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Rogue

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As a novice rogue, I feel the only thing that needs to change is the x2 from hide along with the assassin class.  Of all the classes I have played in game, rogue seems to be extremely well rounded and a very technical class to play.

https://trello.com/c...vl/16-dual-stab

https://trello.com/c...-rolling-cutter

https://trello.com/c...2-mark-of-death

https://trello.com/c...moonlight-dance

- I will address these all at once.  You are talking about buffing a class to compete with damage levels that exist right now.  Everyone knows that Swordsman class hits to hard, but just because they hit too hard doesn't mean the answer is to buff everyone else to that level.  The only reason Rogue isn't as viable is because of sustainability during a fight where there is TOO much damage.  If other classes did not put out as high of level damage a Rogue would last longer in a fight outside of a hidden state and be able to easily build combo points to use their ultimate attack.  Rolling cutter's DoT does not need to be increased, it's a Melee class with poison on it's daggers it is not a magic using class.  It serves it's function beautifully if you ask me and that is to keep other Rogues, Assassins or even Rangers from re-entering hide state, forcing them to remain out in the open and more vulnerable.  Any casting of a skill outside of a self buff should automatically remove you from hide state as it is in some form of an attack on an enemy player.  So casting Mark of Death from hide should not allow you to remain hidden.  It's the same reasoning behind guild skills being cast from a hidden state.  You are altering the condition of an enemy player or npc so of course you should be brought out of your hide state.  Why Rogues insist on comparing Moonlight Dance to Grimtooth I do not know.  If you are jealous of the class' skill go play an Assassin.  Moonlight Dance is probably the stongest single target attack in the game without a doubt.  That alone should explain to you why the cool down period for such a skill is longer.  You should not be able to just run around and Moonlight Dance every 10 seconds.  You simply can not compare the damage of Moonlight Dance to Grimtooth.

Simply put you are talking about wildly buffing one of the strongest and well balanced classes we have left in the game and that is absolutely not the correct course of action to take.  I look forward to when Battle Tactics and x2 from hide receive the much needed nerf and that will make this class a much more sustainable one during extended pvp fights.

https://trello.com/c...r/18-smoke-bomb

- That's with both hide classes, it's nothing broken with the skill it just has to do with ping to the server.  In fact I've experienced the exact opposite of this several times and had the exact opposite happen to my attacks.  I have survived hits of 100k damage because of Smoke Bomb being cast at exactly the same time as a fatal hit.  It even reflects in my damage log that I sustained the hit, yet did not die.  Also I've given rogue player what would be a fatal hit but they lived thanks to casting Smoke Bomb at exactly the same time.  Example for an Assassin is that I cast my fatal strike on them just as they go into hide state and they still die.

Edited by flukeSG2, 11 January 2016 - 07:23 PM.

I can't comment on PvP Rogue, because I just don't do it.

However, doing Osiris runs at ML11-23 really makes that AOE (rolling cutter feel under powered). I accept that for a balanced class both PvP and PvE sides must be balanced and compromises have to be made. However, every other skill a rogue has (with one exception) feel very single target focused which isn't brilliant when grinding through master levels (condors, mukas, osi etc etc). I mean we're not a tank, but when it comes to dps I feel (pve) that Wiz, Sorc, Ranger, Warrior, and Cres all have us beat with regard to AOE strength. It's that disparity I'd like addressed. Kinda depressing standing around seeing every other class getting picked for grinding.

Just my two cents so-to-speak.

Maybe make skills work different at PvP and PvE side like in some games? But guess it's will be hard to implement already...

I can't comment on PvP Rogue, because I just don't do it.

 

However, doing Osiris runs at ML11-23 really makes that AOE (rolling cutter feel under powered). I accept that for a balanced class both PvP and PvE sides must be balanced and compromises have to be made. However, every other skill a rogue has (with one exception) feel very single target focused which isn't brilliant when grinding through master levels (condors, mukas, osi etc etc). I mean we're not a tank, but when it comes to dps I feel (pve) that Wiz, Sorc, Ranger, Warrior, and Cres all have us beat with regard to AOE strength. It's that disparity I'd like addressed. Kinda depressing standing around seeing every other class getting picked for grinding.

 

Just my two cents so-to-speak.

you really shouldn't compare dps aoe attack with warriors, as they have BT and warriors need the aoe damage to keep aggro, ranger's arrow shower damage is really weak, and crec strong point is their pet (can't say about wiz/sorc). dps class should be devastating on a single target so that is why i think they are (if not already overpowered) a balanced style class.

I can't comment on PvP Rogue, because I just don't do it.

 

However, doing Osiris runs at ML11-23 really makes that AOE (rolling cutter feel under powered). I accept that for a balanced class both PvP and PvE sides must be balanced and compromises have to be made. However, every other skill a rogue has (with one exception) feel very single target focused which isn't brilliant when grinding through master levels (condors, mukas, osi etc etc). I mean we're not a tank, but when it comes to dps I feel (pve) that Wiz, Sorc, Ranger, Warrior, and Cres all have us beat with regard to AOE strength. It's that disparity I'd like addressed. Kinda depressing standing around seeing every other class getting picked for grinding.

 

Just my two cents so-to-speak.

I have no issue raising the damage output of rolling cutter a bit.  However, I remember having it maxed when I was originally leveling my rogue and the dps output for my grind sessions was quite sufficient and sometimes surpassed the dps of my cres and I died because of it.  Rolling cutter is a fast AoE.  AoE were never meant to be the big devastating attacks that sometimes they are.

I'm just going off how quickly I can dispatch groups of enemies with my rogue vs how fast I can do it with other chars, and from a pure 'speed' point-of-view. My Ranger's arrow shower and my Sorc's AOE attack (LoV) can level a group of enemies a lot quicker. However as I said earlier it's just my two cents, and in cases like this we abide by the majority.

On the subject of 'out dps-ing', I would class that as 'out threat-ing'. It's happened to me when I've taken focus from the tank, which I feel shouldn't be possible. The only other times it happens is with multishot on my ranger but I think that's more a case of 'getting first hit' on mobs that were only 'lured' but not 'hit'. Generally if I stick to arrow shower I pull no aggro. However kinda wondered off 'Rogue topic' there. As above, I'm just saying what I feel and I'm completely comfortable with people disagreeing, all I want is what we all want....a balanced game, right ?

Edited by 9539130505041340330, 12 January 2016 - 07:07 PM.

Discussion:

https://trello.com/c...-rolling-cutter

Your Feedback:

Players shouldn't forget about the animation time (other games call that channel duration or global cooldown).

Rolling Cutter has an animation time of 1.5sec and can therefore be used 40 times per minute.

If you compare it with other skills like Brandish Storm, etc. that have an animation time of 3.0sec,

you should compare the total damage per minute (or simply double the damage of Rolling Cutter).

Example:

40x Rolling Cutter: 40 * 182% = 7,280%

20x Brandish Storm: 20 * 443% = 8,860%

20x Magnus Exorcism: 20 * 536% = 10,720%

24x Grand Cross: 24 * 308~338% =  7,392~8,112%

40x Shadow Fang: 40 * 168~198% = 6,720~7,920%

If you just compare these numbers alone, Brandish Storm deals ~21% more damage.

But let's not forget the additional DoT (ticks every 2sec)

30x DoT ticks (1 stack): 1 * 30 * 27% = 810% => 8090% total

30x DoT ticks (3 stacks): 3 * 30 * 27% = 2430% => 9710% total

So depending on the number of DoT stacks, the Rolling Cutter isn't that bad at all.

And if you keep in mind that the DoTs still ignore armor (defense rates),

the DoT might end up dealing more damage than the normal attack itself. I.e.

Rolling Cutter vs. 75% defense rate: 45.5% every 1.5sec (30.3% per sec)

3 DoT stacks vs. 75% defense rate: still 81% every 2.0sec (40.5% per sec)

Brandish Storm vs. 75% defense rate: 110.75% every 3sec (36.9% per sec)

Of course, this excludes other effects that influence how much damage is actually dealt,

like Battle Tactics, Penetration, ATK-boosts or the good old weapon damage differences.

But I hope I could clearify that it isn't just about the printed skill percentages alone.

Therefore, fixing all the other parameters // ascendencies might be more reasonable..

And If the DoT is the problem, simply remove it and increase the damage to 220~280%.

Edited by Greven79, 02 February 2016 - 08:59 AM.

Topic Title
[Thief] Make Acrobatic (Ranger) a Thief skill
 
Severity:
???
 
Problem:
Every class should have powerful tools to avoid AoEs. By nature, melee classes tend to be in greater danger (there are several PvE bosses with a self-centered, full-circle AoE). Smoke Bomb & Shadow Armor are the existing tools, but they have some major flaws. If the skill can't be used frequently, the skill has to be kept available & must stay untouched. If the skill can be used too frequently, the thief class feels less like a DPS and more like tanky class.

Both the Assassin and the Rogue ought to be hit-&-run classes that shouldn't be able to rely on their armor, defense or damage reduction (can't rely on stealth during longer fights either).

Steps to Reproduce:
Choose any available PvE boss and try to avoid as many AoEs as possible. Repeat the same process using a ranged-DPS class. Compare effort involved. Next, try to hit a manned siege waepon as often as possible (dealing no damage to exclude these inbalances)) and try to dodge as many AoEs as possible at the same time. Compare the result using a ranged-DPS class instead.
 
Suggestion:
Well, make Acrobatic (Ranger) a Thief skill.

That way, you can increase survivability without relying on damage reducing effects or permanent speed boosts // slow debuffs. This way, the developers  will also be able to nerf those aspects instead. And of course, it's a active skill that requires a proper timing. More than activating an ongoing defensive buff. So this idea would match the flavor or concept of the class with it's gameplay.

In regard of the Ranger, that class can still make use of it's range advantage and temporary speed bonus (via Wind Walk). These two aspects have then to be rebalanced of course.
 

 

Edited by Greven79, 02 February 2016 - 11:10 AM.

Topic Title
[Thief] Make Acrobatic (Ranger) a Thief skill
 
Severity:
???
 
Problem:
Every class should have powerful tools to avoid AoEs. By nature, melee classes tend to be in greater danger (there are several PvE bosses with a self-centered, full-circle AoE). Smoke Bomb & Shadow Armor are the existing tools, but they have some major flaws. If the skill can't be used frequently, the skill has to be kept available & must stay untouched. If the skill can be used too frequently, the thief class feels less like a DPS and more like tanky class.

 

Both the Assassin and the Rogue ought to be hit-&-run classes that shouldn't be able to rely on their armor, defense or damage reduction (can't rely on stealth during longer fights either).

 

Steps to Reproduce:
Choose any available PvE boss and try to avoid as many AoEs as possible. Repeat the same process using a ranged-DPS class. Compare effort involved. Next, try to hit a manned siege waepon as often as possible (dealing no damage to exclude these inbalances)) and try to dodge as many AoEs as possible at the same time. Compare the result using a ranged-DPS class instead.
 
Suggestion:
Well, make Acrobatic (Ranger) a Thief skill.

 

That way, you can increase survivability without relying on damage reducing effects or permanent speed boosts // slow debuffs. This way, the developers  will also be able to nerf those aspects instead. And of course, it's a active skill that requires a proper timing. More than activating an ongoing defensive buff. So this idea would match the flavor or concept of the class with it's gameplay.

 

In regard of the Ranger, that class can still make use of it's range advantage and temporary speed bonus (via Wind Walk). These two aspects have then to be rebalanced of course.
 

 

Are you saying remove Acrobat from Ranger tree all together and place it on Rogue?  What "get away" skill will you then give Ranger?   Why will Rogue have two "get away" skills?  Smoke bomb is already an extremely effective get away skill.  Now for PvE discussion, I think Rogues and Assassins are getting the raw end of the stick, with the increased difficulty.  However I've seen both Rogues and Assassins survive dungeons like Wonderland Hard without dying, it's all about playing your class to it's potential.

Are you saying remove Acrobat from Ranger tree all together and place it on Rogue?  What "get away" skill will you then give Ranger?   Why will Rogue have two "get away" skills?  Smoke bomb is already an extremely effective get away skill.  Now for PvE discussion, I think Rogues and Assassins are getting the raw end of the stick, with the increased difficulty.  However I've seen both Rogues and Assassins survive dungeons like Wonderland Hard without dying, it's all about playing your class to it's potential.

Multipe points:

Are you saying remove Acrobat from Ranger tree all together and place it on Rogue?

No, I'd like to move it to the thief skill tree. That means both Assassins and Rogues get access to it.

What "get away" skill will you then give Ranger?
Depends on what you call a "get away" skill. Rangers can already fight from a "secure distance" (range advantage), have Wind Walk as a short speed boost, have several low-cooldown slow effects (Impact Arrow, Freezing Trap), a root effect (Anklesnare) and are the only (pure) ranged-DPS class wearing leather armor.

Why will Rogue have two "get away" skills? Smoke bomb is already an extremely effective get away skill.

Smoke bomb has a min. cooldown of 90sec isn't that practical to avoid critical situations (mobs might reset, ongoing DoTs might put you out of hide).

On contrast, the Assassin has a constant speed bonus, a low-cooldown AoE-slow effect (is even requested to be optional) and an overly powerful Shadow Armor.

I think that Acrobatic would be ideal to help balance both classes. The Roque would get a low-cooldown "get away" skill that doesn't end combat. And the Assassin can be nerfed by removing the AoE-slow and by rebalancing Shadow Armor without lowering the overall class survivability.

However I've seen both Rogues and Assassins survive dungeons like Wonderland Hard without dying, it's all about playing your class to it's potential.

And my response was neither about a particular content nor about "playing the class to it's potential". That's all too dependant on certain facts (f.e. pet damage / heals; vigor rates, etc). And I can still remember the times where rogues were usually the first to go down. That's why my suggestion was more about a gameplay concept and general balance.

Multipe points:

 

Are you saying remove Acrobat from Ranger tree all together and place it on Rogue?

No, I'd like to move it to the thief skill tree. That means both Assassins and Rogues get access to it.

 

What "get away" skill will you then give Ranger?
Depends on what you call a "get away" skill. Rangers can already fight from a "secure distance" (range advantage), have Wind Walk as a short speed boost, have several low-cooldown slow effects (Impact Arrow, Freezing Trap), a root effect (Anklesnare) and are the only (pure) ranged-DPS class wearing leather armor.

 

Why will Rogue have two "get away" skills? Smoke bomb is already an extremely effective get away skill.

Smoke bomb has a min. cooldown of 90sec isn't that practical to avoid critical situations (mobs might reset, ongoing DoTs might put you out of hide).

 

On contrast, the Assassin has a constant speed bonus, a low-cooldown AoE-slow effect (is even requested to be optional) and an overly powerful Shadow Armor.

 

I think that Acrobatic would be ideal to help balance both classes. The Roque would get a low-cooldown "get away" skill that doesn't end combat. And the Assassin can be nerfed by removing the AoE-slow and by rebalancing Shadow Armor without lowering the overall class survivability.

 

However I've seen both Rogues and Assassins survive dungeons like Wonderland Hard without dying, it's all about playing your class to it's potential.

And my response was neither about a particular content nor about "playing the class to it's potential". That's all too dependant on certain facts (f.e. pet damage / heals; vigor rates, etc). And I can still remember the times where rogues were usually the first to go down. That's why my suggestion was more about a gameplay concept and general balance.

I could not disagree more.  Assassins and Rogues do not need the acrobat skill.  Rogues have a slowing effect as well.  Also, you can lower smoke bomb cool down to 20 seconds, so unless you have nearly 0 vigor no one's smoke bomb is going to be 90 seconds.

Assassins do not have a constant speed boost.  Hiding Exceed only works "in hide" just like the name implies, it's a 30% speed increase while in hide only.  Secondly, from practical stand point, smoke bomb is far more effective and stronger in the sense of a "get away" tool than shadow armor is.  Shadow Armor gives 5 seconds of 100% damage immunity, but you remain out of hide and can be stunned.  After 5 seconds passes Shadow Armor is reduced to 50% defense increase.  So while you might with stand some damage for a bit, unless you've made a clean get away, you will remain out of hide and most likely die (speaking from a PvP stand point).  Smoke bomb in comparison is 5 seconds of invulnerability while in hide, meaning they can't even see where you go to try and stun you.  If they manage a stun before it takes hold, you will still be in hide and able to get away once the stun loses it's effect.  The only thing able to take them out of hide at this point would be a dot of some kind, like poison.

I don't see how this is balancing anything.  Removing Rangers acrobat, one of their advantages to put distance between them and an enemy and not replacing it with anything is absurd, if simply running fast is good enough for a ranger, then it should be good enough for an Assassin (or even a Rogue).  Placing that skill onto a tree that has these options already is more absurd.  Speaking strictly from the PvE side I don't see how giving them Acrobat increases their survivability any more so than the skills they already have at their disposal.  Using acrobat to avoid an AoE is all based on timing just as much as using smoke bomb or shadow armor would be.

I don't understand why people keep insisting that shadow armor is over powered, obviously have not played the class.
 

Shadow armor is over pwoered if you have like 10 second CD you can get a perma shadow armor (with of course 5 seconds 50%) but in party it remains op as hell t get perma shadow armor or nearly perma

Shadow armor is over pwoered if you have like 10 second CD you can get a perma shadow armor (with of course 5 seconds 50%) but in party it remains op as hell t get perma shadow armor or nearly perma

I don't understand why people keep insisting that shadow armor is over powered, obviously have not played the class.
 

I could not disagree more.  Assassins and Rogues do not need the acrobat skill.  Rogues have a slowing effect as well.  Also, you can lower smoke bomb cool down to 20 seconds, so unless you have nearly 0 vigor no one's smoke bomb is going to be 90 seconds.

To achieve a 20sec cooldown, it would require a 78% vigor rate. So feel free and show me that you achieved this cooldown. If you secretly included Dirty Plan to your calculation, it would still take >60% vigor rate to achieve an average cooldown of 20sec. If you don't trust me, you can post your calculation.

Independant of these facts, it's no surprise that you've coincidentally ignored the part that my suggestion is independant of the current vigor rates. Simply put, vigor rates of 60% or more creates a lot of bad things. Any argument based on the existance of such an inbalanced part is doomed right away.

Assassins do not have a constant speed boost.

Well, than they must have changed Shadow Form, right?

Secondly, from practical stand point, smoke bomb is far more effective and stronger in the sense of a "get away" tool than shadow armor is.

Where did I compare these two sklls?

if simply running fast is good enough for a ranger, then it should be good enough for an Assassin (or even a Rogue).

Since you must have overlooked that part of my response as well: There's a difference between a ranger and thief classes: Range! Therefore, to 'simply run' isn't the same. Assume a 15~25m full-circle AoE centered on a PvE boss (just check PvE Arena). Whereas the thiefs be close to the boss, a ranger stands 20m away. In order to leave the area of effect, a ranger would just have to step a few meters. Rogues and assassins couldn't do that at all.

If you wish, I could also make a more complex scenario, explaining the importance of an attack ankle and that a melee range increases the number of possible attackers (f.e. in case of short-range siege weapons).

And of coures, you simply ignored the part where I wrote that rangers still have a temporary speed boost and low-cooldown slow effects.

If you really want to discuss this further, please make some qualified and verified statements, fluke.

To me, this just looks like a meaningless rant because you couldn't help yourself in another thread.

To achieve a 20sec cooldown, it would require a 78% vigor rate. So feel free and show me that you achieved this cooldown. If you secretly included Dirty Plan to your calculation, it would still take >60% vigor rate to achieve an average cooldown of 20sec. If you don't trust me, you can post your calculation.

 

Independant of these facts, it's no surprise that you've coincidentally ignored the part that my suggestion is independant of the current vigor rates. Simply put, vigor rates of 60% or more creates a lot of bad things. Any argument based on the existance of such an inbalanced part is doomed right away.

 

 

Well, than they must have changed Shadow Form, right?

 

 

Where did I compare these two sklls?

 

 

 

 

Since you must have overlooked that part of my response as well: There's a difference between a ranger and thief classes: Range! Therefore, to 'simply run' isn't the same. Assume a 15~25m full-circle AoE centered on a PvE boss (just check PvE Arena). Whereas the thiefs be close to the boss, a ranger stands 20m away. In order to leave the area of effect, a ranger would just have to step a few meters. Rogues and assassins couldn't do that at all.

 

If you wish, I could also make a more complex scenario, explaining the importance of an attack ankle and that a melee range increases the number of possible attackers (f.e. in case of short-range siege weapons).

 

And of coures, you simply ignored the part where I wrote that rangers still have a temporary speed boost and low-cooldown slow effects.

 

If you really want to discuss this further, please make some qualified and verified statements, fluke.

To me, this just looks like a meaningless rant because you couldn't help yourself in another thread.

First of all the 20 seconds is from what I hear other more geared rogue players boast about.  My own rogue has 41 seconds a far cry from the 90 seconds you stated.  Yes I overlooked shadow form having the 30% increase on movement speed as well as physical attack.  I'm pointing out the fact that rogue class already has probably the best get away tool of all the classes, second only to shadow armor.  Your argument is completely invalid because in the situation where a boss to use an aoe, why wouldn't the assassin or rogue not just use their current get away tools?  You are talking about robbing one class and buffing another needlessly.  Where are you leaving rangers who are a "ranged" class who would be unable to create range between themselves and their attackers?  Have you forgot that several classes have gap closers?   Acrobat is used to once again create that gap.  Compare the cast time/animation it takes to use ankle snare and wind walk vs the cast time/animation time of just the acrobat skill.  My ranger is only ML7 currently, but wind walk has nearly 3 times the cool down.  Rogues and assassins don't need gap, they are melee fighters who are supposed to be up close and the two skills they have, smoke bomb and shadow armor are designed to allow protection in close proximity and as a tool to create distance and get away so they can strike again.  Are these qualified and verified enough for you?  Your suggestions are that of someone who knows nothing of the classes in question.  You don't see me in the Wizard Class Balance section making random ill informed suggestions now do you?  So please, in the future, actually play these classes long enough to make educated suggestions about changes.

Let me add a scenario for you, from the PvP side.  A possible combo for rogue if acrobat were in it's skill tree, starting in hide Dirty Plan->Moonlight Dance->Smoke Bomb->Acrobat, do you not see the issues there?

Just to make things extra clear, I'm arguing the point that adding this skill to thief tree for both rogue and assassin to use is shifting the balance further towards them and away from rangers.  If you proposed replacing smoke bomb or shadow armor with the acrobat skill instead, well I'd still disagree with that.  Acrobat is for ranged fighters it was designed with that in mind.  You are making it sound that the cool down for acrobat is much lower than that of smoke bomb (granted this one is much higher, but that is because this is as I have said the strongest survive skill of all the classes I've played) and shadow armor, which really isn't the case.  I'll let you do the math since you love it so much, wouldn't acrobat only go as low as 10 seconds cool down just like shadow armor?  Next you've proposed no changes to rangers to supplement their loss, claiming they have all the skills necessary, I also disagree with that.  I believe rogue and assassin have the skills necessary to do their job already.

Edited by flukeSG2, 08 February 2016 - 03:20 PM.

First of all the 20 seconds is from what I hear other more geared rogue players boast about.  My own rogue has 41 seconds a far cry from the 90 seconds you stated. 

You still use broken vigor rates to justify your point. That's the difference to my approach. I already suggested to lower vigor rates in order to fix triple pets, perma-stuns, perma-Ymir and skill-to-skill balance. For example:

With 70% vigor:

Double Strike: 250%; 1.5sec animation time;

Cross Impact: 700%; 1.5sec animation time; 2.4s cooldown

Shadow Strike: 581%; 1.5sec animation time; 3.0s cooldown

Shadow Expl: 1,070%; 1.5sec animation time; 3.0s cooldown

So vigor renders Double Strike obsolete. A player can iterate between Cross Impact & Shadow Strike instead. Furthermore, vigor increased the DPS output by approx. 67% (you wouldn't understand the calculation anyways). And this makes vigor superior to any other item stat choice (except for PvP-centric options maybe). The same way, a 75% vigor rates enables Shadow Armor to be up the whole time, rendering the Assassin immune to damage half of the time. And it allows makes it possible to create a 5sec stun every 5sec (via Lightning Walk).

I'm pointing out the fact that rogue class already has probably the best get away tool of all the classes, second only to shadow armor.  Your argument is completely invalid because in the situation where a boss to use an aoe, why wouldn't the assassin or rogue not just use their current get away tools?

Simply imagine a more reasonable vigor rate, like 25%. Now, the cooldown of Smoke Bomb would be >67sec. And what would you do now, if PvE bosses like Eddga (or like most of the LotS bosses) create a self-centric AoE every 20~60sec? You would have no choice but to soak the damage! And due to the fact that Rogues rarely increase their defensive capabilities, there's a high chance the rogue gets killed. And that's what happened alot during LotS era in CoA, AoD or the PvE arena.

Sure, you can now fix every single aspect EXCEPT vigor, but that's the least effective solution and hardly doable because vigor rates differ greatly between ML1 & ML40.

You are talking about robbing one class and buffing another needlessly.  Where are you leaving rangers who are a "ranged" class who would be unable to create range between themselves and their attackers? Have you forgot that several classes have gap closers? Acrobat is used to once again create that gap.

That's IMO s distorted chain of arguments. Rangers (as well as Wizards, Sorcerers, Priests, Soulmakers & Crecentias) start with an inherent range advantage. Cap closers are the fix to this range advantage, negating it from time to time. Acrobatic is then a negation of the "fix". In the end, what would be left is the inherent range advantage (as you've said: "To create the gap again"). And due to the fact that Ranger can use Impact Arrow to slow melee attackers and have many skills that can be activated while moving. the inherent range advantage turn into the impossibility for a melee class to fight back. Maybe that's your idea of balance, but it's not mine.

Wizards are the only other ranged class that has a "gap opener" (teleport). But that's because they neither have heals, nor the armor value of a Ranger, nor any stealth, nor a Wind Walk equivalent and most of their skills have a casting time.

My ranger is only ML7 currently, but wind walk has nearly 3 times the cool down.

And that's exaclty the point. The primary defensive options are the slows (Freezing Trap & Impact Arrow), and maybe the root (Anklesnare). The movement speed bonus just ought to be the more powerful, yet rarely available alternative, mainly used to avoid AoEs or against targets that are immune to slows

Rogues and assassins don't need gap, they are melee fighters who are supposed to be up close and the two skills they have, smoke bomb and shadow armor are designed to allow protection in close proximity and as a tool to create distance and get away so they can strike again. 

Of course they are in need for a gap or "gap opener", as this would be their main tool against ganks (multiple targets focussing their fire on them). Other melee classes like Wariors, Knights, Monks and Beastmasters have higher defense rates, higher hitpoint totals and more defensive skills (and were once commonly equipped with defensive gear). Crecentias - the hybrid class between melee & ranged - can use a variety of CC-effects instead.

Just remember the time where you couldn't run to a corner to reactivate hide in the Colloseum... or simply imagine a Rogue being hit by a DoT. Now, would a Smoke Bomb help you in these situations?

A possible combo for rogue if acrobat were in it's skill tree, starting in hide Dirty Plan->Moonlight Dance->Smoke Bomb->Acrobat, do you not see the issues there?

Assuming a normal vigor rate, the rogue wouldn't be able to do that more than once every 100sec. Not that threatining. And that excluding the fact that Dirty Plan shouldn't work in stealth mode either.

I'll let you do the math since you love it so much, wouldn't acrobat only go as low as 10 seconds cool down just like shadow armor?

Math is a hard... Acrobat has a stating cooldown of 20sec, Shadow Armor one of 40sec. Assuming a 75% vigor rate that lowers the latter down to 10sec, Acrobatic would go down to 5sec (just like all the other gap closers would). Assuming more appropriate vigor rate however, Acrobatic wouldn't drop below 15sec.

Next you've proposed no changes to rangers to supplement their loss, claiming they have all the skills necessary, I also disagree with that.

Nope, there's a difference between the number of options and their effectiveness. If you would have read my replies more carefully, I already wrote that - although I don't see the necessity to increase the number of options - the effectiveness might still have to be reconsidered.

But hey, I bet rogues were the king of Coloseum during LotS and rangers only dared to visit it, after they've maxed Acrobatic. And CoA, AoD or ChD groups would have rather invited a third rogue than a single ranger. Or maybe that's al long gone and there isn't a single person who would rather revert the game to this LotS state than to keep on going with the current state. Maybe the 75% vigor rate has fixed the game, or maybe lowering the cooldown of Smoke Bomb from 120 -> 90sec and adding a 3~5sec damage reduction has already sloved it all. Or maybe, I just got my math and don't know the class, right? - So why am I not terrified that you don't like the idea, fluke?

Edited by Greven79, 09 February 2016 - 10:19 AM.

You still use broken vigor rates to justify your point. That's the difference to my approach. I already suggested to lower vigor rates in order to fix triple pets, perma-stuns, perma-Ymir and skill-to-skill balance. For example:

 

With 70% vigor:

Double Strike: 250%; 1.5sec animation time;

Cross Impact: 700%; 1.5sec animation time; 2.4s cooldown

Shadow Strike: 581%; 1.5sec animation time; 3.0s cooldown

Shadow Expl: 1,070%; 1.5sec animation time; 3.0s cooldown

 

So vigor renders Double Strike obsolete. A player can iterate between Cross Impact & Shadow Strike instead. Furthermore, vigor increased the DPS output by approx. 67% (you wouldn't understand the calculation anyways). And this makes vigor superior to any other item stat choice (except for PvP-centric options maybe). The same way, a 75% vigor rates enables Shadow Armor to be up the whole time, rendering the Assassin immune to damage half of the time. And it allows makes it possible to create a 5sec stun every 5sec (via Lightning Walk).

 

 

Simply imagine a more reasonable vigor rate, like 25%. Now, the cooldown of Smoke Bomb would be >67sec. And what would you do now, if PvE bosses like Eddga (or like most of the LotS bosses) create a self-centric AoE every 20~60sec? You would have no choice but to soak the damage! And due to the fact that Rogues rarely increase their defensive capabilities, there's a high chance the rogue gets killed. And that's what happened a lot during LotS era in CoA, AoD or the PvE arena.

 

Sure, you can now fix every single aspect EXCEPT vigor, but that's the least effective solution and hardly doable because vigor rates differ greatly between ML1 & ML40.

 

 

That's IMO s distorted chain of arguments. Rangers (as well as Wizards, Sorcerers, Priests, Soulmakers & Crecentias) start with an inherent range advantage. Cap closers are the fix to this range advantage, negating it from time to time. Acrobatic is then a negation of the "fix". In the end, what would be left is the inherent range advantage (as you've said: "To create the gap again"). And due to the fact that Ranger can use Impact Arrow to slow melee attackers and have many skills that can be activated while moving. the inherent range advantage turn into the impossibility for a melee class to fight back. Maybe that's your idea of balance, but it's not mine.

 

Wizards are the only other ranged class that has a "gap opener" (teleport). But that's because they neither have heals, nor the armor value of a Ranger, nor any stealth, nor a Wind Walk equivalent and most of their skills have a casting time.

 

 

And that's exactly the point. The primary defensive options are the slows (Freezing Trap & Impact Arrow), and maybe the root (Anklesnare). The movement speed bonus just ought to be the more powerful, yet rarely available alternative, mainly used to avoid AoEs or against targets that are immune to slows

 

 

Of course they are in need for a gap or "gap opener", as this would be their main tool against ganks (multiple targets focusing their fire on them). Other melee classes like Warriors, Knights, Monks and Beastmasters have higher defense rates, higher hit point totals and more defensive skills (and were once commonly equipped with defensive gear). Crecentias - the hybrid class between melee & ranged - can use a variety of CC-effects instead.

 

Just remember the time where you couldn't run to a corner to reactivate hide in the Colosseum... or simply imagine a Rogue being hit by a DoT. Now, would a Smoke Bomb help you in these situations?

 

 

Assuming a normal vigor rate, the rogue wouldn't be able to do that more than once every 100sec. Not that threatening. And that excluding the fact that Dirty Plan shouldn't work in stealth mode either.

 

 

Math is a hard... Acrobat has a stating cooldown of 20sec, Shadow Armor one of 40sec. Assuming a 75% vigor rate that lowers the latter down to 10sec, Acrobatic would go down to 5sec (just like all the other gap closers would). Assuming more appropriate vigor rate however, Acrobatic wouldn't drop below 15sec.

 

 

Nope, there's a difference between the number of options and their effectiveness. If you would have read my replies more carefully, I already wrote that - although I don't see the necessity to increase the number of options - the effectiveness might still have to be reconsidered.

 

But hey, I bet rogues were the king of Colosseum *(really? two different spellings both wrong in one post?) during LotS and rangers only dared to visit it, after they've maxed Acrobatic. And CoA, AoD or ChD groups would have rather invited a third rogue than a single ranger. Or maybe that's al long gone and there isn't a single person who would rather revert the game to this LotS state than to keep on going with the current state. Maybe the 75% vigor rate has fixed the game, or maybe lowering the cooldown of Smoke Bomb from 120 -> 90sec and adding a 3~5sec damage reduction has already solved it all. Or maybe, I just got my math and don't know the class, right? - So why am I not terrified that you don't like the idea, fluke?

Let's get this straight I'm stating facts.  I'm giving information directly from game.  I'm sorry you disagree with the fact that vigor is what it is.  Your entire argument is based around a change to vigor you didn't even mention in your original suggestion, am I supposed to be a mind reader here?  Why don't you just assume that only this skill gets moved and everything else remains as is.  Let's also assume that Dirty Plan works just as it does now and not how you want it to work (without mentioning that either).  Now try to imagine that combo I told you about once again.  Also just so you know before I continue, I happen to agree with the fact that vigor rates are too high, but that wasn't what we were speaking about now was it?

I don't see that argument as distorted at all.  It's not an "advantage" it's the type of class they are.  That's like saying knights have the "advantage" of heavy armor, well if that's the case what skill does a ranger have to "remove" that "advantage"?  Also, how does moving this skill from rangers to thief tree, not just move this "advantage" to another class?  Another class that has other "advantages" already.

I'm not particularly terrified of your idea either, because it has no basis in reality and from the sounds of it you don't understand several classes let alone this one.  While there are several things wrong with this game, this is not one of them and I think it's safe to say that this will never happen.  So I am not worried.

By the way, spelling and grammar are hard.  I've gone through and fixed all of yours again in the quote.  Enjoy! :3

it's ≠ its while we're at it.

I find removing the Acrobatic skill from the ranger just absurd even if we can find a rational behind Greven's reasoning. Thieves don't need it and it would feel awful to have it moved to another class.

it's ≠ its while we're at it.

 

I find removing the Acrobatic skill from the ranger just absurd even if we can find a rational behind Greven's reasoning. Thieves don't need it and it would feel awful to have it moved to another class.

Yep, you got me.  I used it several times with an apostrophe incorrectly.

Let's get this straight I'm stating facts.  I'm giving information directly from game.  I'm sorry you disagree with the fact that vigor is what it is.  Your entire argument is based around a change to vigor you didn't even mention in your original suggestion, am I supposed to be a mind reader here?  Why don't you just assume that only this skill gets moved and everything else remains as is.  Let's also assume that Dirty Plan works just as it does now and not how you want it to work (without mentioning that either).  Now try to imagine that combo I told you about once again.  Also just so you know before I continue, I happen to agree with the fact that vigor rates are too high, but that wasn't what we were speaking about now was it?

 

I don't see that argument as distorted at all.  It's not an "advantage" it's the type of class they are.  That's like saying knights have the "advantage" of heavy armor, well if that's the case what skill does a ranger have to "remove" that "advantage"?  Also, how does moving this skill from rangers to thief tree, not just move this "advantage" to another class?  Another class that has other "advantages" already.

 

I'm not particularly terrified of your idea either, because it has no basis in reality and from the sounds of it you don't understand several classes let alone this one.  While there are several things wrong with this game, this is not one of them and I think it's safe to say that this will never happen.  So I am not worried.

 

By the way, spelling and grammar are hard.  I've gone through and fixed all of yours again in the quote.  Enjoy! :3

See fluke, we already had this discussion. That's why I referred to Trello in the first place.

And by nature, making multiple suggestions will result in multiple. separate entries//replies. Otherwise it would be a long list that can't be allocated to any class. So this has something to do with logical thinking, not mind reading.

And if you would just continue that thought, you might eventually realize why I haven't stated that this is based on a particular vigor rate and formulated it this way: "If the skill can't be used frequently, the skill has to be kept available & must stay untouched. If the skill can be used too frequently, the thief class feels less like a DPS and more like tanky class."

Take your time!

No? Well, let me help you. The transfer task was to convert "frequent usage" into "vigor rate". and the keyword is interdependency. That means that I don't care about the "how". There many possible reasons why things have changed or will be perceived differently. The starting cooldown might be different, the SP cost might changed and could prevent a use. Or you might be stunned too often that you can't use it, or there might be tools to discover invisible character that would change the use of these skills completely..

So to rephase it once again:

I already talked about the disadvantages of rogues during LotS. In my opinion, the changes the devs made with the introduction of AoV haven't improved the situation, but made things worse. Adding an overly powerful 5sec damage immunity to Shadow Armor made the class too dependant on that skill (or the oneshots of course), just like Battle Tactics did with the Swordsman classes. Adding a damage reduction to a low-cooldown, combat-ending Smoke Bomb, wasn't IMO the smartest move either. That's why I was looking for alternative solutions that would increase the survivability of both classes without copying effects of tank classes (another distinct role).

And that's the reason why I couldn't care less if you need it right now or think that those players who achieved an impossible 78% vigor rate would need it. That's the difference between an alternative and a necessity.

Oh, and feel free to correct my spelling mistakes... And I hope you don't mind if I switch to my first language:

Auch wenn du die Fertigkeiten deiner eigenen Klasse nicht kennt und keine Prozentrechnung beherrscht, bist du so ja wenigstens als Tippse.

Edited by Greven79, 10 February 2016 - 01:46 PM.

That's why I was looking for alternative solutions that would increase the survivability of both classes without copying effects of tank classes (another distinct role).

...by taking away a survivability skill of another class and not replacing it, claiming they have enough.  I believe rogue and assassin already have their necessary skills and adding this to their repertoire would unbalance things more in their favor.  Secondly, you did not link to trello in the "first place", it was your
third reply that you put that link.

Also, yes I will continue to spell check your English and point them out to you, since you are so kind as to point out others mistakes with math and look down upon when they make them.

Edit:  As a side note, just like now, not many people would put Acrobat at 3/3 because the skill itself is only so useful, there is no point in further leveling it past 1/3.  At level 1/3 the skill cool down is 40 seconds, at 75% vigor (do you see where I'm going here?) it would be 10 seconds exactly like Shadow Armor is for an assassin.  Now of course we are talking about a rogue here mainly, but you said for it to be placed into the thief skill tree for both to use.  So of course it would still be a shorter cool down than smoke bomb.

Edited by flukeSG2, 11 February 2016 - 12:43 AM.

...by taking away a survivability skill of another class and not replacing it, claiming they have enough.  I believe rogue and assassin already have their necessary skills and adding this to their repertoire would unbalance things more in their favor.  Secondly, you did not link to trello in the "first place", it was your third reply that you put that link.

First of all, it doesn't have to be without a replacement. As I said, I would buff the remaining 'survivability' skills the ranger has, if it turns out to be necessary. I just wouldn't add another one. In other words, I'd prefer a quality compensation over quantity compensation.

I also wrote that adding Acrobatic (I don't think they changed the name to 'Acrobat' btw.) to the skill set of thieves would allow them to undo (or to reconsider) some of the changes they've made.

Oh & btw. I wouldn't even care if it's a roll and not a backward flip or if would have a shorter range, but I believe the current version would be sufficient and the most cost-efficient realization. So basically, my suggestion is to give thieves an evasive maneuver commonly seen in other video games, like The Witcher or Dark Souls. But if you don't like the idea,think this wouldn't be appropriate for melee classes in leather armor or rather prefer to use a damage reduction (or Smoke Bomb + overpowered heal pets against a tough but soloable field boss), that's fine. It's just a suggestion.

Which brings me to the more unpleasant parts:

Topic Title
[Thief] Make Acrobatic (Ranger) a Thief skill
...
Suggestion:
Well, make Acrobatic (Ranger) a Thief skill.

Do you want to tell me, these Trello links aren't from my first reply? Or what did you have in mind when you wrote: "you did not link to trello in the "first place", it was your third reply that you put that link." And that brings me to the issue about math:

Also, yes I will continue to spell check your English and point them out to you, since you are so kind as to point out others mistakes with math and look down upon when they make them.

Ask yourself what poses the greater risk: Too many typos in a foreign language or using the wrong method to calculate percentages. You made the classic mistake there. It's just like calculating the cost of a product without the value-added tax. And if I remember correctly, I simply warned you about your calculation. If that's already enough to state that I "look down" on you, I can't help but call it an over-exaggeration. But sure, I get quite imperious if my arguments or motives are called into question. Simply because I spend a lot of time to verify and to explain them.