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Discussion: Removing the Gate of Prontera and expanding the Emp's radius where you can build weapons


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#1 Rhein14

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 06:10 PM

Hello RO2 Community!

 

WOE is playing a big part of the game. We join guild to enjoy the game and with this we can build up strategies strong connection within our guild. WOE is a friendly match between guilds to enjoy the game to the fullest, to share bonds and fight as a team. I'd like to help on improving this game, to make other guilds (Big/ small) to participate twice a week event that last for an hour. A lot of us know that Prontera has a good system in building up defense on attacking guild(s) that is too good it makes other guild lose hope to destroy the main gate and just quit on PVP-ing or attend WOE. So I'm suggesting on removing of the main gate in Prontera. I'd like to know your suggestions regarding this matter. I'm open to suggestions just leave your comments below. Your suggestions and comments are important to us. 

 

Thank you.

 

VCR

 

Rules:

  1.  Don't bring up guild names.
  2.  No trash talking.
  3.  No Guild drama.

 

 

  • Comment:    Yes, I agree on removal of Prontera’s gate because ………………………….…

                    No, I don’t agree on removal of Prontera’s gate because ……………………....

  • Emp’s Radius: 10 meters away from the emp.

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#2 flukeSG2

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 06:54 PM


  • Comment:    Yes, I agree on removal of Prontera’s gate because ………………………….…

                    No, I don’t agree on removal of Prontera’s gate because ……………………....

  • Emp’s Radius: 10 meters away from the emp.

 

 

Back when Morroc WoE map wasn't around, I wouldn't have a problem with there being a main gate.  I'm either for removing the Prontera Main Gate, or adding another level of defense into Morroc map just like Prontera.  Removing the main gate seems the easier of the two options.

 

I'm going to assume "Emp's Radius" is in regards to how closely you can build Siege weapons to them.  10m is an acceptable amount of distance.

 

I'd like to re-suggest something I've said before, actually three suggestions.  Sort of an alternative to the removal of the main gate.  I suggest giving Base of Advancement a Flying Kafra to the owner that takes you across the main gate.  That would give some purpose back to ownership and might bring some of the fight there and spread it out a little more.  In addition, I think the Bases should provide buffs to the owners at the end of woe much like forts and castles.  The buffs would be another step down from a fort buff, much like a fort is a step down from castle.  In addition, I think a single base should be added to Morroc WoE at or around Ceres location in the upper middle part of the map.

 

Edit: I've gone ahead and removed my comments because it's clear there is a lack of understanding which is why we have to keep repeating ourselves after debunking arguments.  It's like talking to a 5 year old when they ask "why" it never ends.  Cartian has address EVERY point brought up with great accuracy.  I have nothing more to say.


Edited by flukeSG2, 23 December 2015 - 02:44 PM.

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#3 Cartian

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Posted 20 December 2015 - 12:44 PM

Emp's radius: No comment, I feel the latest fix is doing a good job so far.  I haven't seen a lot of seige stacking since they are now checked server side.  It is already much better than what we had when it was abusable. I couldn't ask for more.

 

Removing the main gate in Prontera WoE map: Yes, I agree.  Because of everything I will say below.
 
At the current state of WoE: In Prontrea, if the castle, east fort and west fort are hold by the same guild/alliance, defending that main gate means defending 2 forts and 1 castle.  In comparison to Morroc WoE map, forts in morroc are reachable by anybody.  There is no such advantage even when one guild/alliance holds every forts and castle in Morroc.  Why does Prontera get to have the advantage?
 
I can understand when Prontera was the only WoE map available, the main gate being there was not a problem because every guilds that participate in WoE will be on that one map.  If guilds don't work together to take down the main gate they will be all left with South fort to compete.  So it was the best interest for everyone to take down the main gate when there wasn't another map available.

Now, we have Morroc WoE available which opens up more options for forts and castles for guilds.  This also means attacking guilds can be spread between two maps.  The Prontera main gate lost its important status for being "the only option for more forts".  It often stay closed and barely touched for the whole WoE hour.  While guilds take forts/castle in Morroc ignore Prontera completely because the main gate is shutting out 3/4 of the map's opportunity behind it.
 
Just look at the huge difference in terms of attacking/defending difficulties if you compare the two WoE maps.  Why would attackers want to take the harder way out when there is an easier way.  We need to adjust the two WoE maps to make them fair to both the attackers and defenders in order to make both maps active during WoE.  

Orbs
 
Morroc WoE map have 2 orbs to give attacking guilds a chance to open the back gates that lead directly into the castle.  Recalling next to castle emp is available after orb is turned.  Making it extra easy to take castle and extra difficult to defend a castle that has a gate open to welcome recallers 90% of the time.
 
Prontera only have 1 orb and that only open the main gate which is at a distance away from castle.  Attacking guild still have to DPS the castle gates in order to get to the castle emp.
 
Given the limited time we have in WoE, opening the Prontrea main gate and then dps down the castle gate will easily take half the WoE time unless undefended.  While there isn't much time needed to open the back gates in Morroc which lead directly to the castle emp, who wouldn't think Morroc is easier?

Castle Gates
 
Morroc Castle have 3 castle gates where two can be opened by orbs.  The main castle gate is not far from the map entrance (from point 2).
 
Prontera Castle have 2 gates, none of which can be opened by an orb.
 
Again, Morroc castle is much more accessible by any guild weak or strong.

Map & Geography
 
Morroc: There is no main gate in the Morroc WoE map.  The castle front gate that is not openable by orbs can be attacked from all directions.  There is no chok point to stop attackers at a narrow spot except at the spawn point (spawn camping is not allowed!).  It gives a lot of space for attackers to setup what is necessary to take down the front castle gate.
 
Prontera: The castle and two forts are behind a main gate.  The main gate is far from the map entrance and is located at a chok point.  Attacking guilds don't have space to fall behind on or create a setup area because the main gate is facing the the hills/mountains.  The very narrow space in front of the gate make defending guilds can heavily focus on seiging that area and push any attacking guild back to the two sides of the hills.  
 
The two sides of the hills leading to the main gate is another chok point where everyone want to attack the main gate (or go to south fort to turn orb) have to walk through those narrow spaces.  Again this is disadvantageous to any attackers because no matter how many people they bring, they have to get them pass the chok points which are always being motar spammed and seige spammed (catapult created behind the main gate can hit that far).
 
Then when it is in front of the Prontera castle gate, the same situationa again, narrow space leaving attackers little space to run around to dodge seige spam.  One side of each of the Prontera castle gates are against the hills.
 
To illustrate the open area of each map in front of each gate, look at the red area on the picture below.  It is not hard to see why Prontera is easier to defend and harder to get taken:
 
Ail9KSP.jpg
 
 
To sum it up, a guild or an alliance holding all of morroc forts and castles will have to protect up to 5 spots to secure their castle:
 
1. protect the orb at west fort.
2. protect the orb at east fort.
3. protect the castle front gate.
4. protect the east back gate.
5. protect the west back gate.
 
Any of the above protection break will allow attacker direct access into the castle.
 
 
A guild or an alliance holding all of prontera forts and castles will split into 2 forces:
 
1. protect the orb at south fort.
2. protect the main gate.
 
If any of the above protection break, there is also the left and right castle gates to be the second line of defense.
 
Lastly

The design of the Prontera WoE map, to my understanding, was made for Server vs Castle Owner.  So it only make sense BACK IN THE DAYS to give attackers a hard time because it was expected that attackers will out-number defenders.  If we think back in 2013, there was only Prontera castle and the map was built around that idea, 1 castle nothing else.  Then later 3 forts were added to the map and unfortunately 2 of them happened to be behind the main gate.  That wasn't too thoughtful and we are now facing the consequence.  
 
The main gate must have designed to protect the castle and was never meant to protect the forts that were added later.  This is the time for the devs to re-visit the difficulties of Prontera WoE map, reconsider and balance the various features.  Keeping in mind there are forts now and that there is another WoE map people can go to, Prontera WoE isn't the only game in town.
 
In addition to removing the Prontrea main gate, I would also suggest removing the two orbs that opens the Morroc castle back gates.  It is part of my view of level the playing field between Prontera and Morroc WoE maps.  With those two orbs there, we never seen anybody try to attack the back gates of the Morroc castle.  The castle is too accessible, it make any defense at the front gate a waste of effort.  Compare to Prontera castle, the castle gates must be DPSed down, they shouldn't be opened by orbs.

 


Edited by Cartian, 20 December 2015 - 12:47 PM.

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#4 7843140731162112220

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Posted 20 December 2015 - 06:31 PM

Those who joined woe for last 2 times will know that prontera gate can be opened easily now, so why bother removing it if it can be opened even with less known guild - by orb.

Edited by 7843140731162112220, 20 December 2015 - 06:31 PM.

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#5 donchan

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Posted 20 December 2015 - 06:45 PM

Those who joined woe for last 2 times will know that prontera gate can be opened easily now, so why bother removing it if it can be opened even with less known guild - by orb.


The principal of the matter is that the gate is there in the first place, not if it's easy or hard to open. If a guild or an alliance has control of the whole map, the top forts and castle requires absolutely no defense. I've been on both ends, attacking and defending, and Prontera's main gate is absolutely ridiculous. Also not to mention, the last WoE the guild that opened the gate opened it via an exploit, it wasn't legit lol
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#6 Lenalee18

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Posted 20 December 2015 - 08:05 PM

I dont see a problem with the gate its not like its impossible to open and it provides a challenge


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#7 xkazehanax

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Posted 20 December 2015 - 10:46 PM

 

Emp's radius: No comment, I feel the latest fix is doing a good job so far.  I haven't seen a lot of seige stacking since they are now checked server side.  It is already much better than what we had when it was abusable. I couldn't ask for more.

 

Removing the main gate in Prontera WoE map: Yes, I agree.  Because of everything I will say below.
 
At the current state of WoE: In Prontrea, if the castle, east fort and west fort are hold by the same guild/alliance, defending that main gate means defending 2 forts and 1 castle.  In comparison to Morroc WoE map, forts in morroc are reachable by anybody.  There is no such advantage even when one guild/alliance holds every forts and castle in Morroc.  Why does Prontera get to have the advantage?
 
I can understand when Prontera was the only WoE map available, the main gate being there was not a problem because every guilds that participate in WoE will be on that one map.  If guilds don't work together to take down the main gate they will be all left with South fort to compete.  So it was the best interest for everyone to take down the main gate when there wasn't another map available.

Now, we have Morroc WoE available which opens up more options for forts and castles for guilds.  This also means attacking guilds can be spread between two maps.  The Prontera main gate lost its important status for being "the only option for more forts".  It often stay closed and barely touched for the whole WoE hour.  While guilds take forts/castle in Morroc ignore Prontera completely because the main gate is shutting out 3/4 of the map's opportunity behind it.
 
Just look at the huge difference in terms of attacking/defending difficulties if you compare the two WoE maps.  Why would attackers want to take the harder way out when there is an easier way.  We need to adjust the two WoE maps to make them fair to both the attackers and defenders in order to make both maps active during WoE.  

Orbs
 
Morroc WoE map have 2 orbs to give attacking guilds a chance to open the back gates that lead directly into the castle.  Recalling next to castle emp is available after orb is turned.  Making it extra easy to take castle and extra difficult to defend a castle that has a gate open to welcome recallers 90% of the time.
 
Prontera only have 1 orb and that only open the main gate which is at a distance away from castle.  Attacking guild still have to DPS the castle gates in order to get to the castle emp.
 
Given the limited time we have in WoE, opening the Prontrea main gate and then dps down the castle gate will easily take half the WoE time unless undefended.  While there isn't much time needed to open the back gates in Morroc which lead directly to the castle emp, who wouldn't think Morroc is easier?

Castle Gates
 
Morroc Castle have 3 castle gates where two can be opened by orbs.  The main castle gate is not far from the map entrance (from point 2).
 
Prontera Castle have 2 gates, none of which can be opened by an orb.
 
Again, Morroc castle is much more accessible by any guild weak or strong.

Map & Geography
 
Morroc: There is no main gate in the Morroc WoE map.  The castle front gate that is not openable by orbs can be attacked from all directions.  There is no chok point to stop attackers at a narrow spot except at the spawn point (spawn camping is not allowed!).  It gives a lot of space for attackers to setup what is necessary to take down the front castle gate.
 
Prontera: The castle and two forts are behind a main gate.  The main gate is far from the map entrance and is located at a chok point.  Attacking guilds don't have space to fall behind on or create a setup area because the main gate is facing the the hills/mountains.  The very narrow space in front of the gate make defending guilds can heavily focus on seiging that area and push any attacking guild back to the two sides of the hills.  
 
The two sides of the hills leading to the main gate is another chok point where everyone want to attack the main gate (or go to south fort to turn orb) have to walk through those narrow spaces.  Again this is disadvantageous to any attackers because no matter how many people they bring, they have to get them pass the chok points which are always being motar spammed and seige spammed (catapult created behind the main gate can hit that far).
 
Then when it is in front of the Prontera castle gate, the same situationa again, narrow space leaving attackers little space to run around to dodge seige spam.  One side of each of the Prontera castle gates are against the hills.
 
To illustrate the open area of each map in front of each gate, look at the red area on the picture below.  It is not hard to see why Prontera is easier to defend and harder to get taken:
 
Ail9KSP.jpg
 
 
To sum it up, a guild or an alliance holding all of morroc forts and castles will have to protect up to 5 spots to secure their castle:
 
1. protect the orb at west fort.
2. protect the orb at east fort.
3. protect the castle front gate.
4. protect the east back gate.
5. protect the west back gate.
 
Any of the above protection break will allow attacker direct access into the castle.
 
 
A guild or an alliance holding all of prontera forts and castles will split into 2 forces:
 
1. protect the orb at south fort.
2. protect the main gate.
 
If any of the above protection break, there is also the left and right castle gates to be the second line of defense.
 
Lastly

The design of the Prontera WoE map, to my understanding, was made for Server vs Castle Owner.  So it only make sense BACK IN THE DAYS to give attackers a hard time because it was expected that attackers will out-number defenders.  If we think back in 2013, there was only Prontera castle and the map was built around that idea, 1 castle nothing else.  Then later 3 forts were added to the map and unfortunately 2 of them happened to be behind the main gate.  That wasn't too thoughtful and we are now facing the consequence.  
 
The main gate must have designed to protect the castle and was never meant to protect the forts that were added later.  This is the time for the devs to re-visit the difficulties of Prontera WoE map, reconsider and balance the various features.  Keeping in mind there are forts now and that there is another WoE map people can go to, Prontera WoE isn't the only game in town.
 
In addition to removing the Prontrea main gate, I would also suggest removing the two orbs that opens the Morroc castle back gates.  It is part of my view of level the playing field between Prontera and Morroc WoE maps.  With those two orbs there, we never seen anybody try to attack the back gates of the Morroc castle.  The castle is too accessible, it make any defense at the front gate a waste of effort.  Compare to Prontera castle, the castle gates must be DPSed down, they shouldn't be opened by orbs.

 

 

Hello fellow VCRs and players,

 

Sorry for being unable to catch up with recent discussions lately.

@Cartian: Much theorycraft, but your comment lacks practicality, and probably experience in WoE as well. If you must say, I would say that you didn't attended enough WoE to get some facts right. And in the December WoE, Prontera first gate gets opened up within the first 5 minutes.

 

Geographical analysis, I would not speak much about it as this would provide an insight of strategy to rival guild, but I disagree with what you said as you actually missed out MANY points. Prontera may appear to be a steel fortress, but it also has many downsides. If exploited correctly, it is as easy to siege as Morroc Fortress. MF on the other hands, although it seems pretty open, all of Prontera downsides are not in MF. In fact it has plenty of mechanics which players has yet discovered and put into use (or not, since I have discovered it already but haven't put into use).

 

Back in the old days before there is Orb in South Fortress, people were complaining the Defender has too much of an advantage. I do agree on that, because everyone is locked up at a choke point. The only way to get through to the next line of defense is through breaking the first gate with BRUTE FORCE. And the defender guild could full force focus defense on one spot, which is hard to even focus down as most of the time you get wiped by Siege Weapons AoE, even if you have like 300 people attacking.

 

Then it came the Orb, which forced the Defender to split their force into two, when the attacker has the option to choose where to attack and only need to focus their force on one side, giving the Defender a huge downside, which is already a big nerf to Prontera's defense mechanism. If it's a fight on par with example of 50 players each side, previously it was 50 vs 50. Now the Defender had to split into two, and became 25 vs 50. That's a big cut in the throat.

 

Of course, that is the scenario if comparing like to like. I would disagree on this, as what I think is the problem strongly lies with the players themselves, not the map. You can't possibly compare 20 person hitting on 60 person and blame the map mechanic saying "its too advantageous for the defender", or comparing army of Serenia well-geared players against casual Eddga-geared players, as well as comparing an IQ 160 WoE Commander with another IQ 90 WoE Commander, these are elements that got nothing to do with the map design.

 

As for the "Server vs Prontera" scenario, of course it is not out of the picture. But the thing is, whether is that really the whole "Server's" intention to go all out against Prontera, or not. Therefore it really lies with the players to do what they want. The latest "Server vs Prontera" that I recalled was somewhere in the mid of October, where the other 3 big WoE guilds joint hands to contest us in PF. While the result is that the castle remain defended by us, but we did suffer major losses by losing two forts in PF. Then, probably a side or two realized that the Cons outweight the Pros to go "Server vs Prontera" when they could achieve conquering much more castle or fortresses if they don't. Hence, it's really a matter of choice. Not because it will not happen again, but whether people want to do it or not.

 

Also lastly, the map design has been reworked many times since its initial introduction, which has been improvised in many ways and balanced now. WoE and PVP is not really about the map design, it is about what others think of you. People hate each other because of the people, and people come together also because of the people. Alliance in order to monopoly the PVP scene is very common, or merely just "working together to achieve common goal" is all due to the people themselves. If someone is doing every single possible action to piss everyone off, or plays dirty and exploit bugs that disgusts others, it is certain that you will be attacked because, well people just dislike you. However if you treat everyone with respect, even your enemies, I don't see why someone sitting at a fort is unhappy about the people sitting in the castle unless they think they're a more rightful owner. Even if we could ally another one of other 3 big WoE guild out there in order to monopolize the whole WoE scene, we still remained as standalone because we clearly know that if we do that, it will surely kills WoE. It also lacks the sense of achievement because victory is gained not through competition, hence we would prefer to do it with our own hands. But it is always up to the guild's decision maker whether to team up or not, or rather, whether they want to work together with this bunch of people or not. Changing a map mechanic or two will not have a drastic change in the situation itself. It is a "MMO" played by humans for god's sake, not a mathematical calculation or chemistry atomic compound.

 

Just my two cents, Merry Christmas to everyone. :)

 

P.S. Edited to remove guild names.


Edited by xkazehanax, 20 December 2015 - 11:31 PM.

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#8 Cartian

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Posted 21 December 2015 - 05:49 AM

@Cartian: Much theorycraft, but your comment lacks practicality, and probably experience in WoE as well. If you must say, I would say that you didn't attended enough WoE to get some facts right. And in the December WoE, Prontera first gate gets opened up within the first 5 minutes.

 

I do not appreciate you start out with a baseless assumption which I see it as a poor attempt to discount my view on the subject.  What can you base on to support your claim that I didn't attend enough WoE, lacks practicality and experience in WoE?  If you don't have an explanation, you should take back those words.

 

As donchan put it, the gate was opened by an unknown exploit in the last WoE.  We can't use this to say the gate was easy to open and put the problem aside.  It was not legit.  Nonetheless, it was witnessed that in the last WoE there were a lot more action in Prontera with forts actually changed hands a few times due to the gate being open at the start.  While Morroc castle didn't get much attack for once because the Prontera castle defenders have their hands tied by actually having to do their part on defending each fort and castle gate.  Not just rely on the gate to do the major part of defending for them.

 

 

Geographical analysis, I would not speak much about it as this would provide an insight of strategy to rival guild, but I disagree with what you said as you actually missed out MANY points. Prontera may appear to be a steel fortress, but it also has many downsides. If exploited correctly, it is as easy to siege as Morroc Fortress. MF on the other hands, although it seems pretty open, all of Prontera downsides are not in MF. In fact it has plenty of mechanics which players has yet discovered and put into use (or not, since I have discovered it already but haven't put into use).

 

You fail to explain the "many downsides" you see in Prontera WoE.  How can we take your words for it?  I already explained the many defender advantage of the chok points and narrow spaces in front of the main gate and castle gates in Prontera, in comparison to the Morroc WoE map where attack on gates can be done in a bigger open space.  If you can't share what you see that will support your statement, which I can understand it could give away to rival guilds, well then please don't post or bring up this point.  Nobody can see what is in your mind.

 

Then it came the Orb, which forced the Defender to split their force into two, when the attacker has the option to choose where to attack and only need to focus their force on one side, giving the Defender a huge downside, which is already a big nerf to Prontera's defense mechanism. If it's a fight on par with example of 50 players each side, previously it was 50 vs 50. Now the Defender had to split into two, and became 25 vs 50. That's a big cut in the throat.

 

You forgot there are two undefended forts and one undefended castle behind the main gate.  By this I think you are the one that lacks WoE experience since you fail to realize those forts/castles need defenders if not for the main gate blocking access.  Or you simply take it for granted that those forts/castles don't take human to defend.
 
Look, when there are 3 forts and 1 castle in one map, we should expect there are that many people to cover the defense of each forts and castle.  
 
But due to the existence of the main gate, a guild or an alliance can save all the defense work on the upper 2 forts and castle.  So the people that are supposed to defend east/west forts and the castle are concentrated at main gate and south fort.  This isn't splitting force, this is joint forces.
 
To the attackers, instead of fighting the number they should expect from one fort (say south fort for example), they have to take on up to the number of people from 3+ forts because the upper forts/castle don't need defending.

 

Compare to Morroc WoE map, there is nothing ridiculous like this.  

 

Once again, we need to make Prontera and Morroc WoE maps friendly to both attackers and defenders.  To give people more choice for forts and castles, things locked up cuts out the opportunity.  We even have smaller guilds asking for more forts, but we don't need more forts, we just need to free the locked up forts.

 

Another problem with the main gate being there is if a guild took a fort behind the gate, then when the map reset or when it is next WoE, players from the guild owning the fort cannot get pass the main gate to reach their own fort.  Yes there is the warp NPC but if a rival guild want to be cheap, camp the warp-in fort spawn point, there is nothing the fort owning guild can do about it other than repeatedly warp-in + die and watch fort get taken (immunity buff isn't completely fixed atm).


Edited by Cartian, 21 December 2015 - 06:04 AM.

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#9 xkazehanax

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Posted 21 December 2015 - 07:20 AM

Hello,

 

Now, I believe we don't have any obligation to spoonfeed the enemy on our intel nor disclose everything from our point of view to the public.

 

However, what I have noticed recently is full of baseless or theorycrafted suggestions to change this and that.

 

Let's not put too much of the "I think this is good because it will help us" and "I think that is bad because its unfavorable" into the picture, everyone can say what they want, talk is cheap. But to demand a change that will affect the whole metagame, you need to not only considering one side's comment but everyone in general, speaking out for the community as a whole.

 

If you want to determine something is practical, best thing is use your action to prove it. Well, I am here to help, if constant reset of castle ownership and "Gate is too hard" is what you're talking about. 

 

On 06.01.2016, we will be giving out PF to free-for-all, we voluntarily reset our castle and all forts in PF for the sake of proving whether if resetting will change the situation or not. Every single guild is invited to contest the forts undefended, and we can see how the smaller guilds perform in securing themselves a fort. Meanwhile, we will also try to hold the whole MF because someone said that it is very hard to defend MF and subject to many attacks. Then, we will contest for it again in the next war to see if the removal of first gate is really necessary because it's too hard to down.

 

I do hope that the community understand this sacrifice to voluntarily resetting our own castle as we're trying to provide something more solid as a supporting or to see if there's any difference, and to draw conclusion from there. And I sincerely hope that after this event, people would spout lesser baseless or bad opinion in the future. 

 

Let's keep calm and put an end to this "we think" argument.

 

Merry Christmas everyone and a Happy New Year, have a Prontera Castle for free. :)

 

Thanks.


Edited by xkazehanax, 21 December 2015 - 08:49 AM.

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#10 xkazehanax

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Posted 21 December 2015 - 07:50 AM

I'm sorry, but why do you keep making this out to be all about you and your guild constantly any time someone wants to talk about balancing the game, by changing the flaws?  Why don't you just keep this on topic like he has asked and not go into the giant ego trip that you seem to experience constantly?  You haven't even addressed anything he's said, again, "don't want to disclose intel" that is a very convenient excuse to always use, I guess we should just take your word for everything since you clearly must know better.  Keep your charity, I'd rather fight and end up #fortless.
 

 

Well, still that bad habit of you to bash people against your view ain't it? I don't get why you're mad though or how is this an ego trip.

 

Just to keep things clear. It is not that making this to be me and my guild, just so coincident that we're the owner of PF, and we're more than willing to help to prove a point. You're now demanding a change on something that clearly does not belong to you right now, is our point of view irrelevant? 

 

Rather than all talks, I would prefer to let actions and results speak the conclusion. Something actual. I strongly believe that nobody want something to change just because someone THINKS that it should be like that, unless everyone agrees or it has been proven, talk is cheap. Try to be more rational and considerate in suggestions, look at the big picture as a whole.

 

There is always a risk that we will be unable to take it back. It's also for the fun after all~

 

Okay, nuff' said :)


Edited by xkazehanax, 21 December 2015 - 07:52 AM.

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#11 DietSodaa

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Posted 21 December 2015 - 07:50 AM

 

 

Let's keep calm and put an end to this "we think" argument.

 

 

 

 

Gotta remind u kindly that this is a feedback thread. It should be all about "We think" arguments. U should be calm instead and dont overreact to everything u dont like on the thread.


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#12 xkazehanax

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Posted 21 December 2015 - 08:15 AM

You are the only one putting down or "bashing" someone's ideas with out any facts to back them up using the "intel disclusure" as a convenient excuse to cover up the fact that you don't want to change Prontera map because it favors your domination there.

 

This is a feedback thread, not the WoE map.  Words are what we should be using here, not actions.  What guild you belong to should not matter, but you are all to keen on pointing out who belongs to who and who owns what map.  Get off your high horse.

 

Like I already said, I'd rather try and end up fortless than participate in the farce that you are proposing.

 

I am not proposing anything, this will happen. And I also hope that you don't get too personal or try to relate this as a guild issue. I am basically opening up the map for participation, not only from your side but everyone, not even trying to seek for your approval in any form. Your participation or you ending up fortless has nothing to do with this, because someone else who are sincere to actually wanting to prove something will still do the job.

 

Rather than that, I am curious why some parties are reluctant to prove a point but prefer to only do talking without anything factual to support.


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#13 magpi

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Posted 21 December 2015 - 08:25 AM

Please keep the conversation on topic. This is moving quickly to argument and could be subject to topic closing if it continues.

 

 

To continue the discussion, I do not really have too much new to add. I've already stated before that the design and difficulty of Prontera fortress was made for the population pre-morroc woe. I see the removal of the gate as a decent solution to increase activity on both maps given the current population. 

 

As for Emp radius, I am also unclear on what that means.


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#14 xkazehanax

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Posted 21 December 2015 - 08:38 AM

Please keep the conversation on topic. This is moving quickly to argument and could be subject to topic closing if it continues.

 

 

To continue the discussion, I do not really have too much new to add. I've already stated before that the design and difficulty of Prontera fortress was made for the population pre-morroc woe. I see the removal of the gate as a decent solution to increase activity on both maps given the current population. 

 

As for Emp radius, I am also unclear on what that means.

 

I agree with that and hence not replying on unnecessary comments that would lead to an argument. I am trying to prove a point through our actions by attacking Prontera rather than defending it, to determine if the removal of the gate is really necessary because it is too difficult to get it down and demotivate people to attack. If it is not really overpowered, I am not against it.

 

Regardlessly, we will still be moving out of PF on 06.01.2016. As I have previously stated, WoE is always about the people's decision. Not just merely one or two gates can affect the participation of WoE or where people will attack. It is always up to the people to do as their wish. A big thanks to flukeSG2 for proving and making this point more obvious, as can be seen that decision to participate and direction of WoE is always made by the higher-ups of a guild as per their wish.


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#15 Cartian

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Posted 21 December 2015 - 08:45 AM

Recap

 

Rules:  

Don't bring up guild names.  

No trash talking.  

No Guild drama.

 

What BeepBeeP? Get out of here.  Read the rules, I am requesting posts with any guild name and guild drama to be removed.  This is a feedback topic.

 

In reply to any future event trying to prove something that will fail short of proving anything:

 

 for the sake of proving whether if resetting will change the situation or not. Every single guild is invited to contest the forts undefended, and we can see how the smaller guilds perform in securing themselves a fort. Meanwhile, we will also try to hold the whole MF because someone said that it is very hard to defend MF and subject to many attacks. Then, we will contest for it again in the next war to see if the removal of first gate is really necessary because it's too hard to down.

 

Nobody mentioned to reset WoE, I don't know where that idea is coming from.  This topic isn't about that at all.  You don't have to prove "whether if resetting will change the situation" because nobody ask for it.  It will not be useful.  If you want to gather feedback on this subject alone, you are welcome to create another topic for it.

 

Also your test plan is lacking many elements, this is what is going to happen and it really doesn't relate to this discussion you might as well cut it off.

 

1) Prontera is free for all, guilds will go there ? or not?

2) Your guild will take all of Morroc forts/castle.

3) Your guild will defend Morroc for that WoE.

 

But while half of the people, even smaller guilds, could be going to the buffet at Prontera, you can't test the "hard to defend MF and subject to many attacks" part.  Because in the days when a lot of action going on in Morroc the Prontera main gate is closed (as we seen last WoE the Prontera main gate was opened Morroc WoE immediately took a turn for the boring one).  

 

I shall call this a controlled experiment, not the usual way of action.  It will favor your desirable result to "show" that you can defend MF but the fact is there will not be as many attack as when the Prontera main gate is closed.  The result, whatever it is, will be deemed as invalid..

 

Then when it comes to the next WoE:

 

4) Your guild will try to take back all of Prontera.

 

Yes, but you can't control the result of the previous WoE.  If a few rival guilds got different forts and castle in Prontera, they will definitely not work together as one guild/alliance to defend the main gate and the orb at south fort.  In fact, they will want to pour boiling oil into each other such as opening the gate at the start to shift the load to the inner forts and castle.  

 

In 2 WoE, not a single point can be proven.  Don't think your plan will work at all, don't think too big or important of yourself neither.  Only the devs have the power.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Cartian, 21 December 2015 - 08:49 AM.

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#16 magpi

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Posted 21 December 2015 - 08:58 AM

I am trying to prove a point through our actions by attacking Prontera rather than defending it, to determine if the removal of the gate is really necessary because it is too difficult to get it down and demotivate people to attack. If it is not really overpowered, I am not against it.

 

I don't want to be misunderstood, when I say "difficulty" of the map. The gate itself is not what is difficult. If you compare the frequency in movement and fort swaps in Morroc to Prontera, Morroc's design is done properly. Each fort there depends on the holder to defend it solely. Much time is wasted in Prontera between the holders defending that gate and those trying to take it down, which is why many guilds prefer Morroc. Players want to spend their hour to actually achieve something

 

I also don't feel it was the intent of the design for one guild to own an entire map. I'm not saying this as disrespect to yours or that you did not earn it, I disliked it when my own guild was in the same position pre-merge. Morroc's design makes this very difficult to achieve because of the way natural defenses are set. We've seen too many guilds get demoralized and quit because nothing had been changed over the years. This is 100% not healthy for the game. Morroc was introduced too late to keep people interested, that damage was already done. It wasn't until recently we've seen any change what-so-ever in these maps.

 

What I would like to propose is a "testing season" if this were to be looked at. Remove the gate for a period of time and see how people respond to it. If the feedback is negative or there is no change, it could be placed back in. 


Edited by magpi, 21 December 2015 - 08:59 AM.

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#17 Kuchy

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Posted 21 December 2015 - 09:13 AM

 No, I don’t agree on removal of Prontera’s gate because:

It does not matter if Prontera's WoE landscape was designed in the past / early edition of WoE / or theres a new layout like Morocc Fortress. Each map has their unique mechanics and geographical aspects, it would be better to leave it as such and develop ways to breakthrough instead of suggesting developers re-design or remove elements from a map because the community can't figure out how.

 

Alot of us who still participate in WoE should have played long enough to know the possibilities and what it takes to win wars, isn't that what WoE is about. I've seen alot of people saying WoE is lame / WoE is boring / WoE is too laggy and such but all those are part of the game we all play. If one map is that hard to conquer, the other map is open for contest. I do not play other games that much except for the original Ragnarok Online but do other games also have communities that can tell their developers to remove game elements 'because its too hard so it should be fixed" ? 

 

Regarding Emperium radius, it doesnt matter what the distance is. We've been through the spamming of siege weapons, and the recent fix or change should have pleased people according to several sources. 

 

Last but not least, I do not agree that if a guild defends the main gate, it would cause others to be discouraged and quit PvP / WoE just because the main gate can't be broken down. If people do not go war, it might just be due to other reasons.

 

 

 


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#18 deathdelete

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Posted 21 December 2015 - 09:27 AM

No, I don’t agree on removal of Prontera’s gate because:
It does not matter if Prontera's WoE landscape was designed in the past / early edition of WoE / or theres a new layout like Morocc Fortress. Each map has their unique mechanics and geographical aspects, it would be better to leave it as such and develop ways to breakthrough instead of suggesting developers re-design or remove elements from a map because the community can't figure out how.

Alot of us who still participate in WoE should have played long enough to know the possibilities and what it takes to win wars, isn't that what WoE is about. I've seen alot of people saying WoE is lame / WoE is boring / WoE is too laggy and such but all those are part of the game we all play. If one map is that hard to conquer, the other map is open for contest. I do not play other games that much except for the original Ragnarok Online but do other games also have communities that can tell their developers to remove game elements 'because its too hard so it should be fixed" ?

Regarding Emperium radius, it doesnt matter what the distance is. We've been through the spamming of siege weapons, and the recent fix or change should have pleased people according to several sources.

Last but not least, I do not agree that if a guild defends the main gate, it would cause others to be discouraged and quit PvP / WoE just because the main gate can't be broken down. If people do not go war, it might just be due to other reasons.

That opinion is biased and I disagree, prontera gate is not for one guild to sit on for am easy "map defense" it should be taken down due to its natural mechanics of defending bop and bos being obsolete with the forts not giving buffs any longer. If anybody has any argument against this please give me a 100% unbiased non bulls hit opinion. WOE was not made to monopolize it's for multiple guilds to enjoy anybody who says otherwise is toxic and should uninstall.

Edited by deathdelete, 21 December 2015 - 09:27 AM.

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#19 7843140731162112220

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Posted 21 December 2015 - 09:42 AM

WOE was not made to monopolize it's for multiple guilds to enjoy anybody who says otherwise is toxic and should uninstall.

Prontera gate is enjoyable tho, offense and defense both.

Well if Dev did remove prontera gate, wish next they will remove castle gate too :3

Last woe is good already when gate opened within 5min, enjoyed but still same result. Maybe suggest for castle gate remove later.
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#20 hakuon1988

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Posted 21 December 2015 - 11:20 AM

:heh: how about i suggest remove Morroc WoE east fort orb and west fort orb ....  :sob:  :sob:  :sob:  too stress  :yawn:  :yawn:  :yawn: 


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#21 Mugenjou88

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Posted 21 December 2015 - 12:34 PM

I'll stick to the topic  :)

i don't agree, why would you need to remove the gate when you can break it in less than a minute?

let me show you how long does it take to break down the gate with 30M HP. [Fact]

JMCzFcn.png

 

 it makes other guild lose hope to destroy the main gate and just quit on PVP-ing or attend WOE. 

i think this video will give other guild motivation to not give up or even losing hope  :)

Spoiler

 

WoE is not about gate, but about people and their strategy. People make all the decision and choose whether to attack or not.

 

Thank you.

 

Casual Player


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#22 Lenalee18

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Posted 21 December 2015 - 01:21 PM

That opinion is biased and I disagree, prontera gate is not for one guild to sit on for am easy "map defense" it should be taken down due to its natural mechanics of defending bop and bos being obsolete with the forts not giving buffs any longer. If anybody has any argument against this please give me a 100% unbiased non bulls hit opinion. WOE was not made to monopolize it's for multiple guilds to enjoy anybody who says otherwise is toxic and should uninstall.

I agree WoE was not made to monopolize but considering the amount of players that attend and the number of guilds that actually have an interest on PvP it is only natural that it would happen.Changing the map just because " it is too good" is unacceptable give a better reason why a map redesign should be considered. This game is not about equality, but being fair.Also defending a gate and a orb is also a hard task, it splits the defending guild in two. are you saying one whole guild is not able to bypass that? also in recent WoEs the gate has been opened fairly early in game but at the end is the same results. Its not the map, its the players. Lets put an example, right now the game is in a phase where you need to grind in order to level up, some maps are good for grinding others are not, but does that mean you need to change that map just because it makes grinding harder? eh NO you find another option


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#23 hakuon1988

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Posted 21 December 2015 - 01:50 PM

I agree with you lenalee ( the amount of players that attending of guild ) that the problem....
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#24 donchan

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Posted 21 December 2015 - 02:08 PM

Also defending a gate and a orb is also a hard task, it splits the defending guild in two.

 

How is defending any WoE gate or orb hard to do?

 

Gate = Spam seige, shield boomerang, and judex.  All three of these things take no effort to do and can even be macroed on alts (which sadly a lot of people do).

 

Orb = Spam AOE... Again, requires no effort; any low level player, alts, or even a bot can accomplish this.

 

As for splitting up the guild, not necessary to do on Pront.  The main gate and the choke point to South fort is right next to each other.
 


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#25 Lenalee18

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Posted 21 December 2015 - 03:08 PM

So going back to Cartian's post, how is it fair that 3 objects of possession north of the main get get to go without any kind of defense as opposed to Morroc map which is wide upon and easily contested?  We are talking about fairness correct?  If we want to talk about numbers of players and the lack there of, we should simply close the Morroc WoE map all together.  We simply don't have the player base to support it.  However, that is highly unlikely to happen, so as a result as several people have cited detailed examples, we believe that the main Prontera gate should be removed in the interests of fair play as you said you believe there should be.  It's not about equality, removing the main gate in Prontera by no means makes anything equal.

i believe closing MF would make things more interesting :P and fun you cant compare one map to another they all different and that was the point. if all maps were the same its just plain boring you dont like challenges? then you shouldnt even bother playing a game. its fair because the gate is not impossible to open and everyone can break it any minute is just a matter of players willingness to try. why dont you?


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