squishy a cleric is. Totally useless to perform its job.

And I'm using +15 full reinforced set with damage reduction gem on chest (NOT +10.),with every single passive from valor shop except accuracy and +65 buff. Wasn't saying its perfect cleric,but at least it should be able to carry its role of healing but it just cannot. Chiva become garbage for FS. Everyone knows. So yeah,I believe you should just test this whole new thing out before you gave out old suggestions that fits with the old system before the patch. Still, thanks to you for bringing concerns to this thread. Clerics really need a fix in the role of pvp.

Edited by LunaXavier, 29 March 2015 - 10:46 AM.

As you said you havent play PVP so, we can give you an example of how bad things are:

For the past few days in draconis me and LunaXavier have been testing different gears (no of course we did not try chiva since is totally useless or any other honor pvp gear) in different situations with "CD" style (self buffs, no goulash, no IM food or boosters), and the results where:

1st even when using full exalted (new gear +15) the pvp % defense is totally useless bcoz you will lack HP and even though enemies hit A LITTLE BIT LESS you die in seconds with no chance or survival, if you use reinforced you ofc have more hp but ur tank ability gets reduced so at the end the result is more or less the same for both sets.

2nd In current situations basically any decent player ofc with proper gear can kill a FS even when unbuffed. We tested each other throwing one of our pvp characters (such as an spear champ who was making over 6k dmg per skill on a fully buffed cleric on defensive gear (we consider defensive gear using either block, defense, hp or a combination of all those gears); we also used a BC that with mute and stuns could just kill a cleric in no time experiencing no difficulty; we tested as well with scouts that as we said multiply times before with the proper skill combo would end on a sure death for the cleric; and we tested with both a katar raider (that with the stun on the proper moment would kill the cleric before he even used a single skill) and a dual raider that was inflicting 9k dmg on the cleric with just 1 skill)

3rd then today we decided to test our clerics again in a real CD and everyone who was playing on that game will end up on the same conclusion right now dmg output was too OP for clerics in particular since just 1 stun aoe from a mage would mean instant kill for the enemy team since the other players would just hit who ever they see available and kill them in just 1 or 2 seconds including the FS which is suppose to be healing.

 

At the end our conclusion was that in order for FS cleric to survive since they lack on dodge passives (so dodge type cleric is not an option), defense pasives are really low, block rate was as well reduced, maybe it would be good to increase their defense passive and block rate back to how they were before and see how that works with the current dmg curve.

And for all of those crying about BC being op in case these changes are applied then just make like a restriction for those "passive boost" to just apply in case you got a heal from cleric tree to avoid BC from having insane dmg output combined with high ability to tank

I guess that is just up to GM to fix cleric so ppl can enjoy them again (since they are after all one of the most popular jobs)

 

About the vid proof, tomorrow with a little bit of luck we will have some CD runs and I will make sure I record it so you can see how bad it is for your self since as you said you cannot test it in your server.

You mean this testing? Where [aside from a few random heals] you barely needed to try to survive? You didn't try to kite, you didn't try to sleep, and I know he was stat buffed making you take more damage. And no before you say "I was stat buffed too" stat buffs work offensively significantly more than defensively. 

And yes, I intentionally picked this music just to fit my mental image of you two. Cheers. 

Edited by Feuer, 29 March 2015 - 11:23 AM.

You mean this testing? Where [aside from a few random heals] you barely needed to try to survive? You didn't try to kite, you didn't try to sleep, and I know he was stat buffed making you take more damage. And no before you say "I was stat buffed too" stat buffs work offensively significantly more than defensively. 

 

 

And yes, I intentionally picked this music just to fit my mental image of you two. Cheers. 

Lol? I'm not even in there.  Think again before you post. And no one talking to you, you don't even play fs. Know your place. I'm talking to the Cleric reps.

I see they only tested with spear champ as a dps in the video. Not with the famous hawker class yet, and no harmful effects included. In other words, your sneaky video does prove only one single aspect relating spear as a dps. There are worse dps than spear..and worse situations. This dps without harmful effects is nothing for a cleric.

Edited by LunaXavier, 29 March 2015 - 11:58 AM.

Lol? I'm not even in there.  Think again before you post. And no one talking to you, you don't even play fs.

Hey, you posted from the wrong account bro. Either that or you have an identity crisis, cause I clearly stated it was Carlos and Panda. 

Edited by Feuer, 29 March 2015 - 11:45 AM.

Hey, you posted from the wrong account bro. Either that or you have an identity crisis, cause I clearly stated it was Carlos and Panda. 

I'm not a bro btw xD...A girl here. Meh

You mean this testing? Where [aside from a few random heals] you barely needed to try to survive? You didn't try to kite, you didn't try to sleep, and I know he was stat buffed making you take more damage. And no before you say "I was stat buffed too" stat buffs work offensively significantly more than defensively. 

 

 

And yes, I intentionally picked this music just to fit my mental image of you two. Cheers. 

HAHAHAHAHAHA you are such a dumb noob

Lets start:

1st miyuko just reseted to Spear and he was trying different types of gear and his dmg on me, basically meaning: that is not a reliable source of intel.

2nd he was not stat buffed and neither i was, we just had the same buff he get in our CD group, If we were oth on max stat buffs (that is what we call stat buffs, if you cannot afford it and call +60 dex a stat buff is not my problem)

3rd Sleep? y would i bother to use that skill? IF HE WAS TESTING DMG, it would jsut been dumb since i wanted him to see what he could do, but again you are just too dumb to realize that (and as a matter of fact not all clerics have sleep) 

4th as i said on my previous post I tested with LunaXavier not with miyuko, so if u were trying to proof anything you just failed terrible

5th you have no idea what set i was using or what he was using so you cannot make any conclussion from it

I would love to say this more politely but i just cant : "stfu noone cares about what you say, you dont even play cleric so gtfo" 

u for reals kid? i just changed to spear a few days ago, that was thee first time i actually buffed up and tested damage 

that was simply me testing the difference between chiv and lumi or a mix of the two as i wanted to see the dps of my normal hits and my aoes which i would later use in CD 

Roger that, Miyuko not a reliable source of intel. 

Also, you're lying, because He already HAD Aspeed buff, then you asked him and I quote "You want aspeed buff?" Now whyyeeee would you ask him that if he didn't need it I wonder.

"3rd Sleep? y would i bother to use that skill? IF HE WAS TESTING DMG, it would jsut been dumb since i wanted him to see what he could do"

Well, now you completely negating the defenses of your character, meaning you're manipulating the outcome be it intentional or not, you are. So, now I know that

Miyuko, not a reliable intel source, that you're a liar, and that you have absolutely no idea how to test anything. [For his sake [fighting CC as a spear] or yours [controlling enemies] 

I do believe I'm officially done with both of you. 

Edited by Feuer, 29 March 2015 - 12:13 PM.

u for reals kid? i just changed to spear a few days ago, that was thee first time i actually buffed up and tested damage 

 

that was simply me testing the difference between chiv and lumi or a mix of the two as i wanted to see the dps of my normal hits and my aoes which i would later use in CD 

Just ignore it he wants attention...

 and that you have absolutely no idea how to test anything. 

 

I do believe I'm officially done with both of you. 

Nor Do you know how to test a cleric? Do you even have a proper cleric to test?

Good thing you're done here. You got some wrong proof and suggestion anyway. not helping anything.

Cleric reps replies are way better

we werent testing cleric at that point, we were testing me, the champ

dont see how any of this information is relevant (and why test on a cleric? cause they can just heal, dont have to waste pots on another class)

Roger that, Miyuko not a reliable source of intel. 

Also, you're lying, because He already HAD Aspeed buff, then you asked him and I quote "You want aspeed buff?" Now whyyeeee would you ask him that if he didn't need it I wonder.

 

"3rd Sleep? y would i bother to use that skill? IF HE WAS TESTING DMG, it would jsut been dumb since i wanted him to see what he could do"

Well, now you completely negating the defenses of your character, meaning you're manipulating the outcome be it intentional or not, you are. So, now I know that

Miyuko, not a reliable intel source, that you're a liar, and that you have absolutely no idea how to test anything. [For his sake [fighting CC as a spear] or yours [controlling enemies] 

 

I do believe I'm officially done with both of you

 

Buffs where just running out, that was the main reason that we left TG, and also he just got buffs from a member of our CD group since our stats on CD are different than in TG, you wouldnt know since you do not play PvP. + that was just a little % of the conversation I was having on my group so you are just picking random quotes and using them to ur advantage with no actual background.

And no I do not have sleep on my cleric as I dont have stun or anything bcoz is totally useless due to the amount of range players and the current CD situation that you would know if once again you played CD, the fact that you say these things just prooves me right, that you have no intel on PvP situations and you are after all just a mere attention seeker.

You have no idea what builds/skills/stats or gear I used on my testing so you have no right to say anything at all, so remain your self from talking when you have literally 0 idea on what you are trying to talk about.

You mean this testing? Where [aside from a few random heals] you barely needed to try to survive? You didn't try to kite, you didn't try to sleep, and I know he was stat buffed making you take more damage. And no before you say "I was stat buffed too" stat buffs work offensively significantly more than defensively. 

 

 

And yes, I intentionally picked this music just to fit my mental image of you two. Cheers. 

Wait, I must have missed something, but I read "tommorow" and "CD".

You intentionally chose music with the intention to attempt riddiculing others? Wew.

Now to the important questions.. You knew much about their, I'd assume, testing session? You must have.. I mean, you went of making a video about it. Then it turns out.. I'm not sure if I'm just plain dumb here man cause I think of you as a rather clever guy.. But it turns out the testing session is about the Champion who just resetted. Now.. Ehm, you knew what sets they were testing? I mean, to make the comments in the video as you did you must know, intimately, what and how they were testing things. But, appearently.. you didn't?

@Carlos, out of curiosity, can you make an estimation about how much Feuer knew about the testing session? On a scale from 0-100 procent? I mean if I knew 50% I could understand.. maybe not.. but I could try to understand his reasoning for making a video to, attempt, riddiculing someone like this. Making a video about it, editing it, adding music to it. Did you talk ALOT in general chat for him to overhear?

Oh no, I said I was done with those two, not you Luna. I'll figure you out soon enough. 

Also, I could say clerics are in need of certain buffs and help, and people would say im stupid for it, it doesn't matter what I actually say, it's just the fact that it's me saying it that pisses them off. [you included it seems] and It's always been that way because I confront people, and weak bleeding hearts don't like to be confronted when they're trying to pull some BS over on someone else. 

Eric, step off and stop feeding the trolls. I never said it was to ridicule anyone so don't put words in my post you troll. All I said was it fits my mental image of them. Your ENTIRE post, is based off you assuming something and instigating a bigger fight then the one at hand. You're adding nothing to this conversation and in fact making it worse. 

Edited by Feuer, 29 March 2015 - 12:25 PM.

he knew nnothing, he was dead on the ground and i guess he was filming

 

@Carlos, out of curiosity, can you make an estimation about how much Feuer knew about the testing session? On a scale from 0-100 procent? I mean if I knew 50% I could understand.. maybe not.. but I could try to understand his reasoning for making a video to, attempt, riddiculing someone like this. Making a video about it, editing it, adding music to it. Did you talk ALOT in general chat for him to overhear?

Sure thing, I can tell you for sure that he just picked random quotes we saying on all chat that we didnt really care about, since we used the group chat for the important stuff, also there were clannies and friends on TG at the moment so we were as well talking to them on all chat so none would get left out ;P

Actually I pulled that text from the forum chat here, the "oh so important" chatter you submitted for public consumption and developer reading. So either the video text is me "lying" or you're lying on the forums, as I already pegged you for being. 

if u wanna know every fine detail, we were simulating CD situations, as we are friends we typically group together with our clanmates. 

since clerics cant be relied on, we have changed our characters to rely on buff pots and charm buffs, therefore we have purcahsed full charm sets for our scouts and gave them buffs.

SOOO when he said "you want atk spd?" it was because in cd, i would have access to my str buffs, and the buffs of his scout.

Edited by pandasoup23, 29 March 2015 - 12:30 PM.

Oh no, I said I was done with those two, not you Luna. I'll figure you out soon enough. 

Also, I could say clerics are in need of certain buffs and help, and people would say im stupid for it, it doesn't matter what I actually say, it's just the fact that it's me saying it that pisses them off. [you included it seems] and It's always been that way because I confront people, and weak bleeding hearts don't like to be confronted when they're trying to pull some BS over on someone else. 

 

Eric, step off and stop feeding the trolls. I never said it was to ridicule anyone so don't put words in my post you troll. All I said was it fits my mental image of them. Your ENTIRE post, is based off you assuming something and instigating a bigger fight then the one at hand. You're adding nothing to this conversation and in fact making it worse. 

Stop calling people trolls, You're the only troll here. You couldn't even test clerics yourself. And yet you plan to make sneaky videos to make fun of those who tried. SO let me ask you again, make yourself a proper CLERIC AND PROVE. Or you are just trolling in this thread. Which everyone already assumes you are.

Actually I pulled that text from the forum chat here, the "oh so important" chatter you submitted for public consumption and developer reading. So either the video text is me "lying" or you're lying on the forums, as I already pegged you for being. 

that video is no proof of a real CLERIC testing once again, you are just trying to use a lame video with no actual proof of anything your big stament for keeping FS cleric as the garbage they are today, I'm sorry but if you have no real proof of our testing you cant say ANYTHING about it, since you have no idea what we were doing.

Next time ask if we are testing cleric and i will be glad to show to your face the crap they are nowadays, dont be scare, I promise I wont kick your ass in 4 seconds with my unbuffed scout okay?

Making assumptions can be quite the embarrassing gamble. 

and Carlos, did you just say your cleric is no real cleric? that's terrible, why would you even post your opinions in this thread if you don't have a real cleric? that just doesn't make any sense now does it. 

"real cleric testing" - , he was referring to the validity of the testing process, not the character

stop reading into things...gawd dayum

Edited by VModCupcake, 29 March 2015 - 01:59 PM.

Making assumptions can be quite the embarrassing gamble. 

and Carlos, did you just say your cleric is no real cleric? that's terrible, why would you even post your opinions in this thread if you don't have a real cleric? that just doesn't make any sense now does it. 

Stop trying to manipulate my words, it clearly says a real CLERIC TESTING all together not just a real cleric.

what happened run out of ideas to proove ur invalid point so you have to ressort to manipulation? what will be next? you will just take a post delete words till it says something else?

¬¬