The present FS cleric discussion

I will definitely take Feuer's post into consideration as well as the others posted here.  This weekend, when I have more time, I will try to summarize everyone's opinions/suggestions into one post for Leo to read.  Thanks everyone for participating in the discussion and hopefully we can keep the ideas coming.  

I agree Salamander is a strong summon that is a helping hand to the Cleric in healing sitation and I agree with Borgahutt, some cleric are abusing this skill. They just randomly spam this and die and come back. I just use it if I see the group is going down and I can't keep up. Then I will spawn two.

 

Heals dosent need to be nered. I think they are totaly 100% fine at this time. They are not to OP and the heals aren't to low also.

 

Also keep in mind not to give bc better advantage while fixing Full Support. Hoping to see some good outcomes from this thread!

I don't understand why this guy and charas have gone against the intention of the post... And the view is clear that they don't play cleric...

I guess they think that if you have a cleric next to you - you
Should be able to do a 1k Heal and that's all...

People make up suggestions and say they are too good before even playing them and testing them out.

The only thing OP about clerics At the minute is the flames, and they need nerfing! Take the high percentage away and from getting multiple flames, people who play mainly offensive classes think it's our heals that are op, not at all, it's the flames trust me,

We obviously need something extra since the block and heal nerf and defence scaling to make other classes improve on the defensive side and damage output higher

NERF THE FLAMES ALOT, AND BRING A BUFF STATION TO GAME ARENAS, make stats more influential on block rate and block amount, it's so boring to see so many clerics now just spam flames and die, come back spam flames die....no skill or positioning required...

 

Somehow I find myself completely agreeing with you again. +1

@bendersmom

I just wanna drag something from another thread to here.

Phish suggested making a buff station in the pvp arenas. Just to make you aware of the thread incase you don't know about it.

I don't understand the amount of support for the buff system being the defining factor in winning or losing. 

I know about the buff stations and that is a solution to the PVP games, kind of.  But it doesn't help with the FS cleric overall in Rose.  

 

The buff system - if there were no buffs, then there would not really be a difference between having clerics to support or not.  If buffs are reduced, that makes no difference either really.  Even a 35% reduction in buff strength would do nothing, people would still expect the FS cleric to hold the buffs and a 65% buff advantage over no buffs is a big difference.  If the buffs are distributed between classes then the major thing that a cleric brings to the table is heals, just like a DPS class brings damage.  The buffs need to be redundant so that if one class is missing the buff will be available from another class.  But in reality, if one team does not have the accuracy buff and the other does, the game is not broken.  The team without may be at a disadvantage but with team work you would actually have a chance.  Without buffs vs with buffs are game breaking at the moment.

At least that is my view point atm.

Well I tried to make a summary of what we all discussed but there was a lot here.  I will ask Leo to read this thread and consider some of our ideas.  It is only really 2 pages of thoughts and comments so not too bad.

 

Thank you all for keeping it a reasonable discussion and for your ideas!

Yes for me now it's simply the lack of skill required to play cleric now that is disappointing, the simple fact that it's quite difficult to determine between a well played cleric and a not so well played as 90% of clerics now just spam flames and stand still and heal, no running to position in certain places to benefit fighters in different positions , no kiting to distract the other team members or to kite and time and position heals, just a spam fest of flames, and when you get a few of them on the same side, they just all huddle in the crystal spam fires and it's boring as hell,

Obviously the flames need to be nerfed big time however to compensate for the nerf on block etc for cleric and the increase in skill power for and damage output for offensive clqasses , something needs to be added in, and no not just a shoddy mana shield where I can run a little quicker or gain a 15% extra chance to block a tiny amount when damage is so high, also the mana shield on cleric is not too great due to out low mp pool and imo a skill I would like to see just for Mage to show more skill played on cleric ,

To be honest I bet something stupid will be made where the mp pool will be increased for cleric and it will be so boring as they will just spam that tons instead of flames - still making such boring and skill less gameplay

Edited by borgahutt, 26 May 2015 - 09:27 PM.

I don't think salamander flames are OP anymore... The damage output is so high right now that one aoe can wipe out every single flame. And by the time you recast a flame, 10 people will have died. The active heals are much more effective because they heal greater amounts instantaneously, while flames were only OP when players survived long enough to benefit from them. They don't need a nerf unless damage output or survivability changes. Otherwise, it seems like they're more of a necessity nowadays. 

I am on the bandwagon of damage being too high atm.  If the damage is fixed and people don't die in 3 shots then flames should be lowered.  Too many lazy clerics are just sitting in the xtal and keeping the group alive with flames (not saying you are Squipy).  They are not even working at being a cleric.  And if you have 2 FS clerics in a xtal with 8 flames and a few mages or other AOE classes no one can get near the flame.  I believe the flames are meant as support, but not as the major support for the team.

 

But I definitely agree that damage output or survivability need to be fixed.

The active heals are much more effective because they heal greater amounts instantaneously, while flames were only OP when players survived long enough to benefit from them.They don't need a nerf unless damage output or survivability changes. Otherwise, it seems like they're more of a necessity nowadays.

Yes the damage output overall is high however - they shouldn't be a necessity, it just causes for boring and dull gameplay and lack of skill from most clerics , not like before when positioning and timing of skills was key (when no one used flames and used the mana stun whatever it was called)

My thoughts so far:

To me, having so much depend on one class does not help out with team play or make much sense, even if that is always how Rose has been.  Don't get me wrong, I have always loved being able to help people out and be support, but at this point in the development of the game it seems to make class balancing harder and too many things like dungeons and PVP games depend on whether you have a FS cleric or not.  I think the cleric should contribute by healing and that should be their main function, along with their assigned buffs. . . 

 

. . .

 

After playing other games I believe that distributing the buffs to all classes (party buffs), which has kind of been done, but taking some away from the FS cleric might be a way to fix the boredom of playing FS cleric, the class imbalances and having everything depend on having a FS cleric in your group.  If you can be redundant in some of the buffs, for example give both bourgs and scouts an accuracy buff as well as another party buff, then you would not have to depend on each class being present to receive buffs.  The cleric would still retain some buffs, like int up, all stats up, hp/mp increase or magic defense, things that make sense for a cleric to have.  And then their main contribution to the groups would be heals.  Just like the main contribution from a knight is defense, or from a raider is stealth and speed for sneaking up on people.  I know that is not how Rose has always been, but in reality a lot of things have changed.  I think that we can still keep the essence of Rose.

 

well thought of! 

an attack with a magic defense debuff would be nice.

an option for a mute, sleep, stun with common cooldown,

with sleep cleric can run, with mute/stun attack is an option then run hahaha

 

perhaps, enhance damage and critical up should stay with the cleric

 

accuracy, con up, sen up to dealers (range increase - new buff ) - instead of the passive skill

aspd (haste) up, movement speed up, dodge up, dex up to hawkers

attack ups, def up, str up, to soldiers, hp recovery up (not to much though)

 

on heals, i think its leveled right.

i still need to learn this thing, got my cleric to max mostly in solo mode in hybrid build,

slow and difficult.

They have mdef down, they have 2 stuns, they have 2 sleeps, and 1 mute. What the hell more do you want? 

Possibly gio there didn't get or see those skills or use them

 

Mdef down is from the mana wave tree

Stun is from the single lightning tree, and its voltage jolt and the one in cleric tab is an aoe

Mute is after purify in cleric tab

Sleep there's single target and sleep cloud (aoe) + there's a pvm or pvp version of it which gives poison while they sleep.

 

Yeahhhhhhh look more 1st dude :v

Edited by KatsuraKujo, 01 June 2015 - 07:26 AM.

my bad. i totally forget those,

yeah i remember using them when i level solo my cleric specially voltage jolt, aoe stun.

hahaha 

I think the uselessness of a low level clerics heals should be addressed - maybe 
if healing rec = lvl 20 gap = 1k healed bonus; or something, incl self heals. -- 

Low level clerics, imo, should be severely wanted in parties, but the way it stands now, I had a low level cleric trying to help in OT, and it felt as though there wasn't even a cleric there helping even though I could tell they was seriously trying; -- 

Flames are now nerfed pretty hard, so hurray for the fact that dropping flames and then doing nothing isn't possible for a cleric anymore, thanks guys. 

Just a FYI, I took everyone's discussions/comments/ideas and presented them to Leo.  And no, I did not just give him my ideas.  We are not set up for a major overall atm for Clerics but he thought we had some good ideas to build on for the future.  When they are ready to work on the cleric again then we can add more for him to think about.  

 

Keep the discussion going!

I think the uselessness of a low level clerics heals should be addressed - maybe 
if healing rec = lvl 20 gap = 1k healed bonus; or something, incl self heals. -- 

Low level clerics, imo, should be severely wanted in parties, but the way it stands now, I had a low level cleric trying to help in OT, and it felt as though there wasn't even a cleric there helping even though I could tell they was seriously trying; -- 

Flames are now nerfed pretty hard, so hurray for the fact that dropping flames and then doing nothing isn't possible for a cleric anymore, thanks guys. 

Mind if you post some numbers here?

Lvl of the cleric you are lvling atm

def of the cleric

Cha "

Heals that are present (basically which healing skills you have atm)

lvl of flames

 

Just so i can try to mimic the same situation and experience it for myself. Not that i don't trust you but i might get an idea about how easy/hard it is when i experience it. Thx in advance

 

Just so i can try to mimic the same situation and experience it for myself. Not that i don't trust you but i might get an idea about how easy/hard it is when i experience it. Thx in advance

You can always make a lowbie cleric and test it yourself xD But I agree with Canehda, just by imagining about it. Lowbie clerics do not have that much sp to cover all the things that an FS cleric should have in the early gameplay, for example, mp rec, low mp,block/offhand, mp consumption,buff skills,heal skills, heal power. Which i think without them, it might be a rough road for them, Not sure what can be done for this,but surely any changes made for this will in turn affect pvp also.

You can always make a lowbie cleric and test it yourself xD But I agree with Canehda, just by imagining about it. Lowbie clerics do not have that much sp to cover all the things that an FS cleric should have in the early gameplay, for example, mp rec, low mp,block/offhand, mp consumption,buff skills,heal skills, heal power. Which i think without them, it might be a rough road for them, Not sure what can be done for this,but surely any changes made for this will in turn affect pvp also.

True :v

 

Also, the changes in pvp is what's affecting pvm in the 1st place, which is why we are trying to suggest stuff here that makes it fine for both pvm and pvp

Edited by KatsuraKujo, 04 June 2015 - 07:59 AM.

I have been playing more AA and CD lately and dungeons.  I know you don't want the FS cleric or mage and BC to have too much def or HP and I agree and understand that.  But one of the issues that a number of us are having, especially FS cleric, is mspd.  Or at least I sure am.  It is sure death to play in precious gear for a FS cleric.  I do have some max stats for mspd on some of my gear, and still I only have 660.  To be able to survive a bit in wars I can't put on more really.  But when we are running to the crystal we are always at the end of the pack.  Even knights are faster than most FS clerics.  Most FS clerics jump on mounts to try to keep up, but you can't heal or anything while on mount.  We are sitting ducks at the back of the pack for cloaked raiders to pick off.  And when we die (which is inevitable) we are so slow it is hard to get back to the group.  We have no defenses really but more base mspd would really help us.  

 

If you increased mspd for the cleric would it make a big difference in OPness for the BC or mage?  Is there a down side to a bit more mspd for the cleric?  

Movement speed would be nice, but I dont think we clerics have any extra sp to learn for mspd skills. Also Mages and BC must not benefit from this idea of new mspd skills for clerics.

 

I have a suggestion on honor gears for clerics. The luminous Set. This set gives almost all the bonus a cleric would need except the skill power. The set gives stats a cleric would need like mp, resistance, mp consumption, mp recovery. So, it would be nice if the set also gives heal power,not just skillpower. Or make the skill power affect on heal power or something.

I have been playing more AA and CD lately and dungeons.  I know you don't want the FS cleric or mage and BC to have too much def or HP and I agree and understand that.  But one of the issues that a number of us are having, especially FS cleric, is mspd.  Or at least I sure am.  It is sure death to play in precious gear for a FS cleric.  I do have some max stats for mspd on some of my gear, and still I only have 660.  To be able to survive a bit in wars I can't put on more really.  But when we are running to the crystal we are always at the end of the pack.  Even knights are faster than most FS clerics.  Most FS clerics jump on mounts to try to keep up, but you can't heal or anything while on mount.  We are sitting ducks at the back of the pack for cloaked raiders to pick off.  And when we die (which is inevitable) we are so slow it is hard to get back to the group.  We have no defenses really but more base mspd would really help us.  

 

If you increased mspd for the cleric would it make a big difference in OPness for the BC or mage?  Is there a down side to a bit more mspd for the cleric?  

 

 

Use Glorious instead of precious. Glorious gives dodge and even more mspeed I belive.

 

I agree with you. Cleric doesn't have a high movement speed and we are slow and that makes us last and a very easy target for raiders/scouts. I usually change into some speed gear (Not full movement speed gear), in the beginning to be able to follow my team. 

Movement speed would be nice, but I dont think we clerics have any extra sp to learn for mspd skills. Also Mages and BC must not benefit from this idea of new mspd skills for clerics.

 

I have a suggestion on honor gears for clerics. The luminous Set. This set gives almost all the bonus a cleric would need except the skill power. The set gives stats a cleric would need like mp, resistance, mp consumption, mp recovery. So, it would be nice if the set also gives heal power,not just skillpower. Or make the skill power affect on heal power or something.

 

About the mspeed, lets be honest anyone who played before the skill change should agree that playing mspeed cleric back then was the best and indeed fun, now clerics can barely move: low mspeed (even have negative mspeed stats on their gear... (-10 mspeed on shoes -.-")), those who use flames cant barely move away from them since they would vanish, and my personal favourite: CRITICAL LOCK -.-" Using speed set just makes you weak atm and in 1 stun they will catch and gang you...

 

Applying those changes to lumi could work, since it will allow you to sacrifice points and get larger amounts of mana, that would benefit clerics survival rate. (As well as including FS cleric into this new honor gears.. kind of left behind there making every set useless for us... ¬¬)

 

Also I totally agree on that, heals are a skill after all so they should gain benefits from that "skill power passive"

 

Another option could also improve/give better substats to exalted, since lets be real, you guys gave the heal power (which is obviously for FS clerics) to the chest on the exalted raging spitfire set. A set that gives 14% aspeed , dodge 153 and meele attack power 100 -.-" like come on... Instead of giving those pretty much useless substats for a FS you could of given them mspeed, mp recov, mp consumption, heal power, etc.

 

Going back to something I said before about the critical lock, I understand and support that cleric have their weakness ofc, and one of them are the criticals but from having a weakness to be totally useless bcoz ur chars shakes each time u get hit by a critical making skill casting impossible I would say is going a bit too far... 

 

And finally for those summoner clerics, one of my clerics is a summon type and I really enjoy playing it, but the problem is that atm the range you got to move from flames is just so small, move a few meters and boom they vanish and if you like to move around with your cleric that come as a HUGE problem, so what I though is increase the range of flames (not their healing range, but the range before they vanish) that way you could position flames strategely and create "healing areas" that could really come in handy and improve game play for those "summoner type"