With the rumors of BT nerf coming

is there any planned compensation for the people who invested a lot in +50/80 runes in their gears? such as rune removers or rune exchange stuff? 

And also, I feel that if bt will be nerfed to the ground, is there any logical reason why continue rolling a swordsman? with the current state of strength to damage proportion, damage of this class will be rock bottom. even crits would be mediocre.

Logical reason?  So you think it's logical that a tank class should do more damage than a dps class?  

If you start the class, with logic in mind, you will not need any compensation.  A swordsman class should get str and vit as their main stats.

If there will be compensation available, I would like to ask for compensation for all my time over a year of suffer from being treated unfairly as a melee dps class.  Because certain class can play our role better than us, making real melee dps classes not preferred in any situation such as party grind.

Edited by Cartian, 26 May 2015 - 12:33 PM.

is there any planned compensation for the people who invested a lot in +50/80 runes in their gears? such as rune removers or rune exchange stuff? 

 

And also, I feel that if bt will be nerfed to the ground, is there any logical reason why continue rolling a swordsman? with the current state of strength to damage proportion, damage of this class will be rock bottom. even crits would be mediocre.

First off, Why do you need compensation? the skill was broken after players can hit massive int on their characters. Lets put down the general outline for it

1 shot potential.

Multi 1 shot potential with shield boom and battle leap.

Damage reaching more than 100k

The fact that a TANK class can achieve super hard hitting hits WHILE still able to perform like a tank.

Damage is higher with HIGH end b/g/r runes and pvp runes

List goes on.

With these facts now posted all i can say is this.

If you and other players who re-rolled to swordsman and saw the insane and broken damage, utility of the class and decided to turn a blind eye and continue to Invest in a character with int runes, rune removes, rune punchers, Cash shop shopping and still expect to be COMPENSATED because you thought "lol dis wont change in anyway!!1" When the outcry was on the forums, in game and Via VCR chat.

Also with your last comment about even playing swordsman. You can eaisly go back to doing low damage and being a tank. Like the class is meant to be played.

Even if it might sound harsh...

But you really "own" nothing into a MMO Game. Your Pixel belong to the Publisher/Company.

And as a Game progress so does the Inflation. Items/Skills everything is bound to be replaced or rebuild someday.

Since there will always be a new Patch and new Items...But Nobody will ever force you to spent Money or Time for it.

Progression can feel like a act of violence, sometimes it can turn out to the worst and sometimes you learn to appreciate it over the Years.

But it`s never smart to doom the Project before it actually started. 

There will always be plenty of Time later on for that. 

Edited by Sandyman, 26 May 2015 - 01:41 PM.

1. You and Everyone knew the class and the skill was broken.

2. You chose to abuse it anyways, despite not needing it for PvE or even (fair) PvP.

Whatever you invested on that, it was your choice, and yours alone. I certainly doubt that a Swordman class without INT would be useless because you're a TANK, you don't even need high crits because you're not supposed to be a Damage Dealer class, you're supposed to hold threat with your threat modifiers, not with critical hits that are higher than those of a pure DPS class. And I'm almost pretty sure than in PVP your tank ability is enough.

I really want that the day comes when neither player can oneshot another, because a single hit PvP isn't PvP at all. It's plain old bullying.

is there any planned compensation for the people who invested a lot in +50/80 runes in their gears? such as rune removers or rune exchange stuff? 

 

And also, I feel that if bt will be nerfed to the ground, is there any logical reason why continue rolling a swordsman? with the current state of strength to damage proportion, damage of this class will be rock bottom. even crits would be mediocre.

Compensation? You invested in it, so deal with it. No ones gonna give free RR just because you feel cheated by BT nerfing. (maybe RR for Master points)

Saw the Nerf coming anyways, The devs made +50-80 int runes and forgot BT existed...Stupid decision as always (why am i not surprised)

Also Knight/Warriors were TANKS before Advent Of Valkyrie patch (at least knight was, Warrior was more of an offtank) there was no reason for us to have such a high burst damage to begin with :S although in PvE its awesome, PVP is so broken with it...

Played Warrior since release, will never stop playing it even with the BT nerf <3 (unless server dies ofc)

Edited by LeviRD, 26 May 2015 - 02:05 PM.

My question would be, is there any approximate date for this nerf? Heard of it for 2 weeks already, but seriously doubt that it would be in patchnotes this week.

i never said that BT was fair, never said that Tank Class should do more dmg than DPS class, the main reason for me accepting BT as it is is because I dont see the BT as broken as the priest unli stun and defense ignoring DOTs, yea sure it deals tons of damage, but as the rumors say that int will be useless for the class, I am mainly worried for the game, such a nerf on all the swordsman class will risk losing more players than gaining some. RO2 is not a new game where you could tell people "hey ragnarok online 2 is a cool game, come play here and keep it alive", no no no, gamer's view of ro2 is now "oh that sequel that failed miserably". Sure sure you guys feel like the need for such a thing, but guess what, there are players who only has their knight/warrior and nothing else. 

BT is not the only broken thing in the game, but nerfing it to the ground makes this tank class a lesser tank than a bear, we are not in the stage of time that has "tanks, dps, healers etc." as we all know, almost all classes are now able to tank and dps at the same time. 1shot is not the issue here as priest's 15k+ DOT, wizard/sorcs 20k DOT, is more or less just a different version of one shot. I wouldn't count assassin's CI/GT is a broken thing as that is the job description of an assassin, they couldn't do it if not out of hide anyway.

But back to topic, so you guys say if you are a guy who's just coming up with the final gear, DO NOT invest in int? is that the simple answer? and does anybody even have an estimated date for such a change?

Fixing BT ONLY will not solve anything. Everything must be reworked and i mean all classes, if BT as it right now gets nerfed which i dont really care. Then how about thief class that 1 shots anything out of hide and can run and slow with not all classes can catch up. How about Magic classes than stun locks and lets DOTs do the work for em while they kite and heal up melee classes.

A single fix for 1 class isnt enough and will do more harm than good. Its been repeated numerous times with ranger, priests and assasins. 

Anyways its been months since the last bugfix patch and they keep adding crap without totally fixing whats important and crucial.

Out of Range is here since the server opened and still here up till now and it keeps getting worse.

FPS fix/Server Optimization will only be a dream that will never be true.

So much more that needs to be adddressed and for some reason class balance keeps getting worse and worse.

Oh please, please tell me your name so you'll never have to be paired up with a lesser Beastmaster tank like me. Wouldn't want to drag you down.

People have pointed out the obvious flaws to your argument so I'll just simply add this: Rumours are just rumours. In this case, it's a rather baseless claim. Nothing has been set in stone so whoever your sources are needs to get their facts checked. We've (VCRs) reviewed the developers attempt at changing BT and we've pushed it back as unsatisfactory. We're obviously not going to make a class unplayable, so its absurd to think so. Now, so far no further plans have been made so therefore obviously no approximate date and no confirmed details. 

Whether BT will or will not use INT is obviously a big issue that we consider when reviewing things. Whether you continue to invest in INT is up to you as a player to use your judgment on. It's any good players responsibility to observe these things. Though really, with anything as broken as BT you should always expect a nerf in some manner. You always take a risk putting all your eggs in one basket, it's as simple as that. 

Edited by Arbalist, 26 May 2015 - 09:31 PM.

There's a slight misunderstanding there, as i have said, the class will become a lesser tank than a BM, therefore stating that BM is the best tank in the game right now.

That is exactly the point of this thread, to gather as much info as we can because it seems that for such a big plan for the game (class balance rework), there are very few informational posts around. And you say never make a class unplayable? unplayable in my dictionary is not 0%, it is when the class is unwanted by the norm. lets say for example that there are 5 classes in the game, a 15~25% distribution of players per class is what I can call "playable", and right now how many sorcs/wiz/crecs/rogue do we see around? exactly! Majority are opting for other classes because those classes are unplayable.

But hey, we all get the point, im not here to open up an argument or whatever,  I posted it to gather info, nothing more, nothing less. 

There's a slight misunderstanding there, as i have said, the class will become a lesser tank than a BM, therefore stating that BM is the best tank in the game right now.

That is exactly the point of this thread, to gather as much info as we can because it seems that for such a big plan for the game (class balance rework), there are very few informational posts around. And you say never make a class unplayable? unplayable in my dictionary is not 0%, it is when the class is unwanted by the norm. lets say for example that there are 5 classes in the game, a 15~25% distribution of players per class is what I can call "playable", and right now how many sorcs/wiz/crecs/rogue do we see around? exactly! Majority are opting for other classes because those classes are unplayable.

But hey, we all get the point, im not here to open up an argument or whatever, I posted it to gather info, nothing more, nothing less.

I'd still go for a BM to tank a main guardian or FP over a knight anyday with the current meta. 

and yep, as I have said, unplayable is not 0%. My very close friend mained a sorc as well, now the sorc is just being logged in just to "hangout", in other words, after getting all the eddga and costumes that he needs and around 60+% of reduction in pvp, he still felt it is way behind other "playable" classes.

just coz "playable" classes unbalanced and "unplayable" balanced comparing to "playable"

hate to admit it, but that's the sad truth right now. hahaha

If they didn't compensate players after AGI rune became obsolete I don't see why they will compensate after whatever it's that going to happen to Battle Tactic.

 

But agi pretty much is better rather than str for warriors right? I mean, how can they be obsolete?

Oh boy. So many things to comment...

warriors supposed to be sub-tanks or dps, knights main _tanks_ since they have two(+ one from swordman class) skills that increases threat and two skills to decrease dmg (+ shield) and bm only have two skills that increase threat and one skill to decrease dmg (well higher hp)

The number of threat-increasing skills is not a good argument whether a class is ought to be a main tank or 'sub-tank' (I'm not even sure if the latter exists or if it's even considered a separate role/term).

The reason is quite simple: Damage = Threat. So if a class - f.e. a Warrior - deals more damage (higher ATK per STR, higher weapon damage), it already has a higher base-threat and therefore no need for threat-increasing skills.

Some VCRs tested the threat with the proposed BT-variant and it turned out that all the tanks were pretty close. Although it was done without hones, etc., the Warrior & monk would have had the highest threat (in Ymir Form) or a bit below BMs. The knight had the lowest threat in this test, but that's due to the nature of the BT (boosting only the first hit per skill use), the missing threat bonus from Shield Boomerang (was not used in this first test) and the restriction of the equipment // improvements (hones, seeds,etc.)... so it's higher with the - quote: "right build" (or simply by using off-hand seeds).

About the damage reduction on the Knight's shield:

It's a compensation because the shield doesn't grant the same percentual defense bonus it did pre-AoV (it once increased the total def by ~45%). So it's now a Defender skill 'for free'...

And of course, the BT test wasn't only a 'first view' and didn't consider things like survivability. The latter is more difficult to test and to judge. But it should be obvious that BM outbest any other tank class in regard of self-heals. This class can easily restore 90%+ of it's total HP every 10~20sec... which is still worse than a Highness Heal or purple pot, but significantly better than most other forms of heals.

i never said that BT was fair, never said that Tank Class should do more dmg than DPS class, the main reason for me accepting BT as it is is because I dont see the BT as broken as the priest unli stun and defense ignoring DOTs

 

yea sure it deals tons of damage, but as the rumors say that int will be useless for the class, I am mainly worried for the game, such a nerf on all the swordsman class will risk losing more players than gaining some. RO2 is not a new game where you could tell people "hey ragnarok online 2 is a cool game, come play here and keep it alive", no no no, gamer's view of ro2 is now "oh that sequel that failed miserably". Sure sure you guys feel like the need for such a thing, but guess what, there are players who only has their knight/warrior and nothing else. 

BT is not the only broken thing in the game, but nerfing it to the ground makes this tank class a lesser tank than a bear, we are not in the stage of time that has "tanks, dps, healers etc." as we all know, almost all classes are now able to tank and dps at the same time. 1shot is not the issue here as priest's 15k+ DOT, wizard/sorcs 20k DOT, is more or less just a different version of one shot. I wouldn't count assassin's CI/GT is a broken thing as that is the job description of an assassin, they couldn't do it if not out of hide anyway.

 

But back to topic, so you guys say if you are a guy who's just coming up with the final gear, DO NOT invest in int? is that the simple answer? and does anybody even have an estimated date for such a change?

First of all: Why do some players consider the priest stuns to be the worst thing out there? What is worse: An assassin dealing 100k instantaneously out of hide or a Priest using DoTs to achieve the same after several seconds, stunning the target in the meanwhile? Both ways end up deadly, but the former is still faster.

Second of all, nerfing Battle Tactics won't make the Warrior class useless. Even without that skill, Swordsmen still deal a lot of damage. And the currently proposed BT-variant doesn't nerf the PvP capability as much as it does in regard of PvE. An assured triple-damage Rage Strike would still be pretty-damn deadly and a triple-damage Shield Boomerang as effective as a non-crit. Shield Cannon against 10 targets at 20m range (378% x3 = 1134% damage).

But about BMs:

It's just natural that ideas for class changes start with the most important thing: damage per strike. That's why Battle Tactics was the most obvious target, followed by Hiding/Camouflage. But that doesn't mean that the changes end there or that other concerns are left aside.

But I already started multiple discussions about how to assure that beastmasters won't end up as 'better tanks', should BT be nerfed.

It's mostly about fair balance between defense-&-hitpoint bonuses, possible AoE damage/threat differences and about heal skills and skill build inbalances. So rest asure, it's not that the VCRs are just against Warriors or Knights,... or just against BT. I'm already the proof that this isn't the case..

And due to the fact that possible class changes are still months away, there's no reason to talk about compensations today. To do so would require us (the VCRs) to know the final impact. If multiple classes are nerfed, it might require a completely different form of compensation, right? So it's just delayed, but surely not forgotten.

Finally about 'nerfing swordsmen would cause players to leave':

Sadly, most players leave without stating their reasons. So you can't say for sure how many players left the game already due to the current class inbalances (including BT). But it's still possible to recognize a trend and to foretell the future, if nothing changes at all. Sure, a change always imposes the risk to make things worse or to fasten the disaster, but also offers the possibility to invert the trend... And I still believes there's a small hope the latter happens... although the odds aren't that great.

Edited by Greven79, 27 May 2015 - 02:22 PM.

Not sure why you are talking about knight tanking here, but even as a newcomer to AoS I will assure you that it is pretty okay, with the correct build, kudos to KuroiKoneko. Stating that warriors are better tanks than knights is useless, BMs are not doing huge numbers either, but providing good threat generation. And if OP is scared that without broken BT he wouldn't be able to tank, well sir, maybe it's time to give up on your full dps hybrid build with 1/5 in Aura Armor and invest in all these sweet damage decrease skills? You got 3 and a good self-heal.
Or provide yourself with a better gear, or refine your current. There are examples of not even tanking classes doing it, via luring + 10000chainstuns and slows. It's working perfectly fine.

And yeah, as many people stated, you can't say that because you are angry, lots of people would be angry and leave. You can, for example, laugh at me because I recently joined AoV as a "broken swordman", but it was my passion to play a videogame as a shield-wearing tank. And even I see a tendency of current meta around DoTs, chainstuns and DPS instead of original tank-healer-dps impact on the game, where my beloved rogues and assaassins are not performing that well, I know that they are pretty good in PvP.

TLDR: People are so chilled out with Cazar-from-MasteryPoints, that they can't even consider going back to their original stats, or getting nerfs on stat formulas or gear amount of stats. Imagine that BT will be simply nerfed from +0.2% to 0.1%, and the amount of int in the next gear set will be insignificant. Bingo, easy fix of the problem

And for PVE... Well, it is obvious(for myself, because I'm pretty fresh and have faith in developers), that the next patch would either

a)change armor penetration or defense-per-level formula that drops all ATK-based classes down

b)Introduce magical defense or cut down DoT potential damage

c)rework several abilities AoE abilities for thieves, and mages, for the price of cutting down or changing the single target one shot potential in PVP (I'm not talking about swordmen intentionally, because removing current BT will decrease the chance of being one-shotted via aoe ability by accident, like ShieldBoom, but adding it's current version would be a suicide again)

d)screw all that and add new costumes (<Win-Win option)

Edited by Pavelmimimi, 27 May 2015 - 04:15 PM.

First of all: Why do some players consider the priest stuns to be the worst thing out there? What is worse: An assassin dealing 100k instantaneously out of hide or a Priest using DoTs to achieve the same after several seconds, stunning the target in the meanwhile? Both ways end up deadly, but the former is still faster.

 

And due to the fact that possible class changes are still months away, there's no reason to talk about compensations today. To do so would require us (the VCRs) to know the final impact. If multiple classes are nerfed, it might require a completely different form of compensation, right? So it's just delayed, but surely not forgotten.

 

Finally about 'nerfing swordsmen would cause players to leave':

Sadly, most players leave without stating their reasons. So you can't say for sure how many players left the game already due to the current class inbalances (including BT). But it's still possible to recognize a trend and to foretell the future, if nothing changes at all. Sure, a change always imposes the risk to make things worse or to fasten the disaster, but also offers the possibility to invert the trend... And I still believes there's a small hope the latter happens... although the odds aren't that great.

Because an assassin/rogues job is to kill out of hide and get lost (i am not saying it is not broken but imho is understandable because assassins would be then killed right after he shows himself), this is nowhere near a significant thing in WOE where as a priest can defend the fort/castle indefinitely with its unli chain stuns, lets not talk about 1 vs 100 here because that doesnt happen, but a priest being able to make anyone (maximum of 10 in any single moment) useless for 15 secs is the most broken thing. 

Not sure why you are talking about knight tanking here, but even as a newcomer to AoS I will assure you that it is pretty okay, with the correct build, kudos to KuroiKoneko. Stating that warriors are better tanks than knights is useless, BMs are not doing huge numbers either, but providing good threat generation. And if OP is scared that without broken BT he wouldn't be able to tank, well sir, maybe it's time to give up on your full dps hybrid build with 1/5 in Aura Armor and invest in all these sweet damage decrease skills? You got 3 and a good self-heal.
Or provide yourself with a better gear, or refine your current. There are examples of not even tanking classes doing it, via luring + 10000chainstuns and slows. It's working perfectly fine.

 

And yeah, as many people stated, you can't say that because you are angry, lots of people would be angry and leave. You can, for example, laugh at me because I recently joined AoV as a "broken swordman", but it was my passion to play a videogame as a shield-wearing tank. And even I see a tendency of current meta around DoTs, chainstuns and DPS instead of original tank-healer-dps impact on the game, where my beloved rogues and assaassins are not performing that well, I know that they are pretty good in PvP.

 

TLDR: People are so chilled out with Cazar-from-MasteryPoints, that they can't even consider going back to their original stats, or getting nerfs on stat formulas or gear amount of stats. Imagine that BT will be simply nerfed from +0.2% to 0.1%, and the amount of int in the next gear set will be insignificant. Bingo, easy fix of the problem

 

And for PVE... Well, it is obvious(for myself, because I'm pretty fresh and have faith in developers), that the next patch would either

a)change armor penetration or defense-per-level formula that drops all ATK-based classes down

b)Introduce magical defense or cut down DoT potential damage

c)rework several abilities AoE abilities for thieves, and mages, for the price of cutting down or changing the single target one shot potential in PVP (I'm not talking about swordmen intentionally, because removing current BT will decrease the chance of being one-shotted via aoe ability by accident, like ShieldBoom, but adding it's current version would be a suicide again)

d)screw all that and add new costumes (<Win-Win option)

im not really sure why your post seemed to me that there is an issue on threat generation, and also I can assure you that my warrior has 5/5 aura armor 5/5 parry and 5/5 endure if that helps. Tanking is NOT the reason for my post, THREAT generation is not the reason for my post, the only reason I asked such a query is with the amount of people playing as knights and warriors using +50/80 int runes, do they have a PLAN to compensate those players in anyway? that is the main point of the post, nothing else. I agreed since the beginning that BT needs a rework/nerf of somesort because it is easily more broken than the one hit capability of the thief class. 

also if anyone thinks that i posted this because I have ALREADY invested in int runes, you are greatly mistaken, i posted this to gather info if it is still worth it at this stage of the game where a nerf rumors is flying around. but as greven already stated,

And due to the fact that possible class changes are still months away, there's no reason to talk about compensations today. To do so would require us (the VCRs) to know the final impact. If multiple classes are nerfed, it might require a completely different form of compensation, right? So it's just delayed, but surely not forgotten.

 

this could be the single best answer I could ask for.

So you are saying that if a priest clicks an NPC outside and spawns in their fort while enemy guild(maximum 10ppl) is breaking their emp, then the priest shows up and stuns them until forever, the enemy guild is incompetent. Okay then.. I dont know how the most skill player can get away from that but I'll take your word for it.

I am amazed of how much you think that priest is balanced.